New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)

[Srbadija]

There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.

[baltek]

Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?

[Dibran]

It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.

Well you’re obviously dead wrong now. Considering the recent paper on Hums/Avars found Z280 in non-Slavic elite graves. That’s why it’s important not to be decisive and act like we have all the facts. You can’t possibly be an authority of ancient migrations be they individually or collectively.

[Dibran]

Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?

I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.

[baltek]

I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.

Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.

[baltek]

I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.

Do you mean R-P278.2 was not Slavic back then because the Slavic migration happened in 6th century AD only?

[halfalp]

Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.

When a clade is formed by a founder effect, exemple R1a-Z93 was formed at some point, it doesn't mean that the first R1a with the snp's for Z93 is the ancestor of all Z93 today, it's unlikely. Instead one of his kin became the ancestors of all modern Z93 at some point. The latter is called the Most Recent Common Ancestor.

It basically means that, if you are Z280, this clade formed at some point in time, and is found in modern Slavic peoples, but it doesn't mean your ancestor was Slavic, it could have came in Central Asia with Z93 at some point and became Turkic at some point too.

[baltek]

Merci beaucoup halfalp. I see your point. I think that the haplogroup diversity quickly falls over time in the isolated groups. E.g. I have two daughters. So any eventual SNP will disappear with me. The Kyrgyz people are an isolated group due to living in the mountains and thus preserving their original Z93 line.

So my argument is that the presence of such a rare haplogroup line (R-P278.2) may mean some mass migration at some point given the distance that separates Tian Shan from Carpathian mountains. The thing is that Saka/Scythian people with Z93 from Andronovo culture were already living in Central Asia when R-P278.2 got formed 3000 ybp. So the only way R-P278.2 appeared in Central Asia is a migration. I found though that some Tatars also have R-P278.2.

Whatever happened, I am still hoping to narrow down my R-P278.2 even more. The thing is that I cannot translate SNPs listed at yfull in the format like YP5285 * YP5286 * YP5284 to Reference SNP cluster IDs. If this were possible, I would track those rsids in my 23andme raw data myself. Does anyone know how to translate those SNPs to rsids?

[Ordas]

I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?



There are surely other subclades. Goga's L62 is extremely rare, but there are so many branches under Z93 that I don't see why those are found in other parts of the Middle East wouldn't occasionally show up in Kurdistan.

Could it be that the CTS1211 is odf Skytian-Sarmatian origin? Huns and Avars have alot of Z2124. Hungarian Conquerors had 3/29 CTS1211 and onevof them a VIP (grave K2/41) with rich grave goods.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/597997v1
To that time the western border of the hungarian theritory was the upper Ens river(today Austria), but they have done raids to Germany too. On the other hand proto slavic people could have got this SNP from Sarmatians. There were a lot of them in Roman legions, so they could have spread it a lot. Poland has also a lot of it and it is known they have some Sarmatian heritage too. Same for Hungarians and neighboring Slavs.

[Ordas]

Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime whereas for Czechs and Croats it is up to fantasy and preferences of linguists (Scythian, Turkic, some forefathers..).
My overly pattern seeking mind tries to link m458 to unclear or non-Slavic ethnonimes for Slavic folk and m558 to clear Slavic ethnonimes.

It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?

[Dibran]

It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

[Ordas]

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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[baltek]

Yes, Batyr, Baatyr, Bahadur are also used in Turkic languages. Even Russians have it. It sounds like Bogatyr, probably, borrowed from Turco-Mongols during the golden Horde times.

[baltek]

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.

[lndy0430]

Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?

For your situation, it is better to do a SNPs test and join the YFULL.

[Milan.M]

Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language?

Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.

[Dibran]

Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.

It isn't the most dominant line of course. But it reaches between 10-20. Here are the two separate sources on the matter. Keep in mind the first link has alot of opinions but it mentioned M458 Nogai.

http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin...s2_20161009_8_[1_2]_3_BEHPS_2016_8.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/

[Dibran]

Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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I agree. I think because most slavic middle aged remains are cremated(prior to Christianization) that the assumption is M458 are Slavic cause remains haven't popped up yet so they must have "cremated their dead". Of course absence of samples doesn't necessarily mean M458 or all if it cremated their dead. As you say the cultural exchange between these peoples, maybe not all practiced the same funeral rites. For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk. Maybe thats why not all Slavs are "uniform" in ethnic origin. Most M458 diversity is in Central Europe. As I understand diversity is usually contingent with possible origin or at least major settlement. Absent ancient DNA most papers have just called it "Central European". Sadly I think the last big paper on this matter was 2014. So its been 5 years since any serious paper mentioned M458 or its developing clades. No ancient DNA either. Yet we have 2000 plus ancient Bronze Age Tollense warriors and no YDNA reported since it was discovered like 5 years ago. Very fishyyy. lol

[hrvat22]

From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead?

Probably until time when they become Christians.

[Ordas]

For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk.

Do you mean Huns did cremated their dead? As I know and legend tells, Atilla was not cremated but was buried in 3 coffins under a river.

Regarding fishyyy, you are right. It will be difficult to prove.


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[Ordas]

Probably until time when they become Christians.

Thank you!

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[Ordas]

Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.

Thank you Milan!

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[Ordas]

Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?

I don't think it is a slavic line. Yes today it is widely spred among slavic people but this means not it is its origin. It's origin is most likely from the Srubna and/or Andronovo culture. This people were among the ancestors of the Cimmerians and Skythians. The Skythians inhabited a wide range from the Carpathians to Liao River, so your father line could be just from there some where.
Some Hungarian Conquerors also R-CST1211 most likely from Srubna-Andronovo descent (also mtDNA shows in the same direction). It wi!l be hard to tel where your fathers line come from, but I think this is the most probable - through Skythian descent.

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[Johane Derite]

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

[LABERIA]

Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

I think the name Bato among South Slavs started to be used mostly during the XX century, especially during the communism regime. Do they have medieval name Bato?