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Thread: New map of Ancient Eurasian (ANE) admixture

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Maybe not all of ANE in Scotland is IEan, but mesolithic samples from east (Scandinavia) had less ANE than contemp. Scots, and La Brana and Loschbourg from the south had none. So a decent part in Scots must be of different origin. Also they consistently show West-Asian admixture in most calculators, which was completely absent in all hunter-gatherers so far.

    What I don't understand is how is it possible that south-eastern europe has so low ANE while having highest 'West-Asian' (or alike) in all calculators. West-Asian should contain 1/3 ANE.
    For example Bulgaria had one of the highest 'Caucasus' admixture (~30%) in Europe, yet in this map the Turks are the ones who have high ANE but neighbouring Bulgarians have even less then central and north Europe. I can't make sense of it. I know that ANE does not imply West-Asian, but West-Asian should always imply some ANE.

    I agree that ANE=Indo-European is too simplistic, especially when I look at southern europe. but for the rest it is still consistent.

    I'll keep making bets about these things because it makes fun. If I'm wrong, I will survive it :).

    Caucasus is the portion of "West Asian" which consists less ANE. The break up of this component shows it is some 58% "West Asian" some 34% "Southern" and some 8% "North European".
    Gedrosia is actually the "purer" form of West Asian and it's break up shows it is, 92% "West Asian" and 8% "ANI".
    And if you keep a close look at Data from the Caucasus you will realize that Populations with more Gedrosia have higher ANE than populations with less. See Lezgins vs Georgians as example.

    Bulgarians have roughly 18% West Asian. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...owsperpage=250

    If 1/3 of this is ANE. This would correspondence to ~5.4% ANE. The rest of their ANE they got from their North European percentage what pretty much fits the figures.
    Last edited by Alan; 31-12-14 at 19:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The figures for Turkey and Iran are slightly Incorrect. I made my own calculation on the Eurogenes data yesterday. In Iran ANE reaches an average of 20% even in the Southwestern Portions, which is here colored in the 15-17.5%.
    Among Turks ANE reaches at max 16%. The frequency rises towards 19.5% to Kurds and 19% towards Georgia/Laz.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t#gid=62882571


    So it doesn't have much to do with Turkic but Indo_Iranian and Caucasian expansion as a whole.

    You should have used the most recent Calculator of Eurogenes West_Eurasia K8
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2014/12...-triangle.html


    ANE in North Caucasians indeed reaches levels of 27% and their WHG is ~9%.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t#gid=62882571
    Thanks. I hadn't noticed the West_Eurasia K8 calculator. I will correct the map accordingly. However the WHG percentages do not correspond at all to the ones I used for the map.

    correction: Kurds are not Turkic people.
    Sorry about that. I wrote too quickly and somehow mixed up Turkic and Indo-Iranian, probably because of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks. I hadn't noticed the West_Eurasia K8 calculator. I will correct the map accordingly. However the WHG percentages do not correspond at all to the ones I used for the map.
    Yes there is indeed more WHG in North Caucasus, Turkey/Anatolia and parts of the Levant. WHG in North Africa is relatively strong.

    You can use this map If it helps.

    Legend

    ENF: Early Neolithic Farmer /Near Eastern
    ANE: Ancient North Eurasian
    WHG: Western Hunters&Gatherers
    SEA: South Eurasian (seems to be some kind of South_Central Asian component related to ANE)
    EEA: East Eurasian
    OCE: Oceanian
    SSA: Sub Saharan African (but is in my opinion more of an "East African" type).

    Components <1% were not taken into consideration.

    http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...gjpclfv1a0.png

    Update: Jews-Samaritans and Palestinians added. Samaritans seem to be best proxy for ENF with 87.5%.

    Sorry about that. I wrote too quickly and somehow mixed up Turkic and Indo-Iranian, probably because of this.
    No problem.
    Last edited by Alan; 02-01-15 at 06:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Nice, thank you for all your efforts. Is it possible to use Eurogenes West Eurasion K8 and scale up 25>% to pick up Caucasus region groups like Tabasarrans; expand map a little to include a little more of Caspian[East and North]?
    I have added a new shade for >25%, but I cannot easily expand the map eastward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Yes there is indeed more WHG in North Caucasus, Turkey/Anatolia and parts of the Levant. WHG in North Africa is relatively strong.

    You can use this map If it helps.

    Legend

    ENF: Early Neolithic Farmer /Near Eastern
    ANE: Ancient North Eurasian
    WHG: Western Hunters&Gatherers
    SEA: South Eurasian (seems to be some kind of South_Central Asian component related to ANE)
    EEA: East Eurasian
    OCE: Oceanian
    SSA: Sub Saharan African (but is in my opinion more of an "East African" type).

    Components <1% were not taken into consideration.

    http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...atxsmp35d2.png





    No problem.
    Thanks again. Since the WHG percentage varies a lot between calculators, I have checked where Maghrebians and North Caucasians stood compared to the lowest known WHG percentages in Europe (namely Sicily and Cyprus). Since they are both lower than Sicily, I have classified both regions in the <5% shade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added a new shade for >25%, but I cannot easily expand the map eastward.

    Thank's professor for all your hard work and dedication; and Tomatoes for K8, it's perfect. Best wish and happy 2015 for all your friends and loved ones.

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    ANE high among Kets Caucasus people and Tajiks(close to Burusho people)
    Ket Burushaski and Caucasian laguages are "Sino-Caucasian"
    http://f-picture.net/fp/b267ea42bcf1...c226f1cd1c1fdb

    The picture is from
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg271516

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    My wifes mom is Turkish/greek/bulgar I think and dad is Albanian. Here are the results
    you can see there is some kind of mix

    Population
    ANE 14.25%
    ASE 2.40%
    WHG-UHG 31.20%
    East_Eurasian 6.23%
    West_African 0.24%
    East_African -
    ENF 45.69%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    ANE high among Kets Caucasus people and Tajiks(close to Burusho people)
    Ket Burushaski and Caucasian laguages are "Sino-Caucasian"
    http://f-picture.net/fp/b267ea42bcf1...c226f1cd1c1fdb

    The picture is from
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg271516
    The map is still not accurate for Western Asia. On the map it looks like Turkey has more ANE than Kurdistan and is on level with Iran while in reality from any single calculator or sample I have seen Kurdistan has around 3% more ANE than Turkey.

    Also there seems to be no samples for Kalash on this map otherwise they would probably score one of the highers(probably the highest) percentage,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    ANE high among Kets Caucasus people and Tajiks(close to Burusho people)
    Ket Burushaski and Caucasian laguages are "Sino-Caucasian"
    http://f-picture.net/fp/b267ea42bcf1...c226f1cd1c1fdb

    The picture is from
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg271516
    Who makes this map for Gods sake. How can Armenia, Turkey and Azerbaijan have more ANE than Kurdistan? The map just like it's predecessor has no value if it does not hold on the data.
    It looks like Turkey has more ANE than Kurdistan. But in reality in all calculators Kurds score around 3% more ANE than Turks. So how comes this false calculations?

    Also there seems to be no samples of Kalash. If there was Kalash would score one of the highest (probably the highest) percentage of ANE.
    Here is a better map of ANE admixture someone made. It is a 100% calculated map based on Eurogenes K8. The 13.7% under the Kurdish 19.3% is Assyrian. The Iranian samples are from Behat et al. . And as confirmed by Behar they are from South/Southwestern Iran.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-01-15 at 21:22.

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    Obviously, ANE doesn't mean the whole IE’ans,. The Maciamo's ANE Map, showed 10-15% ANE in Iberia, While this other Maciamo's map show 50-90?% celtic blood in Spain, the second celtic blood nation after Ireland and probably the first in people number. Aren't Celts IE’s?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    Obviously, ANE doesn't mean the whole IE’ans,. The Maciamo's ANE Map, showed 10-15% ANE in Iberia, While this other Maciamo's map show 50-90?% celtic blood in Spain, the second celtic blood nation after Ireland and probably the first in people number. Aren't Celts IE’s?



    ANE is an component of Proto Indo Europeans. Large majority of it reached Europe during Bronze Age with Indo Europeans and as such it is the most accurate signal of Indo European ancestry.

    However Indo European genome was not all ANE. The major component among them was probably still ENF (Early Neolithic famers) it's just that ENF component beside WHG already existed in Europe and therefore we can not trace Indo European ancestry based on these. So ANE remains as only signal tracing Indo European ancestry.

    However We are talking here about Proto Indo Europeans, Celts as Indo Europeans who have evolved most likely outside the original Proto Indo European homeland were genetically already different from Proto Indo Europeans. So Iberia can be as high as 40% (in my opinion most Iberians are basically, firstly celtified/romanized Proto Basque like people) "Italo_Celtic" and still be only 20-30% Proto Indo European.

    By the way this is a map of Italo_celtic yDNA. ydna=|= aDNA.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Who makes this map for Gods sake. How can Armenia, Turkey and Azerbaijan have more ANE than Kurdistan? The map just like it's predecessor has no value if it does not hold on the data.
    It looks like Turkey has more ANE than Kurdistan. But in reality in all calculators Kurds score around 3% more ANE than Turks. So how comes this false calculations?

    Also there seems to be no samples of Kalash. If there was Kalash would score one of the highest (probably the highest) percentage of ANE.
    Here is a better map of ANE admixture someone made. It is a 100% calculated map based on Eurogenes K8. The 13.7% under the Kurdish 19.3% is Assyrian. The Iranian samples are from Behat et al. . And as confirmed by Behar they are from South/Southwestern Iran.
    It must be eurogenes, "fishing" for a slavic path into Europe
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    So how comes this false calculations?
    Where do you see the false if Kurds are not considered?
    Only those whose name is in the map are considered.
    http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1412/ad/41ee935ebae1.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Where do you see the false if Kurds are not considered?
    Only those whose name is in the map are considered.
    http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1412/ad/41ee935ebae1.png
    If the dude who made the map used Eurogenes K8 calculator

    As seen here from the link.
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg271516

    Why did he not "consider" the Kurds in his map? There is no freaking reason to not use Kurds in your consideration if you use a database which does have a good amount of Kurdish samples. The explanation for this is some hidden agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Where do you see the false if Kurds are not considered?
    Only those whose name is in the map are considered.
    http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1412/ad/41ee935ebae1.png
    If the User who made that map used Eurogenes K8 as seen from this link. => http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg271516 Why didn't he take the Kurdish samples into "consideration" despite there beeing a number of samples? I have no explanation for that beside maybe some hidden agenda.

    So if you are going to make a map based on a database and when you have samples of a region, than use them and don't make simply some shades of color based on your "opinion". Otherwise there is no difference to making a map out of the air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Where do you see the false if Kurds are not considered?
    Only those whose name is in the map are considered.
    http://s011.radikal.ru/i317/1412/ad/41ee935ebae1.png
    If the User who made that map used Eurogenes K8 as seen from the link you provided. Why didn't he take the Kurdish samples into "consideration" despite there beeing a number of samples? I have no explanation for that beside maybe some hidden agenda.

    So if he is going to make a map based on a database, than he should use the whole database and don't make some shades of color out of his not explainable "opinion". Otherwise there is no difference to making a map out of the air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    If the User who made that map used Eurogenes K8 as seen from the link you provided. Why didn't he take the Kurdish samples into "consideration" despite there beeing a number of samples? I have no explanation for that beside maybe some hidden agenda.

    So if he is going to make a map based on a database, than he should use the whole database and don't make some shades of color out of his not explainable "opinion". Otherwise there is no difference to making a map out of the air.
    I asked 10 days ago only about Burusho, not about Kurds.


    And he answered
    (translated text from Russian)
    ""I overlooked when I drawed the map, it turns out that the Burusho people, are also in the dataset""

    Я проглядел, когда рисовал карту, буриши, оказывается, тоже есть в таблице:
    Afghan_Hazara 21,3937
    Afghan_Pashtun 30,47106
    Afghan_Tadjik 26,15578
    Afghan_Turkmen 22,1969
    Afghan_Uzbeki 25,28598
    Burusho 34,406316
    Tadjik 27,53793571


    So I don't think that there were "hidden agenda"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    I asked 10 days ago only about Burusho, not about Kurds.


    And he answered
    (translated text from Russian)
    ""I overlooked when I drawed the map, it turns out that the Burusho people, are also in the dataset""

    Я проглядел, когда рисовал карту, буриши, оказывается, тоже есть в таблице:
    Afghan_Hazara 21,3937
    Afghan_Pashtun 30,47106
    Afghan_Tadjik 26,15578
    Afghan_Turkmen 22,1969
    Afghan_Uzbeki 25,28598
    Burusho 34,406316
    Tadjik 27,53793571


    So I don't think that there were "hidden agenda"
    SOO he "overlooked" the data, found the Burusho. He found 4 Ket samples but wasn't able to see the 6 Kurdish samples? No "hidden agenda?" Give me a break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    SOO he "overlooked" the data, found the Burusho. He found 4 Ket samples but wasn't able to see the 6 Kurdish samples? No "hidden agenda?" Give me a break.
    He is Russian and I would say that he is mostly interested about people who lived in Russian Empire + Europe, and not about people like Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    He is Russian and I would say that he is mostly interested about people who lived in Russian Empire + Europe, and not about people like Kurds.
    Just lol. No one asked for his interest of Kurds. What kind of absolutely ridiculous excuse is this to defend his falsifying of data?

    So because I am interested more in Western Asia and it's history I should start to make a map which shows 80% ANE there and expect anyone else too consider my map as "reliable work".

    Thats exactly what you are telling me. If you aren't interested in other groups beside the Russian Empire+Europe than don't make a freakn fake map about the other region just to make it appear like the "Slavs" are the sources of all this.

    Just admit it you don't have an explanation for him not taking Kurdish samples into consideration and this is not the first time I have seen this on his maps. So hidden agenda is obvious.

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    LoL
    Alan so why in this map there is no Crimean results? What is the hidden agenda? LoL
    http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/conten..._admixture.png
    http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...geknb6c5ox.png

  24. #49
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    He is Russian and I would say that he is mostly interested about people who lived in Russian Empire + Europe, and not about people like Kurds.
    If he is only interested in russians then he should not show anything ( any details ) outside of russia ................besides he must be a very poor , when he bases his information on modern nationality .................

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    Robert6 for Gods sake dude even despite you asking him about Burusho and Kurds he totally avoided to give you an answer concerning the Kurds. How much more obvious does it need to be to know that this wannabe scientist has an obvious agenda? If it was his first map in this manner I wouldn't react like that but he did it already earlier. So he obviously is going after and agenda, what ever it might be.

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