Slavic R1a clades.

[arvistro]

What I am saying is that in country x 10% of z282, 10% of m558 and 10% of m458, means 10% of animals, 10% of collies and 10% of cats structurally. When obviously all 30% are animals.

As long as we all understand this, I am cool.

 

[Tomenable]

Sure, but Underhill's Z282 does not include Z284 because he counted Z284 separately.

Later I will list all the clades that are counted in this study separately.

As for Slavic expansion into the Balkans and into Central Europe - it now seems to me that Slavic Y-DNA (be it R1a or Slavic clades of I2, etc.) to a large extend did replace previous Y-DNA of people who had lived there before Slavs. This is also in agreement with written accounts describing Slavic invasions - for example sources such as Procopius of Caesarea and Theophylact Simocatta indicated that once enslaving local inhabitants, Slavic invaders were usually murdering males and taking possession of women and children. These accounts also inform us, that once taking people into slavery, Slavs kept them in slavery only for a limited period of time, and later they were offering them freedom as equal members of their democratic tribal communities (alternatively they could also go back to their previous people, but only if they paid for permission to go away). So Slavic communities consisted of "original Slavs" and enslaved by them - but later liberated and assimilated - foreigners. However, considering the frequent Slavic habit of killing captured males, it seems that among males "original" Slavs had to be overrepresented, while among females absorbed Non-Slavic elements were perhaps more or equally numerous (let me remind you that Pagan Slavs practiced polygamy - so men could have many wifes, not just one).

This might also explain why in Poland there is continuity of ancient mtDNA (but apparently not of Y-DNA).

 

[Lifegear]

Racially they have probably some Germanic admix.,from ancient Goths, Germans or Swedes,
Swedes

I'm sure that Eastern-Germany is more Slavic than Poland is Germanic.
I think Eastern Germany is Germanic with a minor Slavic

 

[Tomenable]

Some more stuff concerning haplogroup R1a among Slavic peoples:

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

 

[LeBrok]

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

 

[Sile]

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

maps do not fit with each other concerning the south-slavs

 

[Tomenable]

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

Indeed! Great find / observation!

It seems to confirm that those were two branches of the same tribe / ethnic group, which was migrating:

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.

"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid#Appearance

Svitovyd (Svetovyd) is an old-Slavonic pre-christian totem-god (...). Idols which depicted the totem were characterized by having four faces. As a result this totem was able to see the whole world. Each face had a specific colour. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Belarus, the White Sea, etc.), the western - red (hence Chervona Rus; Red Ruthenia), the southern Black (hence the Black Sea) and the eastern Green (hence Zelenyj klyn; Green Ukraine etc.).

Red Ruthenia (i.e. "Western Ruthenia" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia
Green Ukraine (i.e. "Eastern Ukraine" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine
White Sea (i.e." Northern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea
Black Sea (i.e. "Southern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

 

[LeBrok]

And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.

"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:

I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.

 

[Tomenable]

I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats.

Me too.

Location of White Croats is uncertain. Various sources (from different years) mentioned them in distinct places - but all of them are along the Carpathians, IIRC. So maybe they were migrating along the Carpathian Mountains, from east to west? Sources mention them along the Carpathians, but some locate them in what is now Western Ukraine, some in Southern Poland, some in Czech Republic.

The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.

Well - if we collect sources which say about White Croats chronologically, then IIRC the oldest sources mentioned them in Eastern Galicia while the most recent mentioned them in what is now Czech Republic (and from this area they probably migrated to the Balkans).

Maps don't agree with Eastern Galicia because modern population of Galicia are not descendants of White Croats. Migrations happen.

But it doesn't mean that White Croats never lived in Eastern Galicia.

 

[Tomenable]

Map of Early Medieval Czech tribes (check the tribes of Charvati and Charvatci):

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

Smaller version:

 

[vandalorum]

Yes, this Polans were Sarmatian refugees to Le(c)hites land after Huns invasion.

 

[vandalorum]

Then who are the Slavs? The Slavs are not Scythian.

I am sure Slavs have a large contribution from Sarmatians/Scythians. But people seem to refuse to acknowledge that they were not the same people. They may have both shared R1a though.

For me for now Slavs are only language comunity. And Slavic language was first try to do an international language (todays english + esperanto) for many ethnicities with R1a, R1b, I and their subclades.

R1b is old - european and (I do not like this word) "aryan". R1a are "unwanted" sons of R1b people. Huns invasion pushes those R1a Sarmatians and Scythians tribes west to Central Europe. And if I2a1b (din) moved from Ukraine about 2000 years ago that is good to think that they are real Huns. And if we have I,J,K Y-DNA brach it is plausible that they came here from near-east. Maybe I1 were first but mostly or only in Scandinavia. "I" should be real Hebrews, "J" Semites - semi - half. Finally, there were two great invasions. If german and yiddish sounds similar and german language grew up from proto-germanic language of I1 people....?
Sanskrit was wrote by local "indo-iranian" people, not by and in "aryan" language so the similarity to slavic language have sense.

 

[LeBrok]

I thought this subject and maps of Tomenable deserved its own thread.

 

[hrvat22]

That I know Croats have R1a Z280 type....Although I'm not really research R1a Z280, on Serbian forum I saw that this haplotype is most concentrated around Krakow in southern Poland, is this the real truth I do not know ....maybe somebody here knows more..

 

[hrvat22]

I'm not so sure about location of W.Croats. The map of M558, contradicts the notion that W.Croatia was in Carpathian Galicia region. The best fit for Croats is in Czechy. Actually both maps don't agree with Galicia.
Note that location for W.Croatia was arbitrarily chosen by Austro-Hungarians to fit with their "ethnic order". There are no Polish sources (to my knowledge) telling us that White Croatia existed there. During A-H Empire occupation, all polish citizens received official documents calling them White Croats, as the ethnic group they belonged to. Now when their great grand children are finding grandparent's documents they think that their ethnicity was White Croats and therefore W. Croatia existed around Cracow and Galicia. It is not true, and just a confusion made by Austro-Hungarians ethnic politics.
We can suspect that Croats migrated to current location from historical homeland called White Croatia, and that it was located North of the current location. However the location of W. Croatia is long lost. If I would need to guess I would guess their location in Czech Republic.

What R1a M558 has with Croats......


Croatian main haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 has origin in southern Poland and is possible that R1a Z280 is from southern Poland.....Genetically only there could be a center of White Croatia.............it is the logic


In the records is mentioned Great Croatia that would include much larger area... however it is a small remnant of the Great Croatia.........White Croatia included parts of south Poland, southwestern Ukraine, northern Slovakia and north eastern Czech....

 

[hrvat22]

Great Croatia

 

[LeBrok]

What R1a M558 has with Croats......

Not much,well 16%. That's why we should look for White Croatia in Galicia which has 51% of it. Czech Republic is a better proxy, as per post #30.

 

[LeBrok]

View attachment 6976 Great Croatia

Do you have historical sources to support territory of Great Croatia? Personally, this is the first time I hear about Great Croatia.

 

[hrvat22]

Not much,well 16%. That's why we should look for White Croatia in Galicia which has 51% of it. Czech Republic is a better proxy, as per post #30.

I do not know from where you get this information, but I only know that Croats have R1a Z280...stated I present in How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


If you're interested I'll repeat....

 

[hrvat22]

Do you have historical sources to support territory of Great Croatia? Personally, this is the first time I hear about Great Croatia.

[h=2]31. Of the Croats and of the country they now dwell in[/h]
Great Croatia, also called 'white', is still unbaptized to this day



[h=2]32. Of the Serbs and of the country they now dwell in[/h]
The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white':

De Administrando Imperio​

by Constantine VII

http://www.answers.com/topic/de-administrando-imperio-1


http://www.croatia.org/crown/articl...heir-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html