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Thread: Slavic R1a clades.

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Slavic R1a clades.

    I made the following graph, based on the most recent publication about R1a:

    From this graph it appears that all Slavs share three subclades of R1a - M458, M558 and Z282:

    However, Z282 seems to be Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic in origin:

    Direct link: Graph Large Version



    Aside from some Mercenaries found in Trelleborg there's no evidence for significant Slavic settlement in Denmark let alone Sweden.
    Wrong. There is archaeological evidence for Slavic settlement in Scania (now Sweden, then Denmark), parts of Denmark, Bornholm island and even Iceland (Slavic-style dwellings).

    This includes Slavic-style pottery found in Scandinavia, Slavic toponyms, settlements. And also skeletons (like from Trelleborg) and DNA.

    We also have written sources (including "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo) which clearly say about the presence of Slavic mercenaries and warriors (like those in Trelleborg) in Scandinavia.

    =====================================

    Check also this link for info about the most recent genetic research on Serbs (November 2014) and about U4 mtDNA haplogroup:

    http://historum.com/european-history...croats-19.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I made the following graph, based on the most recent publication about R1a:

    From this graph it appears that all Slavs share three subclades of R1a - M458, M558 and Z282:

    However, Z282 seems to be Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic in origin:

    Direct link: Graph Large Version





    Wrong. There is archaeological evidence for Slavic settlement in Scania (now Sweden, then Denmark), parts of Denmark, Bornholm island and even Iceland (Slavic-style dwellings).

    This includes Slavic-style pottery found in Scandinavia, Slavic toponyms, settlements. And also skeletons (like from Trelleborg) and DNA.

    We also have written sources (including "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo) which clearly say about the presence of Slavic mercenaries and warriors (like those in Trelleborg) in Scandinavia.

    =====================================

    Check also this link for info about the most recent genetic research on Serbs (November 2014) and about U4 mtDNA haplogroup:

    http://historum.com/european-history...croats-19.html
    Great job with the graph, Tomenable!!!
    I would like to ask you to change red to maybe a lighter shade or red or orange, if you don't mind? I don't have particularly good colour vision and it is not contrasting enough for me with green, to fully enjoy quick glance comparison.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Is it better now (lighter orange used)?:

    http://s23.postimg.org/hxijdxiq3/R1a_Slowian_3.png



    BTW - coming back to historical names of Poles:

    Here Slavic subjects of duke Mieszko (Misacam) I, are called Licicaviki:

    http://www.domus-ecclesiae.de/histor...onicae.03.html

    LXVI. (...) Misacam regem, cuius potestatis erant Sclavi qui dicuntur Licicaviki (...)

    But maybe this refers to just one of many Slavic tribes who lived within the borders of early Poland.

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    Thanks for those graphs. A bit offtopic - do you know if Underhill had also data for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland r1a?

    About these data.
    M458 is clear. It is under Z282, "brother" of Z280 and Z284.
    Z282 technically includes Z280, M458 (present on graph), Z284. I suppose in this graph then it means Z282 (M458-, M558-)?
    M558 - I found in other forum, that it equals CTS1211. So it is below Z280.
    So, I suppose
    Orange - M458
    Blue - Z282 as most likely represented here Z280+, CTS1211- (should be mostly Z92+)
    Green - M558 is Z280+, CTS1211+

    I don't remember how Lithuanian R1A was divided, can't find the study that you linked..., but I remember it had all three present. In Slavs it seems orange one - West Slavs + Ukraine + Croatia. Green one seems everywhere, in South Slavs it is the biggest R1A clade (except Croatians). Blue seems more Northern.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Much better thanks.

    I can see few groups, proportionally regarding R1a clads to each other.



    Slavs that group together.

    - Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians and some Russian and Belarusian places.

    - Poles, Slovaks (but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus).

    - Croatians with Czechs.

    - Bulgarians with Russians from Kostroma and Ivano-Frankfurt

    - Slovenia is standing out.

    Z282 seems to be East European


    This is for a quick glance only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Z282 seems to be East European
    What is meant here by Z282 is actually Z282-Z280-Z92, which indeed looks North-East European. I speculate it will be tied to archeological cultures that are marked "Baltic" in Belarus, North Ukraine, Russia, Baltics. Now it is Balto-Slavic.
    M558 which is actually Z282-Z280-M558 looks really Slavic, brother of Baltic. Probably the Slovene tribe.
    M458 which is Z282-M458 is mystery. It is uncle to Baltic Z92 and Slavic M558, brother to their dad Z280 and brother of Germanic R1A clade. It is now West Slavic apparently, but what is was is a mystery. East Germanic? Sarmatian? Some other Slavic?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for those graphs. A bit offtopic - do you know if Underhill had also data for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland r1a?
    It seems that no (which surprised me too).

    but not Wroclaw, many citizens come from Ukraine and Belarus
    Indeed. According to Polish 1950 census, about 40% of population of Wroclaw Voivodeship (677,684 out of 1,698,911) were Poles from Kresy (Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania - mostly Ukraine in this case). But in the city of Wroclaw itself, that number was smaller (about 31% - 95,911 out of 308,925). If excluding people whose origin could not be established (21,874 people of "unknown origin" in the Voivodeship, including 4,157 in the city itself), then among the remainders people from Kresy were almost 40,5% in the Voivodeship (677,684 out of 1,677,037) and about 31,5% in the City (95,911 out of 304,768). In 2012 in Poland there was a survey carried out by CBOS (Centre for Public Opinion Research). People were asked if they have ancestors born in Kresy (who came after WW2). According to this survey 47% of inhabitants of Wroclaw Voivodeship (now renamed Lower Silesia Voivodeship) have them. This includes: people personally born in Kresy (old people), people with 2 or 1 parents born there, people with any number of grandparents (4, 3, 2, 1) born there and people with any number of great-grandparents born there. So percent of people with ancestry from Kresy has increased, even though this Voivodeship has a positive migration balance (people from other regions of Poland have been immigrating there between 1950 and present). But this increase is most certainly due to mixed marriages, and CBOS figure includes also people with only partial Kresy ancestry, who were born to such mixed couples.

    Territorial origin of population of Wrocław Voivodeship and the City of Wrocław in 1950:

    Area - voivodeship / city:

    From annexed German area (locals) - 97,867 (5,76%) / 9,103 (2,95%)
    Eastern Poles from Kresy - 677,684 (39,89%) / 95,911 (31,05%)
    South-Eastern (Lesser) Poland - 427,980 (25,19%) / 70,121 (22,70%)
    From Polish Upper Silesia - 60,296 (3,55%) / 12,063 (3,90%)
    North-Western (Greater) Poland - 266,702 (15,70%) / 68,233 (22,09%)
    Pomerelia-Kashubia ("Polish Corridor") - 4,446 (0,26%) / 1,375 (0,45%)
    From Mazovia (including Warsaw) - 121,485 (7,15%) / 41,768 (13,52%)
    North-Eastern Poland (Podlasie-Suwalki) - 20,577 (1,21%) / 6,194 (2,00%)
    Unknown / impossible to establish - 21,874 (1,29%) / 4,157 (1,34%)

    Total - 1,698,911 (100,00%) / 308,925 (100,00%)

    - Poles
    But I have not yet checked where exactly was this Underhill's sample for Poland (109) collected. Is it from many places located over entire Poland or only from one or a few places in some particular region? I will try to find information where did he collect this sample.

    Compared to Polish samples from other studies published so far, it has a rather small % of R1a (45,9% - 50 out of 109).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 18-12-14 at 01:30.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok
    - Slovenia is standing out.
    On another forum users from Slovenia wrote that ethnogenesis of Slovenes was the result of two Slavic migrations - one from the north (from the area of Czechoslovakia - probably from the region of Moravia, which is between Czechia and Slovakia) and one from the east (across the Balkans). The latter was more important (more numerous?), at least in the south, where modern Slovenia is located:

    http://historum.com/european-history...lovenia-5.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Shtajerc
    I found the info that the first wave of Slavic settlers, which were our ancestors is dated at around 550. Those were of West Slavic origin, most probably from Moravia. A second, South Slavic wave is dated at after 568, when the Langobards leave for Italy. This second wave is generally considered more important (more numerous or something). Be it how it may, we still had a connection with West Slavs until the arrival of Hungarians and there are obvious traces in our language that show a similarity with West Slavic languages, especially Slovakian and to some degree Czech. Of course, there was a lot of South Slavic influence too over the time and today one considers Slovene as a South Slavic language with West Slavic elements. I was once told that linguists considered us West Slavic until the 19th century. I wonder if it's true, I couldn't find any good info on that.

    But Slovene certainly isn't a mix of, let's say Slovakian and Croatian. There are many things that aren't alike in any of them or other languages.
    Let's also add that Slovenes in the Early Middle Ages (the earliest known texts in Old Slovene are the Freising Manuscripts) extended in the north as far as the Danube River. Their northern neighbours (across the river) were Czech-Moravian-Slovak tribes and their eastern neighbours were Pannonian Slavs (in the north) and Croats. That was before the Magyar invasion and Bavarian expansion (which resulted in the creation of Austria). This map shows the original extent of Slovene-speakers (green area) and borders of modern Slovenia:



    Pannonian Slavs (eastern neighbours of Slovenes) spoke a distinct dialect: http://linguistlist.org/pubs/diss/br...cfm?DissID=819

    The Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century (YT wrongly describes them as written in "Old Slavonic", in fact it was already a clearly differentiated Old Slovene - distinct from other Slavic languages & dialects, like Old Church Slavonic, Pannonian, etc.):



    What is interesting is that Austrians today have a higher % of R1a than Slovenes (according to Underhill's study).

    And according to Kalevi Wiik's study, inhabitants of the Austrian city of Graz (Gradec in Slovene) have 43% (!) of R1a.

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    When I'm back home I will check what subclades of R1a Austrians have according to Underhill.

    I expect a kind of link between Czechoslovakia and Slovenia there, something intermediate.

    BTW - is it just me or it seems that Underhill's data confirms that Croats came to the Balkans from the north, from White Croatia located perhaps somewhere along the Carpathians? It seems that "orange" is more typically West Slavic (especially Czech-Moravian and Slovak) and "green" is more typically South Slavic. This also confirms what Shtajerc from Historum wrote about greater importance of eastern migration in ethnogenesis of Slovenes, at least these from modern Slovenia (I expect more "orange" in Austria, though). But Croats have more "orange" than other South Slavs, it seems.

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    What are Austrian r1a clades according Underhill? Sorry did not notice your post above :)
    Last edited by arvistro; 18-12-14 at 12:38. Reason: too late :)

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    OK - I did check this.

    Unfortunately, Austria in Underhill's study has a terribly small sample - only 19 men...

    And among this sample 5 men (26,3%) have R1a, including:

    Z282 ("blue") - 0
    M458 ("orange") - 1 (5,3%)
    M558 ("green") - 2 (10,5%)

    And this which would be counted as "other" in the graph above:

    M582 ("yellow") - 2 (10,5%)

    Let's add that among "others" (3 men in total) from Slovenia, there is no M582 (but 2 men with Z93 and 1 man with Z284).

    Anyway, samples below 20 people are not really trustworthy, AFAIK.

    But my opinion that there should be more "orange" in Austria is confirmed (5,3% versus 2,22% - 4 men - in Slovenia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    OK - I did check this.

    Unfortunately, Austria in Underhill's study has a terribly small sample - only 19 men...

    And among this sample 5 men (26,3%) have R1a, including:

    Z282 ("blue") - 0
    M458 ("orange") - 1 (5,3%)
    M558 ("green") - 2 (10,5%)

    And this which would be counted as "other" in the graph above:

    M582 ("yellow") - 2 (10,5%)

    Let's add that among "others" (3 men in total) from Slovenia, there is no M582 (but 2 men with Z93 and 1 man with Z284).

    Anyway, samples below 20 people are not really trustworthy, AFAIK.

    But my opinion that there should be more "orange" in Austria is confirmed (5,3% versus 2,22% - 4 men - in Slovenia).
    do the lombards and Rugii ( both from ancient north poland ) have any R1a..............they both settled in vienna area for a few centuries
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    No ancient Y-DNA from territory of Poland has been extracted so far, AFAIK. Only mtDNA.

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    Some people in Wroclaw or voivodeship have Greater Poland ancestors but their ancestry could be from The Netherlands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ol%C4%99drzy or even Scotland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people#Poland So not only Germanic (or/and Scandinavian I1) or Slavic are they. Besides all R1a subclades are Sarmatian, Scythian or Balts for me. Slavs go to south in VII century. We speak what we speak as Turkish people speak german language in Germany, isn't it?
    "We" were baptised two times. One from Byzanthine Empire (Cyril and Methodius and Great Moravia, there wasn't Poland nor Czechs yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_...n_to_the_Slavs), second by Holy Roman (German) Empire. "We" Sarmatians and Scythians who cross Vistula border (west) with Huns (east people conglomerate) in V century.

    The winners impose their will, language and religion. Some real Slavs (I2a1b) stayed in todays Poland or Bohemia, so the language learning process was quite easy.

    Od course this is only my point of view.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The previous chart I posted compared percent and clades of R1a among various Slavic group.

    This chart below does not take into account overall amount of R1a, but only composition of R1a.

    So in case of each group R1a is 100% and the graph shows how large % of R1a is each subclade:

    http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png



    Russians of Kostroma seem to be the most "average" Slavic group when it comes to proportions of R1a clades.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma

    But on the other hand, Ukrainians from Donetsk have the most even proportions (roughly 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3).

    Here the same data (plus "other" subclades):

    A very interesting correlation can be seen (with only a few exceptions):

    [WeS] - West Slavs
    [EaS] - East Slavs
    [SoS] - South Slavs

    And this correlation (there are a few exceptions, as you can see below) is as follows:

    West Slavs = more of M458
    East Slavs = more of Z282
    South Slavs = more of M558

    Group (Z282 / M458 / M558 / other - as % of total R1a):

    [WeS] Czechs----------------------------(10,1 / 79,8 / 10,1 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Czechs Utah----------------------(0,0 / 70,0 / 19,9 / 10,1)
    [SoS] Croatia mainland------------------(16,0 / 68,0 / 16,0 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-------------(22,4 / 53,1 / 24,5 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Poland----------------------------(4,0 / 58,0 / 38,0 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Slovakia--------------------------(4,1 / 46,2 / 48,0 / 1,7)
    [SoS] Bulgaria---------------------------(10,8 / 42,0 / 40,4 / 6,8)
    [WeS] Poles Wroclaw-------------------(17,6 / 43,2 / 39,2 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frank.----------(8,1 / 40,0 / 51,9 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Belarusians Brest-Lit.-------------(15,8 / 38,6 / 45,6 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Kostroma---------------(18,9 / 37,4 / 43,7 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk---------------(30,4 / 30,4 / 37,0 / 2,2)
    [EaS] Russians Pskov-------------------(37,1 / 25,8 / 35,5 / 1,6)
    [EaS] Belarusians------------------------(38,4 / 23,2 / 38,4 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Belgorod--------------(49,9 / 11,6 / 38,5 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk--------------(39,4 / 15,7 / 44,9 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------(25,9 / 18,8 / 55,3 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Oryol--------------------(25,0 / 23,6 / 51,4 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Serbia------------------------------(17,9 / 23,2 / 47,0 / 11,9)
    [SoS] Macedonia-------------------------(18,0 / 27,3 / 54,7 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Bosnia-----------------------------(19,8 / 19,8 / 60,4 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Slovenia---------------------------(0,0 / 10,7 / 83,9 / 5,4)
    [SoS] Herzegovina-----------------------(6,2 / 6,2 / 87,6 / 0,0)

    BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 20-12-14 at 04:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The previous chart I posted compared percent and clades of R1a among various Slavic group.

    This chart below does not take into account overall amount of R1a, but only composition of R1a.

    So in case of each group R1a is 100% and the graph shows how large % of R1a is each subclade:

    http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png



    Russians of Kostroma seem to be the most "average" Slavic group when it comes to proportions of R1a clades.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma

    But on the other hand, Ukrainians from Donetsk have the most even proportions (roughly 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3).

    Here the same data (plus "other" subclades):

    A very interesting correlation can be seen (with only a few exceptions):

    [WeS] - West Slavs
    [EaS] - East Slavs
    [SoS] - South Slavs

    And this correlation (there are a few exceptions, as you can see below) is as follows:

    West Slavs = more of M458
    East Slavs = more of Z282
    South Slavs = more of M558

    Group (Z282 / M458 / M558 / other - as % of total R1a):

    [WeS] Czechs----------------------------(10,1 / 79,8 / 10,1 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Czechs Utah----------------------(0,0 / 70,0 / 19,9 / 10,1)
    [SoS] Croatia mainland------------------(16,0 / 68,0 / 16,0 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-------------(22,4 / 53,1 / 24,5 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Poland----------------------------(4,0 / 58,0 / 38,0 / 0,0)
    [WeS] Slovakia--------------------------(4,1 / 46,2 / 48,0 / 1,7)
    [SoS] Bulgaria---------------------------(10,8 / 42,0 / 40,4 / 6,8)
    [WeS] Poles Wroclaw-------------------(17,6 / 43,2 / 39,2 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frank.----------(8,1 / 40,0 / 51,9 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Belarusians Brest-Lit.-------------(15,8 / 38,6 / 45,6 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Kostroma---------------(18,9 / 37,4 / 43,7 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk---------------(30,4 / 30,4 / 37,0 / 2,2)
    [EaS] Russians Pskov-------------------(37,1 / 25,8 / 35,5 / 1,6)
    [EaS] Belarusians------------------------(38,4 / 23,2 / 38,4 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Belgorod--------------(49,9 / 11,6 / 38,5 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk--------------(39,4 / 15,7 / 44,9 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------(25,9 / 18,8 / 55,3 / 0,0)
    [EaS] Russians Oryol--------------------(25,0 / 23,6 / 51,4 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Serbia------------------------------(17,9 / 23,2 / 47,0 / 11,9)
    [SoS] Macedonia-------------------------(18,0 / 27,3 / 54,7 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Bosnia-----------------------------(19,8 / 19,8 / 60,4 / 0,0)
    [SoS] Slovenia---------------------------(0,0 / 10,7 / 83,9 / 5,4)
    [SoS] Herzegovina-----------------------(6,2 / 6,2 / 87,6 / 0,0)

    BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.
    so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs

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    so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs
    What makes you think so ???

    East Slavs have a lot of M558 as well. Eastern Slavic R1a is the most diverse of all Slavs, in terms of diversity of subclades.

    In general this data shows that East Slavs are genetically "in the middle" between West Slavs (one extreme) and most of South Slavs (the opposite extreme). This seems to confirm that Slavs expanded from East to West and South. And also from West to South, since Croats seem to be descendants of the same group of people as Czechs (maybe similarity of names is not a coincidence).

    And apparently Slavs moving into the Balkans carried more of M558, while Slavs moving into Central Europe carried more of M458.

    As for Z282 it was Balto-Slavic rather than exclusively Slavic perhaps (which explains higher frequency among East Slavs).

    =================================

    It is interesting that Russians from Kostroma (at the Volga) are the most "average" Slavs.

    And Ukrainians from Donetsk have equal proportions of Z282 / M458 / M558 (roughly 1/3 of each).

    There is a theory that Slavs had first expanded from the Volga Region to Ukraine. And later from Ukraine onwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    BTW - resemblance between Czechs and mainland Croats is striking. As if they were one group that split in two.
    I noticed that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so, apart form Bulgars and croats , the other SOS members are not really slavs
    I actually think it was opposite - Green is original Slavic. But we need to wait for updated study because Underhill seriously failed in understanding R1a tree*...

    Also from other study it seems green is the most common r1a clade in Lithuania as well (z280+, z92-) was more than z92+. Although it was the infamous study which claimed most of Croat r1a was z280...

    *Z282 is ancestral to all three clades in the study :) on top of that it is ancestral to Germanic clade in Scandinavia.

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    actually think it was opposite - Green is original Slavic.
    Do you seriously think that when Slavic ethnogenesis took place, they were 100% of R1a HG and 100% just one subclade? IMO all 3 discussed subclades of R1a were present among Slavs since their emergence. As well as some other HGs, including I2 (after all, even the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture was not fully R1a).

    Z282 is ancestral to all three clades in the study
    There are more than three clades, but I lumped together remainders as "other".

    Scandinavian Z284 is also included in this study. I will upload the excel file later.

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    What I am saying is that in country x 10% of z282, 10% of m558 and 10% of m458, means 10% of animals, 10% of collies and 10% of cats structurally. When obviously all 30% are animals.

    As long as we all understand this, I am cool.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sure, but Underhill's Z282 does not include Z284 because he counted Z284 separately.

    Later I will list all the clades that are counted in this study separately.

    As for Slavic expansion into the Balkans and into Central Europe - it now seems to me that Slavic Y-DNA (be it R1a or Slavic clades of I2, etc.) to a large extend did replace previous Y-DNA of people who had lived there before Slavs. This is also in agreement with written accounts describing Slavic invasions - for example sources such as Procopius of Caesarea and Theophylact Simocatta indicated that once enslaving local inhabitants, Slavic invaders were usually murdering males and taking possession of women and children. These accounts also inform us, that once taking people into slavery, Slavs kept them in slavery only for a limited period of time, and later they were offering them freedom as equal members of their democratic tribal communities (alternatively they could also go back to their previous people, but only if they paid for permission to go away). So Slavic communities consisted of "original Slavs" and enslaved by them - but later liberated and assimilated - foreigners. However, considering the frequent Slavic habit of killing captured males, it seems that among males "original" Slavs had to be overrepresented, while among females absorbed Non-Slavic elements were perhaps more or equally numerous (let me remind you that Pagan Slavs practiced polygamy - so men could have many wifes, not just one).

    This might also explain why in Poland there is continuity of ancient mtDNA (but apparently not of Y-DNA).

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    Racially they have probably some Germanic admix.,from ancient Goths, Germans or Swedes,
    Swedes

    I'm sure that Eastern-Germany is more Slavic than Poland is Germanic.
    I think Eastern Germany is Germanic with a minor Slavic

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    4 members found this post helpful.

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    The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.



    M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

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