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maps do not fit with each other concerning the south-slavsOriginally Posted by LeBrok
The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.
M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
Indeed! Great find / observation!The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.
It seems to confirm that those were two branches of the same tribe / ethnic group, which was migrating:
And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)
"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid#Appearance
Red Ruthenia (i.e. "Western Ruthenia" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_RutheniaSvitovyd (Svetovyd) is an old-Slavonic pre-christian totem-god (...). Idols which depicted the totem were characterized by having four faces. As a result this totem was able to see the whole world. Each face had a specific colour. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Belarus, the White Sea, etc.), the western - red (hence Chervona Rus; Red Ruthenia), the southern Black (hence the Black Sea) and the eastern Green (hence Zelenyj klyn; Green Ukraine etc.).
Green Ukraine (i.e. "Eastern Ukraine" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine
White Sea (i.e." Northern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea
Black Sea (i.e. "Southern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea
I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.
"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.
Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.
Me too.I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats.
Location of White Croats is uncertain. Various sources (from different years) mentioned them in distinct places - but all of them are along the Carpathians, IIRC. So maybe they were migrating along the Carpathian Mountains, from east to west? Sources mention them along the Carpathians, but some locate them in what is now Western Ukraine, some in Southern Poland, some in Czech Republic.
Well - if we collect sources which say about White Croats chronologically, then IIRC the oldest sources mentioned them in Eastern Galicia while the most recent mentioned them in what is now Czech Republic (and from this area they probably migrated to the Balkans).The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Maps don't agree with Eastern Galicia because modern population of Galicia are not descendants of White Croats. Migrations happen.
But it doesn't mean that White Croats never lived in Eastern Galicia.
Map of Early Medieval Czech tribes (check the tribes of Charvati and Charvatci):
http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm
Smaller version:
Yes, this Polans were Sarmatian refugees to Le(c)hites land after Huns invasion.
For me for now Slavs are only language comunity. And Slavic language was first try to do an international language (todays english + esperanto) for many ethnicities with R1a, R1b, I and their subclades.
R1b is old - european and (I do not like this word) "aryan". R1a are "unwanted" sons of R1b people. Huns invasion pushes those R1a Sarmatians and Scythians tribes west to Central Europe. And if I2a1b (din) moved from Ukraine about 2000 years ago that is good to think that they are real Huns. And if we have I,J,K Y-DNA brach it is plausible that they came here from near-east. Maybe I1 were first but mostly or only in Scandinavia. "I" should be real Hebrews, "J" Semites - semi - half. Finally, there were two great invasions. If german and yiddish sounds similar and german language grew up from proto-germanic language of I1 people....?
Sanskrit was wrote by local "indo-iranian" people, not by and in "aryan" language so the similarity to slavic language have sense.
I thought this subject and maps of Tomenable deserved its own thread.
That I know Croats have R1a Z280 type....Although I'm not really research R1a Z280, on Serbian forum I saw that this haplotype is most concentrated around Krakow in southern Poland, is this the real truth I do not know ....maybe somebody here knows more..
I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.
What R1a M558 has with Croats......
Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 has origin in southern Poland and is possible that R1a Z280 is from southern Poland.....Genetically only there could be a center of White Croatia.............it is the logic
In the records is mentioned Great Croatia that would include much larger area... however it is a small remnant of the Great Croatia.........White Croatia included parts of south Poland, southwestern Ukraine, northern Slovakia and north eastern Czech....
Velika_Bijela_Hrvatska_9_st.jpg Great Croatia
Not much,well 16%. That's why we should look for White Croatia in Galicia which has 51% of it. Czech Republic is a better proxy, as per post #30.
Do you have historical sources to support territory of Great Croatia? Personally, this is the first time I hear about Great Croatia.
I do not know from where you get this information, but I only know that Croats have R1a Z280...stated I present in How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?
If you're interested I'll repeat....
Last edited by hrvat22; 30-12-14 at 11:48.
31. Of the Croats and of the country they now dwell in
Great Croatia, also called 'white', is still unbaptized to this day
32. Of the Serbs and of the country they now dwell in
The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white':
De Administrando Imperioby Constantine VII
http://www.answers.com/topic/de-administrando-imperio-1
http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...y-of-Lviv.html
I don't dispute White Croatia existed, but where and how big is the unknown. The map that you posted is no proof. It was made by some hobbyist in recent years.
Why don't you explore "Genetics" section of Eupedia to learn more about haplotypes and their clades.
Is there a possibility that Croatia was just a geographic region? Hrbat means ridge, so it could denote Carpates, while Hrvats (Croats) could be Slavs from Carpates (i.e. Slovakia)?
I repeat.........Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 .........I. Rozhansky2013/10/18 geneticist and expert for R1a haplogroup
Most Croatians and others in dinaric area have R1a Z280 CTS3402....
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap
There is a smaller part of the other types R1a but in the majority is R1a Z280 CTS3402...
Here you have on the Croatian language only part of toponyms and hydronym which Slavs and Croats brought from Carpathians
http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg
.... there was White Croatia particularly in the southern Poland and wider ... there's a source of Croatian I2a haplotype and probably Croatian R1a haplotype, although it is not yet certainly to say for R1a.....
Which are exactly the borders of White Croatia it difficult to determine, this map is obviously based on the names of places and some few historical records that mention Croats in this area, or same names of villages and towns that exist in Croatia....
There are no White Croats in Poland. There is no region in Poland with this name either.
You can only find White Croatia on Austro-Hungarian maps, because it was their invention to place it in Malopolska, around Krakow.
Mother of Pope Ivana Pavla II is from the south Poland declared as White Croat...
Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland....
R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland....
It is assumed that Porphyrogenitus mentioned Croats in this area...
Near the town Lviv in southwest Ukraine have been found cities of White Croats, Ukrainian children come there with school trips for exploring the life of White Croats....
Writer Bruno of Querfurt even stated that Red Croatia was neighbour to Kievan Rus' and White Croatia, as well as that Croats were found between the Bug and Dniester rivers.
The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats,
Some of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries.
In 992 Russian prince Vladimir the Great during his south and western campaigns went against the Croats who still remained near the western border of modern day Ukraine, as well as the Polish marches and other Slavic peoples. Those Croats were also still pagan as Vladimir had just only very recently converted to Christianity.
..Leaving Igor in Kiev, Oleg attacked the Greeks. He took with him a multitude of Varangians, Slavs, Chuds, Krivichians, Merians, Polianians, Severians, Derevlians, Radimichians, Croats, Dulebians, and Tivercians......All these tribes are known as Great Scythia by the Greeks.......The Russians hung their shields upon the gates as a sign of victory, and Oleg then departed from Constantinople...So Oleg came to Kiev, bearing palls, gold, fruit, and wine, along with every sort of adornment....
A very old Czech version legend involving two brothers is also known in the Czech Republic. As described by Alois Jirásek in Staré pověsti české, two brothers came to Central Europe from the east: Čech and Lech. As in the Polish version, Čech is identified as the founder of the Czech nation (Češi pl.) and Lech as the founder of the Polish nation. Čech climbed up the mountain Říp, looked around the landscape and settled with a tribe in the area, whereas Lech continued to the lowlands of the north. The two brothers who founded the early Czech and Polish nations lived in Charvátská země (Pronounced the same and meaning Harvatska country, ie: the early White Croatia/Hrvatska) Alois Jirásek believed that this was the original homeland of the Slavs - north of the Tatra Mountains and the basin of the Vistula.
The first chapter of the Old Czech Legends begins: In the Tatras, in the plains of the river Vistula, stretched from time immemorial Charvátská country, part of an initial large Slavic country. Probably this is the territory of the White Croats (Bili Chorvati) that ranged from Ostrava to Lviv and also to Kievan Rus'. It is also known from legends that Kiev with his brothers (Kije and Chorivem) co-founded (each on its hill) Šček (probably Forefather Čech) Some researchers believe that the Slavniks belonged to the White Croats.
Another well known early Slavic legend is the Czech legend of St.Wenceslaus, regarding the early 10th century Czech Duke Wenceslaus. We find that when his mother Drahomira was mourning his death, her other son Boleslav tried to murder her and so she fled to the Croats/Croatia. This would most likely refer to the still present "White Croats" who still inhabited Silesia and/or parts of northern Bohemia rather than the Croatian Kingdom already formed to the south.
Everything else is logic..
Yes, because this was Austro-Hungarian document. It was A-H political maneuver. They didn't occupy Poland, but they liberated "White Croats" instead. A-H documents didn't say Polak ethnicity, but Bialy Chorwat. That's why polish people from around Kakow ended up classified as White Croats when arrived in USA.
Could you support this with more information?Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983 has origin in the southern Poland....
Look at maps M558 and 458 above and you will see that Croats corresponds better with Czechs.R1a Z280 haplotype which has a majority of Croats with R1a has a large percentage in southern Poland....
White Croats might have been in the area but we can't pinpoint the location. Czechs and Silesia is the best guess for me.The most important and earliest major manuscript with information on early Rus' history and of the East Slavs is Nestor's Primary Chronicle, written in the late 11th and early 12th centuries. It is a history of Kievan Rus' from about 850 to 1110 and lists the twelve Slavic tribal unions who by the 9th century settled between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea. These tribal unions were Polans, Drevlyans, Dregovichs, Radimichs, Vyatichs, Krivichs, Slovens, Dulebes (later known as Volhynians and Buzhans), White Croats,
PossiblySome of the north eastern Croats are mentioned as living near the Sozh river which lies within Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, as well as the Oka river which is near modern day Moscow. Remnants of Croats that did not migrate south to today's Croatia circa. 6th and 7th centuries.
If you can read polish here are opinions of polish historians and buffs.
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=14293
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