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Thread: New map of haplogroup R1a-M458 (Y-DNA)

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Arrow New map of haplogroup R1a-M458 (Y-DNA)

    I have created a new map of R1a-M458, a lineage which I associate with the Corded Ware expansion and which peaks in West Slavic countries today. The Underhill et al. 2014 paper provided a rough distribution map of R1a-M458, but I wasn't satisfied by its accuracy (it is auto-generated, not hand-made like mine). For example I have drawn the exact data for the Caucasus and the Volga-Ural region. I have also recalculated some percentages based on my Y-DNA frequencies. It does not affect a lot of regions, but in some cases the gap is considerable, and Underhill et al. had far fewer samples. E.g. for Hungary I have over 800 samples totalling 29.5% of R1a, while Underhill et al. had 18.6% of R1a out of 113 samples.

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    Elite member arvistro's Avatar
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    Thanks! Very useful.

    Edit: based on this map it seems that m458 never went into Italy as part of Goths, Langobards or other East Germanic tribal unions.
    So, interesting ideas about connecting this marker to East Germans are not correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have created a new map of R1a-M458, a lineage which I associate with the Corded Ware expansion and which peaks in West Slavic countries today. The Underhill et al. 2014 paper provided a rough distribution map of R1a-M458, but I wasn't satisfied by its accuracy (it is auto-generated, not hand-made like mine). For example I have drawn the exact data for the Caucasus and the Volga-Ural region. I have also recalculated some percentages based on my Y-DNA frequencies. It does not affect a lot of regions, but in some cases the gap is considerable, and Underhill et al. had far fewer samples. E.g. for Hungary I have over 800 samples totalling 29.5% of R1a, while Underhill et al. had 18.6% of R1a out of 113 samples.
    Very interesting! Thanks! I have been waiting for R1a subclade maps for a while. This one looks very interesting and awesome.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Nice map thank-you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1b Z2103+ with updated frequency map below R1b CTS7822+CTS-9219+



    R1bM269+L23+[L51-]
    R1b-Z2103+CTS7822+9219+5578+ in many ways reflects the same pattern and has many samples within this region of R1a-M458
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap
    9219+ -5587+.png
    H. event.


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    Regular Member Ike's Avatar
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    You could start adding a small time stamp on your new maps. Like Dec 2014.

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    Without referencing the studies/sample data you are using these maps are worthless.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Without referencing the studies/sample data you are using these maps are worthless.
    WTH the map was totally generated with sources. You think someone like Maciamo would just go and make and generate maps like this for no reason? Look up the subclade of M458; there will be pages with several sources on DNA gathering by country and number and percentage...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
    .
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
    .
    I agree about it not resembling Corded Ware, I would say Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1).

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I agree about it not resembling Corded Ware, I would say Scythian -> Sarmatian -> Slavic. Corded Ware would be Z284, but Corded Ware and Scythian sharing a common origin (as evidenced by mtDNA H2a1).
    what language spoke Scyths/Sarmats? wasn't it Iranic?
    what would be the common Corded Ware / Scythian origin?

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    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is so rare in Scandinavia that I have my doubts that it was carried around with Corded Ware. It resembles Slavic Expansion more than anything.
    .
    of course, M458 were the northern Slavs, the northern Slavs were just one of many corded ware tribes

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    M458 joins Croats, Czechs and Poles (Lechs?).
    About Croats this is written:
    Some historians present opinions, that ancient Croats were of Scytho-Sarmatian[2] or OghurTurkic[3][4] origin.
    This is from wiki about "White Croats": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
    As you see from wiki they probably came from modern Polish territory. Also there are theories of their ethnonime as Iranian.

    Poles had romantic theories of being descendants of Sarmatians...

    I say there is some chance of M458 being Sarmat marker..

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    So Maciamo, which is the subclade of R1a in Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    So Maciamo, which is the subclade of R1a in Italy?
    on the map where R1a is shown in north-east italy , it is Z280

    the R1b is L2
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    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    M458 joins Croats, Czechs and Poles (Lechs?).
    About Croats this is written:
    Some historians present opinions, that ancient Croats were of Scytho-Sarmatian[2] or OghurTurkic[3][4] origin.
    This is from wiki about "White Croats": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats
    As you see from wiki they probably came from modern Polish territory. Also there are theories of their ethnonime as Iranian.

    Poles had romantic theories of being descendants of Sarmatians...

    I say there is some chance of M458 being Sarmat marker..
    It isn't necessarily descendants of Sarmatians ... Scythians and other Indo-Aryans (because the Slavs are not; they are descendants of SLAVS) if anything, they are more likely to be relative to Indo-Aryans, but were not Indo-Aryans ... distinct tribes who carried the same paternal Haplogroup clade of R1a and were related. (the tribes were likely undocumented by Greeks and Roman sources. we will probably never know.)

    Of course it's very likely that Slavic people do have Sarmatian or Scythian in them; but I would guess that the mixture would not be very exaggerated ... I also believe that Indo-Aryans may have carried G2a at a very high frequency ... which would explain why the Alans/Ossetians carry this Y-DNA at a high frequency and R1a is a little more rare.

    Just to simplify things for everyone.

    (Also, I think I heard a theory ... that the Thracians were originally Indo-Aryans themselves ... but the Greeks renamed them Thracians, because they inhabited Thrace. But don't take my word for it... research this claim yourselves. I have no idea if this is true. The etymology of the word Thrace is even more mysterious.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Of course it's very likely that Slavic people do have Sarmatian or Scythian in them; but I would guess that the mixture would not be very exaggerated ... I also believe that Indo-Aryans may have carried G2a at a very high frequency ... which would explain why the Alans/Ossetians carry this Y-DNA at a high frequency and R1a is a little more rare.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians#Genetics
    The Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours (bolded parts mine).

    So, who knows. Without ancient dna all I can do is speculate :)

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    on the map where R1a is shown in north-east italy , it is Z280
    Most of the R1a in Italy is the eastern European Z280>CTS1211 (common around Poland and Ukraine), which I believe was brought by the Goths. Nevertheless there is little bit of M458, but only above 1% in South Tyrol and the Friulian Alps.

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    Thanks for this GREAT map, man!

    How I do understand this map? Well, as you can see the variance of R1a in Europe is not high. R1a entered Europe from West Asia*(Maykop? Leyla-Tepe?) and the population exploded after that. High distribution of R1a in some parts of Europe is due to a bottleneck, because they are all the same.


    * I do belong to a R1a* Y-DNA haplogroup which is older than the European R1a, and I'm an Ezdi Kurd and belong to an 'Iranoid' race. Although, most Iranoid folks outside Kurdistan that belong to R1a are mostly R1a-Z93, so make your conclusions…

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    Regular Member Ike's Avatar
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    @Maciamo

    Are you sure nothing's wrong with coloring. You say you get 30% in Hungary, but it doesn't match that shade of orange. Your map says 5-10%

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    Very Interesting map, thanks for sharing.

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    Dear Maciamo, do you know which data for Croats is correct, that of Underhill 2009 or Underhill 2014? Or at least why they differ so much? In the supplementary info of both papers it is stated Croats mainland and total number of sampled n=108, also the same with the islands. But the strange is that the results following this are different.

    Data of Underhill 2009:
    Croatia mainland(n=108): R1a- 26.9%; xM458- 24.1%, M458- 2.1%
    Osijek: R1axM458- 37.9%, M458- 0%
    Split: R1axM458- 16.9%, M458- 9%
    Korcula: R1axM458- 12.7%, M458- 3%
    Brac: R1axM458- 22.4%, M458-2%
    Krk: R1axM458-24.3%, M458- 12.2%
    Hvar: R1axM458-6.6%, M458- 0%

    Results of Underhill 2014:
    Croats mainland (n=108 !): R1a - 28.7, M458- 19.4%

    For me not only the changed results, but the high M458 in Croats is strange, since it is so rare among their neighbours. As far as I know the only place where M458 is more than Z280 is possibly Rijeka, the source reads c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg in Google

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    Yeah, it is strange considering the fact most R1a Croats on publicaly avilable projects are Z280 insted of M458.

    According to historical sources our origins are from Western Slavic lands , which are rich in M458, yet I'm not convinced it is dominant subclade among Croats.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think we should email the authors of the team of Underhill to try to clear that out. The issue is especially strange and interesting to me. I'd also suggest that Z280 is more in Croats. Probably Zagreb and west Croatia are with more M458 if you see this map:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmonde View Post

    I confused

    This source uses R1a1a1g for Z-283

    http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA20120300005_14498334.pdf

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmonde View Post
    Dear Maciamo, do you know which data for Croats is correct, that of Underhill 2009 or Underhill 2014? Or at least why they differ so much? In the supplementary info of both papers it is stated Croats mainland and total number of sampled n=108, also the same with the islands. But the strange is that the results following this are different.

    Data of Underhill 2009:
    Croatia mainland(n=108): R1a- 26.9%; xM458- 24.1%, M458- 2.1%
    Osijek: R1axM458- 37.9%, M458- 0%
    Split: R1axM458- 16.9%, M458- 9%
    Korcula: R1axM458- 12.7%, M458- 3%
    Brac: R1axM458- 22.4%, M458-2%
    Krk: R1axM458-24.3%, M458- 12.2%
    Hvar: R1axM458-6.6%, M458- 0%

    Results of Underhill 2014:
    Croats mainland (n=108 !): R1a - 28.7, M458- 19.4%

    For me not only the changed results, but the high M458 in Croats is strange, since it is so rare among their neighbours. As far as I know the only place where M458 is more than Z280 is possibly Rijeka, the source reads c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg in Google
    That's a very good question. An doubly odd as it is the same team specialised in hg R1a, using apparently the same 108 samples, who reports such opposite results for R1a subclades in Croatia. I don't know what happened there. I would think that the newer data is the correct one and that they just hadn't tested thoroughly enough the first time. The FTDNA data show that almost all Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian R1a is Z280. So after all it's possible that Underhill's team misreported the data, inserting it in the M458 column when it should have been in the Z280 column.

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