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View Poll Results: What haplogroup is the most interesting to you?

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  • R1a

    6 13.64%
  • R1b

    3 6.82%
  • T

    4 9.09%
  • G

    4 9.09%
  • I1

    3 6.82%
  • I2

    11 25.00%
  • E1b1b

    3 6.82%
  • N1c

    3 6.82%
  • J1

    1 2.27%
  • J2

    6 13.64%
  • Q

    0 0%
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Thread: What is the most interesting Y-DNA haplogroup?

  1. #1
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    What is the most interesting Y-DNA haplogroup?

    Please choose what you believe to be the most interesting haplogroup in Europe; and explain to me why and how. Give your opinion in detail.


    I, personally, would say haplogroup T is the most interesting. It is the most mysterious to me. I do believe many subclades of T were Caucasian in origin. But I am wondering how it got into Europe. I am surmising it originated in an Anatolian people; and was spread around Europe. Possibly by Greeks and Romans with Etruscan admixture.


    What is interesting, is that Italy; especially in the Central region; carries this haplogroup at an over 7% frequency. It is almost completely absent in North Africa; which suggests a Near Eastern and Non-African origin. It couldn't have come there from Moors or other Muslim conquests.

    Edit: Please don't vote for your own. Just because it's your haplogroup. If you vote for your own; please give a good explanation why.
    Last edited by Melancon; 19-12-14 at 08:05.

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    As long as we don't all just vote for our own Haplogroups :)

    I think G is really interesting, and represents something unique.

  3. #3
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    Write-in: C. It's extremely ancient; it has been showing up in several ancient samples; it's rare now in Europe but has an interesting distribution; lots of mystery.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Write-in: C. It's extremely ancient; it has been showing up in several ancient samples; it's rare now in Europe but has an interesting distribution; lots of mystery.
    I was going to put in C and L. But I had already chose 11 answers to my poll and got lazy.

  5. #5
    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
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    Not haplo wise, but the most controversal famous persons belong to E - Einstein, Hitler, Napoleon.. Good and evil geniuses.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Not haplo wise, but the most controversal famous persons belong to E - Einstein, Hitler, Napoleon.. Good and evil geniuses.
    Thanks for bringing this thread back to life.

  7. #7
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    Want more opinions !! : /

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    I have always sort of envied R1a.

  9. #9
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    For me T is most enigmatic. What group of people carried it around to spread around Europe?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    For me T is most enigmatic. What group of people carried it around to spread around Europe?
    I am guessing the Etruscans or the Raetic speakers; and people of Anatolia. It may have been picked up by Greeks, Romans and to a small degree; Celts.

  11. #11
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I am guessing the Etruscans or the Raetic speakers; and people of Anatolia. It may have been picked up by Greeks, Romans and to a small degree; Celts.
    Possibly. At the beginning however I'm sure they had something to do with Neolithic Farmers, perhaps in late Neolithic. Possibly something to do with Mediterranean seafaring culture, like Minoan Crete and others alike, before IE invasion. The lost sons of Atlantis? ;)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    For me T is most enigmatic. What group of people carried it around to spread around Europe?
    If they retest all K2 ( old T ) and K9 samples from all studies between 2000 to 2012, and find out if they where T or L , then the the story might be different.

    With the Tarim Basin samples ,all noted and where R1a1 with one K9 , that K9 was retested and is T1a2 ..............something along this vein would make a difference.

    When all is said and done, the only origin found for T is the pre-T marker, ...LT-P326 ............origins stated around eastern Iran/pakistan/india area

    maybe L in europe would be interesting ,
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  13. #13
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    I notice that there's a blob of haplogroup T in Russia, in pretty much the same spot as one of the main concentration points for a particular subclade of R1a (M558). Now I'm wondering why that is - I wouldn't expect to find any particular connection between T an R within the last several thousand years. I'm not surprised to find both at various levels in Europe, obviously, but why that one blob of T in that particular part of Russia?

  14. #14
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    Estonian T probably got there from culture in that Russian point. Some finno-ugric guys.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Possibly. At the beginning however I'm sure they had something to do with Neolithic Farmers, perhaps in late Neolithic. Possibly something to do with Mediterranean seafaring culture, like Minoan Crete and others alike, before IE invasion. The lost sons of Atlantis? ;)
    It's interesting on that map how, in the Southern area of France; Haplogroup T seems to peak in France; where it is almost virtually absent in the North. (Brittany/Normandy) Marseille used to be an ancient Greek colony/trading post.

    It also seen in Spain at a high frequency; which may suggest some Greek colonists may have had intermarriage with Celtiberian and Iberian/pre-Basque people. There was also probably a Roman dissemination several centuries later; during the Roman Empire which contributed to an even higher frequency in the Iberian peninsula.

    It also peaks at the Northern tip of Estonia which is very interesting; and seems to suggest that this area may be a somewhat isolated region. Probably like Cantabria, Spain or the mountains of Switzerland.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    It's interesting on that map how, in the Southern area of France; Haplogroup T seems to peak in France; where it is almost virtually absent in the North. (Brittany/Normandy) Marseille used to be an ancient Greek colony/trading post.

    It also seen in Spain at a high frequency; which may suggest some Greek colonists may have had intermarriage with Celtiberian and Iberian/pre-Basque people. There was also probably a Roman dissemination several centuries later; during the Roman Empire which contributed to an even higher frequency in the Iberian peninsula.

    It also peaks at the Northern tip of Estonia which is very interesting; and seems to suggest that this area may be a somewhat isolated region. Probably like Cantabria, Spain or the mountains of Switzerland.
    It also peaks in places where ancient phoenicians used to live.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I notice that there's a blob of haplogroup T in Russia, in pretty much the same spot as one of the main concentration points for a particular subclade of R1a (M558). Now I'm wondering why that is - I wouldn't expect to find any particular connection between T an R within the last several thousand years. I'm not surprised to find both at various levels in Europe, obviously, but why that one blob of T in that particular part of Russia?
    From what I read from the Gubina study in 2011, these are the Tuvians and Uyghur people ..................maybe they came out of the Kazaks as the study showed 38% where T.

    but Kazaks where only created as a race in the 15th century from Uzbeks, Tajiks and Altai

  18. #18
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    Since there are 20% of T1 in sason region of kurdish/armenian area .......the area in question is from the zaza people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaza_people_in_Turkey

    the zaza people according to this link below ........origins of the kurds , covers this T1 area

    see map

    http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...83640239,d.c2E

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    From what I read from the Gubina study in 2011, these are the Tuvians and Uyghur people ..................maybe they came out of the Kazaks as the study showed 38% where T.

    but Kazaks where only created as a race in the 15th century from Uzbeks, Tajiks and Altai
    What are you talking about? Gubina's 2013 study of the population in the Altai-Sayan region? The spot I'm talking about is the one in western Russia. Why is there T there, in the same place that there's a heavy concentration of one particular subclade of R1a? And why is there T above that, in the Baltic? A migration of T from the Caucasus, obviously, but associated with what particular population movement?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    What are you talking about? Gubina's 2013 study of the population in the Altai-Sayan region? The spot I'm talking about is the one in western Russia. Why is there T there, in the same place that there's a heavy concentration of one particular subclade of R1a? And why is there T above that, in the Baltic? A migration of T from the Caucasus, obviously, but associated with what particular population movement?
    I don't have an explanation for that either. R1a and T co-existing together at a similar frequency in a population seems quite bizarre. Do you know which subclade is younger? Even more bizarre if the subclade of T was younger than the subclade of R1a.

    I would guess; roughly, if the T subclades are older than R1a subclades ... then maybe most Uralic speakers were originally of predominantly Haplogroup T and then gradually absorbed R1a; long before N1c gradually came along and replaced them both as dominant haplogroups, as well. Haplogroup T and Haplogroup R1a then probably became minorities.


    Edit: What would be particularly interesting is if we could try and study and determine the origins of both Uralic (Finno-Ugric) and Tyrsenian (Etruscan, Raetic) language groups. Both are non Indo-European languages that are assumed to have been born in the East. (Russia/Caucausus) and migrated West into Europe. I wonder if Tyrsenian peoples carried haplogroup T at a very high frequency. And wondering if there may be a relation between both language groups long long ago.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    What are you talking about? Gubina's 2013 study of the population in the Altai-Sayan region? The spot I'm talking about is the one in western Russia. Why is there T there, in the same place that there's a heavy concentration of one particular subclade of R1a? And why is there T above that, in the Baltic? A migration of T from the Caucasus, obviously, but associated with what particular population movement?
    Gubina took information from 2011 study by Matthew C. Dulik

    The study shows Uzbeks, Uyghurs, Altai, Krygyz, Tajiks, Tuvians etc all coming from same area of modern Kazakstan...........they most likely moved to this place you refer as Uyghurs basic homeland is currently there.

    Why is there T there you ask..........well T is 20000 years older than R haplogroup, so IMO, they migrated there, maybe for hunting what else.

    T in the baltic ( Estonia ) ...........migrated because the marker is 20000 years older than R and so went on the hunt...........also note there is 5% of T1 in gotland........but IMO this is due to the vikings slave trade, could be the same for Estonia..........was Estonia a viking homeland ( a midway stopover ?).

    Ask yourself why is there R in estonia. The answer is the same for T or any other haplogroup

  22. #22
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I don't have an explanation for that either. R1a and T co-existing together at a similar frequency in a population seems quite bizarre. Do you know which subclade is younger? Even more bizarre if the subclade of T was younger than the subclade of R1a.

    I would guess; roughly, if the T subclades are older than R1a subclades ... then maybe most Uralic speakers were originally of predominantly Haplogroup T and then gradually absorbed R1a; long before N1c gradually came along and replaced them both as dominant haplogroups, as well. Haplogroup T and Haplogroup R1a then probably became minorities.


    Edit: What would be particularly interesting is if we could try and study and determine the origins of both Uralic (Finno-Ugric) and Tyrsenian (Etruscan, Raetic) language groups. Both are non Indo-European languages that are assumed to have been born in the East. (Russia/Caucausus) and migrated West into Europe. I wonder if Tyrsenian peoples carried haplogroup T at a very high frequency. And wondering if there may be a relation between both language groups long long ago.
    T marker is over 20000 years older than any R marker

    Maybe the 2012 paper by russian expert,
    I would like to mention that haplogroup L and T have been studied in Russia and I hope we can get a synthesis on this list.
    Indeed, both L and T have been studied in terms of their haplotypes, base (deduced ancestral) haplotypes, and TMRCAs, both intraclade and interclade ones. Results are published (mainly in Russian) in the Proceedings in the July 2011 issue, then October, November, and December issues, and in the 2012 February issue.
    Coming back to haplogroups L and T, they might well have a common SNP, but it was a looooong time ago. In fact, it comes back to the times when all other non-African haplogroups have arisen, that is around 60,000 ybp. Since then haplotypes L and T went apart VERY significantly. Their 22-marker haplotypes, composed of the slowest markers, differ by 15 mutations (!), and each mutation in the slowest 22 marker panel adds some 6,000 years. More accurate calculations result in 93,000 years between common ancestors of haplogroups L and T, and THEIR common ancestor, LT, lived ~ 58,000 years ago. Talk about how "close they are". They can be technically in one group all right, however, their haplotypes tell a more adequate story regarding their history.
    The analysis of the haplotype tree of haplogroup T results in 13 distinct branches. Their base haplotypes, all thirteen, are listed on p. 1489 of the July 2011 issue of the Proceedings, http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net

    Regards,

    Anatole Klyosov


    note: L and T has been found to have a common SNP ...this is P326

    IIRC, He called T the pre-R1a marker because there is only one slow mutation difference between R1a and T
    I will try to find the pdf paper of 2 years ago on the subject

    The T1 in raetic lands makes up close to 5% with another 4% of L ..........this study belows aims to say the markers for raetics ( which are Ladins ) was not from the middle east
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201906a.html

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Possibly. At the beginning however I'm sure they had something to do with Neolithic Farmers, perhaps in late Neolithic. Possibly something to do with Mediterranean seafaring culture, like Minoan Crete and others alike, before IE invasion. The lost sons of Atlantis? ;)

    In Europe, I agree it looks, except for the spot in Russia, like a spread by seafarers. I don't think the Phoenicians are a good bet...no Phoenicians in mainland Italy or Greece. The Greeks are better, but they didn't have that kind of presence in northeastern Italy or interior southern France (Marseilles was a trading city; they didn't colonize the way they did in Magna Graecia), and conversely, they had a big presence in north eastern Sicily and yet there's none there.

    That leaves the Neolithic. The map is sort of misleading. We're talking about very small percentages, with the dark areas indicating a frequency of about 4%. The Indo-Europeans and later the Germanics could easily have halved it to about 2% in central Europe, and the Slavic migrations later on in the northern Balkans could have done the same thing. That seems normal to me for a minor lineage.

    On the other hand, I'm sure T is not monolithic. It's just that unfortunately all the research is going toward the R clades. It didn't all need to arrive at the same time either. One cluster might have arrived in the Neolithic, one, perhaps a downstream clade, with Greeks, another with Phoenicians, and a group that was in the northern Caucasus could have been swept along with the original Indo-European movements and wound up stranded far to the north. It might be analogous to the situation with G in Italy. Boattini found at least four separate clusters from four different migrations, one that he thought could be mesolithic there, but was at least Neolithic, and one late cluster that was probably Indo-European.


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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IIRC, He called T the pre-R1a marker because there is only one slow mutation difference between R1a and T
    I will try to find the pdf paper of 2 years ago on the subject

    The T1 in raetic lands makes up close to 8% with another 4% of L ..........
    Interesting ... Not to change the subject here ... BUT I think I read a report on the haplogroup samples of the Basque population recently. And there was an unusual finding of Y-DNA haplogroup L1b. (formerly known as L3) but it was at a very very small percentage. I'll have to try and dig up the source some where; but I found that to be bizarre and fascinating. (it may indicate that Y-DNA haplogroup L was in Europe and Western Europe at one point, a long long time ago.)

    Wait; here is the source right here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#Europe

    Gipuzkoa L1b is found in 1.7% of Gipuzkoans

    (according to Young 2011)

  25. #25
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In Europe, I agree it looks, except for the spot in Russia, like a spread by seafarers. I don't think the Phoenicians are a good bet...no Phoenicians in mainland Italy or Greece. The Greeks are better, but they didn't have that kind of presence in northeastern Italy or interior southern France (Marseilles was a trading city; they didn't colonize the way they did in Magna Graecia), and conversely, they had a big presence in north eastern Sicily and yet there's none there.

    That leaves the Neolithic. The map is sort of misleading. We're talking about very small percentages, with the dark areas indicating a frequency of about 4%. The Indo-Europeans and later the Germanics could easily have halved it to about 2% in central Europe, and the Slavic migrations later on in the northern Balkans could have done the same thing. That seems normal to me for a minor lineage.

    On the other hand, I'm sure T is not monolithic. It's just that unfortunately all the research is going toward the R clades. It didn't all need to arrive at the same time either. One cluster might have arrived in the Neolithic, one, perhaps a downstream clade, with Greeks, another with Phoenicians, and a group that was in the northern Caucasus could have been swept along with the original Indo-European movements and wound up stranded far to the north. It might be analogous to the situation with G in Italy. Boattini found at least four separate clusters from four different migrations, one that he thought could be mesolithic there, but was at least Neolithic, and one late cluster that was probably Indo-European.
    IMO, after its creation around gedrosian, it went to south caucasus, it then migrated very early with G via southern anatolia, through the balkans , north italy, south france and into Iberia.........mostly avoiding the very cold weather at the time. The "gap" in the balkans near slovenia and croatia to me represents the later slavic migration that overwhelmed the indigenous people , for those areas.

    The levant, Egypt, saudi arabia peninsula and african zone markers are all noted as being younger than the south caucasus. ( ther is a paper on this )
    The south caucasus markers are younger than the gedrosian, afghan, himalyan area

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