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Thread: New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)

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    6 out of 6 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)

    Following the new map of R1a-M458, here is the map of R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93). The distribution is more exclusively Balto-Slavic than M458, although the Czechs have very little of it.

    Note that about half of all R1a in Italy, south-west France and Spain is CTS1211, meaning that it was very probably brought by the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. The Goths, although originally from southern Sweden and north-east Germany, had lived for several centuries in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire (starting with the Balkans), and appear to have absorbed local Proto-Slavic populations.

    The map is based on the data from Underhill et al. 2014, but with a few adaptations when the total R1a frequencies didn't match my own data. For example, my data showed considerably higher levels of R1a in Slovenia and Hungary than the tiny sample from the paper, and I therefore increased the percentages. Underhill et al. didn't have any sample from France or Spain, so I had to infer the proportion based on small samples from FTDNA and adapt it to my earlier map of overall R1a.

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    When I look at the Underhil et al maps.

    Both M588 and M458 appear as significant in Kurdistan and Iran as in parts of the Caucasus. Or is there something I am missing?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    When I look at the Underhil et al maps.

    Both M588 and M458 appear as significant in Kurdistan and Iran as in parts of the Caucasus. Or is there something I am missing?
    The data from Underhill 2014 says that Turkish Kurdistan has 6.7% of R1a and all of it is Z93>Z95>M582. It just goes to show how these auto-generated maps aren't reliable, since it doesn't match the data on which it is based.

    The M582 subclade is also found in Iran, among the Nogay and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and oddly enough also in Austria and at trace frequencies in Germany, but nowhere else. Its mother clade, Z95, is found all over the Caucasus, Iran, India and in parts of Central Asia.

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    Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine. And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).
    Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The data from Underhill 2014 says that Turkish Kurdistan has 6.7% of R1a and all of it is Z93>Z95>M582. It just goes to show how these auto-generated maps aren't reliable, since it doesn't match the data on which it is based.

    The M582 subclade is also found in Iran, among the Nogay and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and oddly enough also in Austria and at trace frequencies in Germany, but nowhere else. Its mother clade, Z95, is found all over the Caucasus, Iran, India and in parts of Central Asia.
    M582 must be Iranic/IranoAryan and probably brought to Europe by them. The reason why in Iran it is mostly found among Jews and Nogay could be that it is more connected to the "northern" nomad horse breeding tribes such as Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes and their successors the Parthians.

    Well than Underhils samples are probably too regional biased because neither likely is it that the frequency is only 6.9% in Anatolian Kurdistan (I haven't yet seen any other study with frequency below 12%), nor is all of it entirely z93. We even have a user here who isn't (Goga). Also from the two individuals who have so far tested downstream. One has been z93 and the other z283.

    1x R1a1a (Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-)(Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)
    1x R1a1a (Z283+, Z282+, Z284-, M458-, Z280-, subclade 3 only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish from Turkey)


    Well you are right it's not m558 or m458 but since z283, z93 and l62 (Goga) was found I can't imagine that there are not other downstream subclades.
    Last edited by Alan; 23-12-14 at 12:49.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine. And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).
    Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.
    Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    M582 must be Iranic/IranoAryan and probably brought to Europe by them. The reason why in Iran it is mostly found among Jews and Nogay could be that it is more connected to the "northern" Nomad tribes such as Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes and their successors the Parthians.
    I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?

    Well than Underhils samples are probably too regional biased because neither likely is it that the frequency is only 6.9% in Anatolian Kurdistan (I haven't yet seen any other study with frequency below 12%), nor is all of it entirely z93. We even have a user here who isn't (Goga). Also from the two individuals who have so far tested downstream. One has been z93 and the other z283.


    http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2014/1...a-part-xi.html


    Well you are right it's not m558 or m458 but since z283, z93 and l62 (Goga) was found I can't imagine that there are not other downstream subclades.
    There are surely other subclades. Goga's L62 is extremely rare, but there are so many branches under Z93 that I don't see why those are found in other parts of the Middle East wouldn't occasionally show up in Kurdistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.
    Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime whereas for Czechs and Croats it is up to fantasy and preferences of linguists (Scythian, Turkic, some forefathers..).
    My overly pattern seeking mind tries to link m458 to unclear or non-Slavic ethnonimes for Slavic folk and m558 to clear Slavic ethnonimes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?


    Procopius writes in History of the Wars Book III: The Vandalic War:[15] "the Massagetae whom they now call Huns" (XI. 37.), "there was a certain man among the Massagetae, well gifted with courage and strength of body, the leader of a few men; this man had the privilege handed down from his fathers and ancestors to be the first in all the Hunnic armies to attack the enemy" (XVIII. 54.).
    Evagrius Scholasticus (Ecclesiastical History. Book 3. Ch. II.): "and in Thrace, by the inroads of the Huns, formerly known by the name of Massagetae, who crossed the Ister without opposition".[16]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae

    The Massagetae were very strong and very feared. They defeated the Scythians and were those who started the western migration of Scythians into Cimmerian lands. The Huns were very likely these Massagetae who went into an alliance with other nomad tribes, such as the Altaic groups.

    There name basically means "the great/strong Getae". massa meaning great/heavy, related to Kurdish masin (big/great/heavy) and in English as in "massive".

    Some authors suggest a common origin of Thracians (Getae), Gutians (Gutea), Massagetae/Massageteans and Jats.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-12-14 at 11:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Yes, it's interesting to see that both Slovaks and Slovenes share high percentages of R1a-CTS1211 like East Slavs. Both the Czechs and mainland Croats, on the other hand, have very low levels (< 5%) of CTS1211, but remarkably high levels of R1a-M458. It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two (and even chose similar flags to confuse everyone), while the Czechs and Croats form another group.
    That's my observation too.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    There is a speculation that Galindo surname of Spain is related to Galindian fighters within Visigoth army.
    I could not find Galindo surname project familytreedna results...

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    @Maciamo

    I took a look at the sample data. And to be honest I see my concerns confirmed. With a sample size of 30 in total for Kurds which was taken from an older study of Anatolian Kurds (Kurds Cillicia), which knowingly are botttle-necked and have less R1a* (See here => http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2011/04/...anatolian.html) and which is no comparison to the sample size of 427 for Armenians, 1300+ for Iranians or 600+ for Turks, I don't see this comparison beeing fair or even remotely representative for Kurds. Let alone if none of these few tested Kurds are from traditional Kurdistan but a Kurdish enclave from South_Central Anatolia.

    By the way I discovered another two Kurdish samples with R1a* which have been listed under "Iran"

    Kordestan, Iran m576
    Kordestan, Iran m417
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Province

    So we have three m582 from Cillica Kurds, one m576 from Iranian Kurdistan and one m417 (Basal R1a1a) from Iranian Kurdistan. Now lets add the l62 and the z283 we already had. There we have a high diversity of R1a*.

    But still this study is in no way representative for Kurdistan if only 2, of the already very small sample size of 32, are from actual Kurdistan.


    Edit: Heck I found out that even the frequency they pointed out is wrong. They have three R1a m582 out of 30 samples in their table. But only listed a total of "two" from 30. So even in this study it should be at least 10% R1a.
    Last edited by Alan; 26-12-14 at 22:40.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Hm, Slovenes have much of it. Slovaks have significantly more than Czechs. Then there are two spots of higher frequency - border between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine.
    Most of those Slovenian cases of CTS1211 are likely members of a very specific "Carpathian-Dalmatian" subclade Y2613 that seems to be most frequent in Western Balkans (including both Slovenia and Croatia) and in the Northern Carpathian region (including SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine), though Y2613 is also seen (at lower frequencies) in Austria, Hungary, Bohemia and Lusatia. There is also a relatively young potential Northern subclade of Y2613>Y2609 (or cluster Y2609-A), found in NE Poland/East Prussia, Lithuania and Latvia.

    Since the NE Carpathian region (showing increased frequency of Y2613) has been once known as "White Croatia", it is also possible that this apparent Carpathian-West Balkan link is more specifically associated with the "Croat" ethnonym (or with the so-called "Old Croats") rather than with the more general ethnonym "Slavs/Slovens". It should be noted that we don't have much Y2613 (or any other "West Balkan" or "Carpathian" subclade of R1a) in Pomerania (where the Pomeranian Slovincy were living) or in Northern Russia (a land of the Ilmen Slavs/Slovene) where some completely different subclades of CTS1211 (mostly from the YP237 calde) are seen.

    There are also two other subclades of CTS1211 that are quite common in both the Northern Carpathian region and in the West Balkans. These are YP343 (als known as "Carpathian) and Y2902 (known as "Volga-Carpathian") or more specifically its Western/Carpathian subclade Y3219. Importantly, Y2613, YP343 and Y3219 are only very distantly related to each other, with some of their sister clades showing a completely different distribution pattern, which suggests that they started travelling together very shortly after being included into a very specific Slavic subgrouping, residing most likely in the NE Carpathian region.


    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    And another one, more orange, in Russia around Kursk and Moscow (?).
    This region shows very high frequency of the above-mentioned Volga-Carpathian clade Y2902 (mostly its Eastern subclade Y2910). The two other major daughter clades of CTS8816 (ie. L1280 and S18681, both most frequent in Poland and East Germany) are also seen there but they are much less common in this region. Of all subclades of CTS1211 that are relatively young (ie. not older than 2500-3000 years), Y2902 is definitely the most frequent one. Importantly, it also shows a very widespread distribution (comparable to that of L1280), which together suggests that Y2902 was one of the major driving forces (besides R1a-M458 and I2a-Din) when the expansion of the Early Slavs started at the beginning of the first millennium AD.


    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Balts seem to have around half of their R1A of this type.
    It is very hard to separate any relatively old subclades of CTS1211 (or of its sister clade Z92) that would be specifically associated with either Balts or Slavs, although its seems that YP237 (in the case of CTS1211) and YP270 (in the case of Z92) were more strongly associated with the Balts than with the Slavs (by contrast to Y33, Y2613, YP343). All this suggests that the early Balto-Slavic populations were thoroughly mixed at some early stage of their development, ie. before 1500 BC, which was most likely associated with the evolution of the Trzciniec cultural horizon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?
    AFAIR, their STR haplotypes suggested quite strongly that these samples belonged to some members of the relatively young Ashkenazi Levite subclade Y2619 under M582 (or under CTS6 from the same level), so we can assume that they represented some assimilated Ashkenazi Jews. By contrast, all non-Jewish Middle Eastern M582 haplotypes belonged to some evidently early separated clusters. Importantly, M582 (or CTS6) is estimated to be about 3000 years old (based on both SNPs and STRs), while Y2619 is only about 1200-1500 years old, so I would not associate the above-mentioned Central European M582 cases with the Huns.

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    Thanks Michal! A lot of useful information. Is there any chance that R1a z280 and its subclades can be found nicely visualised as it is for example done by Georg Dunkel for N tree?
    I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Thanks Michal! A lot of useful information. Is there any chance that R1a z280 and its subclades can be found nicely visualised as it is for example done by Georg Dunkel for N tree?
    I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..
    I'm afraid I will never be able to create such a nice scheme as that produced by Georg Dunkel for haplogroup N. :)

    Also, as a not-so-frequent poster I am not allowed to provide any links or images, but you can visit the Russian Molgen forum to find some NGS-based schemes for branch Z280 made by Semargl. On the English Molgen forum (Genetic Genealogy Community forum), I have also placed my BigY-based draft tree for branch Z280, but it hasn't been updated since October, so many important new data are missing.

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    I am from Dalmatia and my roots are from origin of croatian kingdom. I am R-CTS3402. Negative for R-L579, R-L365, R-F2686, R-L366, R-CTS-11142. What this means?
    Last edited by jasho; 26-04-15 at 10:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasho View Post
    I am from Dalmatia and my roots are from origin of croatian kingdom. I am R-CTS3402. Negative for R-L579, R-L365, R-F2686, R-L366, R-CTS-11142. What this means?
    It is interesting, Prince Nikita Drutskoy-Sokolinsky is carrier R-CTS3402, also.

    Russian Nobility DNA:

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    About ancestors of the heirs of the leading families of Europe: Drutskoy-Sokolynski

    http://heirsofeurope.blogspot.com/20...okolinsky.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's really as if the Slovaks and Slovenes were one group that split in two, while the Czechs and Croats form another group.
    Slovene language is also most closely related to Slovak language out of all West Slavic languages.

    However, Slovene languages also show close ties with neighbouring South Slavic languages.

    As for the patterns of R1a subclades:

    While Czechs-Croats are on one extreme and Slovenes-Slovaks on another, Poles are intermediate with between 40-60 to 60-40 proportions between M458 and Z280 as well as their downstream subclades (depending on study and sample).

    Slovenes and Croats also share high % of I2a-Din with each other, and with East Slavs and other South Slavs - but not with Czechs, Slovaks and Poles.

    So it seems to me that the Balkans were colonized by Slavs from two directions - one migration from Ukraine-Moldova-Romania, one from Poland-Czechoslovakia. This is also confirmed by historical written records, by the way.

    And it shows that various groups of Slavs had different proportions of various haplogroups already during the time of expansion.

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    Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime
    "Slavs" - like "Germanics" - is a linguistic umbrella term describing speakers of so called "Slavic" languages.

    Originally, "Slavs" was a Greco-Roman corruption for "Sloveni", which was only one of many tribes who spoke that language.

    The history of the term "Germanics" is the same - originally it applied only to one specific tribe, the Tungri.

    Already during the 500s AD speakers of Late Common Slavic were divided into many ethnonyms, of which "Sloveni" was only one. One of other branches of speakers of that language was known as the Antes. So "Slavic" - "Antic" and "Slavs" - "Ants" can be used interchangeably.

    ====================================

    Jordanes wrote about Slavic-speaking nations in the 500s AD:

    "(...) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Carpathians as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus [marshes at the juncture of the Drava and the Danube] to the Dniester, and northward as far as the Vistula. (...) The Antes (...) dwelling above the curve of the sea of Pontus [Black Sea coast near Odessa], spread from the Dniester to the Dnieper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (...)"
    Procopius wrote about Slavic-speaking nations in the 500s AD:

    "(...) For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antes, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people. It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. For they believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him cattle and all other victims. (...) When they enter battle, the majority of them go against their enemy on foot carrying shields and javelins in their hands, but they never wear corselets. Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language [Late Common Slavic], an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts, just as the Massagetae do. (...) In fact, the Sclaveni and the Antes actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Spori in olden times, because, I suppose, living apart one man from another, they inhabit their country in a sporadic fashion. And in consequence of this very fact they hold a great amount of land; for they alone inhabit the greatest part of the northern bank of the Danube. So much then may be said regarding these peoples. (...)"

  21. #21
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    I know only general R1a tree picture which is good to understand overall structure but does not go down as detailed on SNP level..
    Balto-Slavs generally belong to Z280 and M458 (among Poles proportions of the two branches are 50-50, or from 40-60 to 60-40). But perhaps those branches weren't exclusively Balto-Slavic, but also shared by some other - today extinct - Indo-European linguistic groups, such as the Daco-Thracian languages, or the hypothetical Venedic languages (which could be closely related to both Balto-Slavic and Daco-Thracian):

    http://s17.postimg.org/hsnaex6xb/R1a_tree.png



    Daco-Thracian is a hypothetical language family that was probably closely related to Balto-Slavic language family:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...#Daco-Thracian

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

  22. #22
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    Country: Latvia



    New study says over 90% of Latvian R1a is m558. Over 33% of total Y.
    Although maybe they just assigned everything non m458 as m558 :)

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...es-of-Latvians

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-YP346
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1b1b1

    Ethnic group
    Rumî
    Country: Turkey



    Any more information about R-Z280

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    Country: Serbia



    This sentence from the R1a article confused one of the forum members:

    R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans)
    And it is not surprising he was confused because a part of this particular sentence is not correct. In fact, R-Z280 is more common in the Balkans than any other R1a subclade (including R-M458).

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    Hello. This is my first post. I was referred from another site, because I'm confused about my results: Z280-CTS1211-Y35-CTS3402-Y2613-Y2609-x [Y2608-]. There are so many knowledgeable people here; this must be a boring request. I want it understand what these results mean. It doesn't seem that I have many relatives based on these results. Of course this is from my Y chromosome and my last name is Kaspar. (Also, if someone can help, it appears that the surname, Lesikar, on my maternal side is rare. And, have no idea where it comes from or what it means.) Can anybody help? Thanks.

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