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Thread: Slavic R1a clades.

  1. #101
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    lets first focus on pre-Slavic waves of R1a



    in my opinion first spread of R1a was Corded ware (circa 2900 BCE – circa 2350 BCE)...it went northwards and merged with I1 and I2a2 to give proto-germanic..southern part resulted in Urnfield and poshed border of R1a spread to south west and remained living there for 1000 years
    that is why spread of R1a have same western borders as Urnfield culture (. 1300 BC – 750 BC)...

    In my opinion Hallstat happens when R1b proto Celts get to rule over R1a Urnfield settlements...
    this is why there is west (probably dominant R1b) and east hallstat (still dominant R1a)

    Two culturally distinct areas, an eastern and a western zone are generally recognised.[35] There are distinctions in burial rites, the types of grave goods, and in artistic style. In the western zone, members of the elite were buried with sword (HaC) or dagger (HaD), in the eastern zone with an axe.[24] The western zone has chariot burials. In the eastern zone, warriors are frequently buried with helmet and a plate armour breastplate.[23] Artistic subjects with a narrative component are only found in the east, in both pottery and metalwork.[36] In the east the settlements and cemeteries can be larger than in the west.[24]

    The approximate division line between the two subcultures runs from north to south through central Bohemia and Lower Austria at about 14 to 15 degrees eastern longitude, and then traces the eastern and southern rim of the Alps to Eastern and Southern Tyrol.[citation needed]

    Eastern Hallstatt zone

    The eastern Hallstatt zone includes:



    note that east Hallstat is now mostly Slavic area...
    we know that Jordanes says Slavi and Antes are biggest tribes remaining from once numerous Veneti race, implying Veneti is proto-Slavic and thus proto-Slavic was numerous race..so it rules out 6th century expansion from small area...

    if the name Sloveni is old for part of proto-Slavic population and people..we could expect that name to be used already in east Hallstatt

    godess Sulevia in east Hallstatt couild have been Slavia
    In ancient Celtic religion, Sulevia was a goddess worshipped in Gaul, Britain, and Galicia,[1] very often in the plural forms Suleviae or (dative) Sule(v)is. Dedications to Sulevia(e) are attested in about forty inscriptions, distributed quite widely in the Celtic world, but with particular concentrations in Noricum, among the Helvetii, along the Rhine, and also in Rome.
    and tribe Salluvi in southeast France could have been Slavi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyes

    presence of proto-Slavs in east Hallstatt gives possibility that slavic name for germanic people Nemci could have been derived from tribal name Nemetes that was also situated in east Hallstatt

  2. #102
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    At "Serbian DNA project" there is a 293 people which are R1a.

    211 are Z280, which means that Z280 is 72% of total R1a.

    http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedin...grp-filter=R1a

  3. #103
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    [QUOTE=Tomenable;458125]And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

    [/Q
    UOTE]

    I2a is the strongest in Croatia and E-V13 is the strongest in Bulgaria.

  4. #104
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    [QUOTE=Bachus;532013]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

    [/Q
    UOTE]

    I2a is the strongest in Croatia and E-V13 is the strongest in Bulgaria.

    Sorry but you're wrong. E-V13 is strongest in Albanians as far as the Balkans is concerned. Especially Kosovars. Greeks and Bulgarians would probably be next on that list. No way V13 is strongest in Bulgaria.

  5. #105
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    [QUOTE=Dibran;532063]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post


    Sorry but you're wrong. E-V13 is strongest in Albanians as far as the Balkans is concerned. Especially Kosovars. Greeks and Bulgarians would probably be next on that list. No way V13 is strongest in Bulgaria.
    Bulgaria

    E-V13 - 23,5%

    I2 - 20%

    R1a - 17%

    R1b - ​11%

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

  6. #106
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    [QUOTE=Bachus;532088]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post

    Bulgaria

    E-V13 - 23,5%

    I2 - 20%

    R1a - 17%

    R1b - ​11%

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml
    Kosovars have 35-45 percent E-V13, and Albanians between 28-36 roughly. My point stands.

  7. #107
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Country: Bulgaria



    The E-V13 among Bulgarians is in fact 18%, Eupedia shows everything under E1b1b1. The rest are other branches under M78 and M123.
    Although not with the highest percentage V13 on the Balkans, Bulgarians show the highest diversity. Albanians, especially have a strong founder effect under V13 and not many subbranches are discovered so far among them.
    Bulgarians show maybe an equal split between R1a M458 and Z280. There are a few cases of Z93, which are not connected to recent Turkic branches and could be potentially remnants of the Bronze age Z93 found on the Balkans in the latest study "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe".

  8. #108
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    [QUOTE=Dibran;532090]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post

    Kosovars have 35-45 percent E-V13, and Albanians between 28-36 roughly. My point stands.
    I know that Albanians have more E-V13 than Bulgarians, but E-V13 i also the strongest haplogroup among Bulgarians (stronger than I2a and R1a).

    Bulgarians have the most peleo-Balkanic (aka Vlach) influence of all south Slavs, even more than Macedonians.

  9. #109
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    It seems Hungary is an R1a dominant country, (but slavic language countries, Serbia, Bulgaria isn't). Maybe Hungary is the link with the south slavs and the other slavic countries. I know, many slavic settlement were in Hungary from the time of the Kingdom of the Gepids, during the Avar Age and they still lived here when the hungarian tribes arrived. Do anyone know the hungarian R1a distribution?

    One of the R1a families in Hungary: My mother's father was R1a-M458-L260-YP415. The family name is: Kalenyák, religion:greek-catholic, ethnicity: rusin (ruthenian), origin: polish? vislyan? white croat? Lived: Penészlek, Szatmár county, Hungary. Before the family came from Mikó (today: Mikova, northeast Slovakia, next to the polish border) at early 1700s.

    I would like to know more about the YP415 subclade. Can anyone help me?

  10. #110
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    It seems Hungary is an R1a dominant country, (but slavic language countries, Serbia, Bulgaria isn't). Maybe Hungary is the link with the south slavs and the other slavic countries. I know, many slavic settlement were in Hungary from the time of the Kingdom of the Gepids, during the Avar Age and they still lived here when the hungarian tribes arrived. Do anyone know the hungarian R1a distribution?
    De administrando imperio.
    From Croats who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian),
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PannoniaMany Croats fleeing from the Turks to Hungary, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horv%C3%A1thVery likely part of R1a and I2a subclades that exist in Hungary are and Croatian origin, in any case in the future we know is that true.

  11. #111
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    hrvat22!

    You maybe right. In West Hungary (Transdanubia) lived at this time about 80.000 croatian, and more croatian descent. But my family lived northeast Hungary for centuries. Among my 8 great-great grandfathers Y bloodlines 1 R1a-L260-Yp415, as I wrote, and two more I2A-L621. One S17250-A1328+, but negative all known subclade, and another one is not finished yet. They were all rusin (ruthenian) descendants from the Northeast Carpathian mountains.

    I think our common ancestors with the croatians, were the white croatians from todays southeast Poland and southeast Ukraina. At the VI.-VII. century, some of the white croatians moved south, to the Drava-Sava valley, later the Adriatic coast, (croatians) but the sons, who stay home, later become rusins, and some of them later become hungarians (like my 3 great-great grandfathers) One thing is sure. We have a closer common ancestor with the R1a lines, as in the EV-13 line.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    hrvat22!You maybe right. In West Hungary (Transdanubia) lived at this time about 80.000 croatian, and more croatian descent. But my family lived northeast Hungary for centuries. Among my 8 great-great grandfathers Y bloodlines 1 R1a-L260-Yp415, as I wrote, and two more I2A-L621. One S17250-A1328+, but negative all known subclade, and another one is not finished yet. They were all rusin (ruthenian) descendants from the Northeast Carpathian mountains.I think our common ancestors with the croatians, were the white croatians from todays southeast Poland and southeast Ukraina. At the VI.-VII. century, some of the white croatians moved south, to the Drava-Sava valley, later the Adriatic coast, (croatians) but the sons, who stay home, later become rusins, and some of them later become hungarians (like my 3 great-great grandfathers) One thing is sure. We have a closer common ancestor with the R1a lines, as in the EV-13 line.
    Vlachs comes and to Carpathian area so you have to look which haplotypes and branches Rusyns have and then we be able to bring some conclusion. These haplotypes that you mentione are not typical for today's Croats so wee need to see a wider genetic picture for Rusyns population.

  13. #113
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    Absolutely true. I know 8 R1a-YP415 family at this time. 5 from Poland, (most of them south poland) 2 from the USA, and my mothers family from Hungary. But nobody from the Balkan, or other pieces of the World. The common ancestor lived 1700 Years before present. He must be a member of a slavic tribe. Maybe he was vislyan, or proto-vislyan.

    But the I2A-A1328 is more common among the slavs. I know at this time 12 families. 1 from Russia (Tula), 1 from Bashkiria, 2 from Belarus, 2 from Ukraina, 1 from Poland, 1 from Slovenia, 3 from Bosnia (from Botajica, Maricka, and Bosanski Petrovac, I think they all are serbs), and my ancestor family from Nyírbéltek, northeast Hungary. I think this is a very typical proto-slav branch.

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