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Thread: New map of West European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) admixture

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    4 members found this post helpful.

    Post New map of West European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) admixture

    Here is the last of the three admixture maps based on Lazaridis et al. (2014) and Eurogenes.

    This map compares the genes of modern people to the DNA of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour cave in Luxembourg, who lived 8000 years ago and belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5. It is supposed to reflect the percentage of similarity with the Late Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Western Europe. Nowadays this admixture peaks among the Estonians (49.5%), Finns (47%), Lithuanians (46.5%), Icelanders (45.5%) and Orcadians (45.5%).

    Note that I don't have the data for the North Caucasus and the Maghreb. The Maghreb could be interesting as the region has about 5% of U2+U4+U5, but also about 5% of HV0 or V, which are all potentially descended from Palaeolithic or Mesolithic European. So it's not necessarily under 5%, although surely under 10%.


    Last edited by Maciamo; 30-12-14 at 19:48.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the last of the three admixture maps based on Lazaridis et al. (2014).

    This map compares the genes of modern people to the DNA of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour cave in Luxembourg, who lived 8000 years ago and belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b and mtDNA haplogroup U5. It is supposed to reflect the percentage of similarity with the Late Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Western Europe. Nowadays this admixture peaks among the Estonians (49.5%), Finns (47%), Lithuanians (46.5%), Icelanders (45.5%) and Orcadians (45.5%).

    Note that I don't have the data for the North Caucasus and the Maghreb. The Maghreb could be interesting as the region has about 5% of U2+U4+U5, but also about 5% of HV0 or V, which are all potentially descended from Palaeolithic or Mesolithic European. So it's not necessarily under 5%, although surely under 10%.



    Sorry to be nitpicking, Maciamo, but are these indeed the values from Lazaridis et al?

    From the chart below, Bergamo is .177 WHG and Toscana .136. Also, North Spain is .125, and the rest of Spain doesn't score 10%. (.068)

    Are these perhaps based on Eurogenes figures?



    Ed. To correct typo "under 10%", not 1%.
    Last edited by Angela; 30-12-14 at 20:30.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry to be nitpicking, Maciamo, but are these indeed the values from Lazaridis et al?

    From the chart below, Bergamo is .177 WHG and Toscana .136. Also, North Spain is .125, and the rest of Spain doesn't score 1%. (.068)

    Are these perhaps based on Eurogenes figures?
    Yes i agree with you. In addition to there aren't samples from continental southern Italy, central Italy, Portugal, Turkey and Middle East.
    Spanish have 0,68, and as far as i know the french south are french basque.
    And finns, russian north and mordovians aren't part of the table as far as i know.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville;447351as far as i know the french south are french basque.
    And finns, russian north and mordovians aren't part of the table as far as i know.

    [URL
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-1.pdf[/URL]
    Ed. No, the French south figures are indeed the figures for what would generally have been, in the past, Aquitania. There are no samples for France-south east.
    At least that's my recollection. The Basque figures in the chart are the French Basque. Figures are not given for Pais Vasco. The Greeks, to my recollection, are from Thessaly.

    I'll check though. I just wish the supplement wasn't so long. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry to be nitpicking, Maciamo, but are these indeed the values from Lazaridis et al?

    From the chart below, Bergamo is .177 WHG and Toscana .136. Also, North Spain is .125, and the rest of Spain doesn't score 1%. (.068)

    Are these perhaps based on Eurogenes figures?
    I have used both Eurogenes and Lazaridis as there is much more data from Eurogenes. The data for Italy is exactly what you quote: 17.7% in northern Italy and 13.6% in Tuscany. Regarding Spain, the regional data is indeed from Eurogenes. However, .068 means 6.8%, not 0.68%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have used both Eurogenes and Lazaridis as there is much more data from Eurogenes. The data for Italy is exactly what you quote: 17.7% in northern Italy and 13.6% in Tuscany. Regarding Spain, the regional data is indeed from Eurogenes. However, .068 means 6.8%, not 0.68%.
    Well goodness, that was careless of me. Thank-you for catching it. I'll have to proof read more carefully in the future, and not only my grammar. I obviously meant under 10%.

    My only concern is that the Eurogenes analysis may have produced an "ANE" component which may not be precisely equivalent to that of Lazardis et al.
    Last edited by Angela; 30-12-14 at 23:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My only concern is that the Eurogenes analysis may have produced an "ANE" component which may not be precisely equivalent to that of Lazardis et al.
    Whenever there was a discrepency between Lazaridis and Eurogenes I have used the Eurogenes data, so the map is consistent overall. I did it for WHG, ANE and EEF.

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    Aren't the greek samples only from the north?

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    In the same Eurogenes Sicily is around 25% and Abruzzo 26% as far as i know.

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    The greek samples are from Thessaloniki.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    The greek samples are from Thessaloniki.

    Hmmm, sampling in urban areas is not quite smart.

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    A Sami from Finland scored 57% WHG on ANE K7, which is around what French and people from central Europe score, so not very high. Because of East Asian admixture Sami, have less WHG than other NE Europeans. The same goes for Finno-Urgics and Turks in Russia.

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    You can use stats from ANE K8, which is a Eurogenes test which will be on GEDmatch after New years. You should use it because it takes out east Asian and African admixture.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/1...t-to-east.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Note that I don't have the data for the North Caucasus and the Maghreb. The Maghreb could be interesting as the region has about 5% of U2+U4+U5, but also about 5% of HV0 or V, which are all potentially descended from Palaeolithic or Mesolithic European. So it's not necessarily under 5%, although surely under 10%.
    NW Africans in ANE K8 score 15-20% WHG, higher than any near easterns, even though they have alot of African ancestry. Also, several Siberians score significant WHG, and no Near eastern, suggesting they admixed with Mesolithic not modern Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    NW Africans in ANE K8 score 15-20% WHG, higher than any near easterns, even though they have alot of African ancestry. Also, several Siberians score significant WHG, and no Near eastern, suggesting they admixed with Mesolithic not modern Europeans.
    Indeed I'm 28% WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moor View Post
    Indeed I'm 28% WHG.
    That's alot higher than near easterns score in ANE K7. It won't be very difficult to discern whether that WHG is from Mesolithic or modern Euro admixture, and I think most if it is Mesolithic. It could also simply be NW African, because WHG exists in all of west Eurasia it's just highest in Europe, and maybe it's next highest in NW Africa.

    Maciamo is right that there's a strange presence of typical WHG mtDNA in NW Africa, and maybe there's Y DNA I too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    That's alot higher than near easterns score in ANE K7. It won't be very difficult to discern whether that WHG is from Mesolithic or modern Euro admixture, and I think most if it is Mesolithic. It could also simply be NW African, because WHG exists in all of west Eurasia it's just highest in Europe, and maybe it's next highest in NW Africa.

    Maciamo is right that there's a strange presence of typical WHG mtDNA in NW Africa, and maybe there's Y DNA I too.
    Agree with you myself a K2b, but I don't feel good to see my region empty in the map lol.

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    How old is WHG in Europe ? is it related to Haplogroup C or I ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sidi-houari View Post
    How old is WHG in Europe ? is it related to Haplogroup C or I ?
    WHG formed after Last Glacial Maximum. The oldest one is Epigravettian from Italy and surprisingly it was R1b, but mostly they were hg I.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancien...pean_dna.shtml
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    WHG formed after Last Glacial Maximum. The oldest one is Epigravettian from Italy and surprisingly it was R1b, but mostly they were hg I.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancien...pean_dna.shtml
    How do you think the R1b1a;P297 Epigravettian Culture made it to Europe in 18,000 BC?




    http://www.archaeologywordsmith.com/...=Epigravettian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    NW Africans in ANE K8 score 15-20% WHG, higher than any near easterns, even though they have alot of African ancestry. Also, several Siberians score significant WHG, and no Near eastern, suggesting they admixed with Mesolithic not modern Europeans.
    To what archaeological culture or movement of people is this supposed to be tied, and based on what evidence? Ibero-Maurisian? What y dna? Has any basal "I2a" or "C" been found in North Africa? Or are people basing it on mtDNA? Those early studies on Mesolithic Iberian mtDna are pretty dodgy, in my opinion.

    Or is the speculation that the gene flow went in the other direction? That would certainly explain that "African" that showed up in some analyses of La Brana, and some of the mtDna L3 in Iberia, but again, with what migration and where is the archaeological trail?

    I don't mean to put you personally on the spot. I just want to know if any attempt is being made to put "components" like this in an archaeological or even anthropological context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To what archaeological culture or movement of people is this supposed to be tied, and based on what evidence? Ibero-Maurisian? What y dna? Has any basal "I2a" or "C" been found in North Africa? Or are people basing it on mtDNA? Those early studies on Mesolithic Iberian mtDna are pretty dodgy, in my opinion.

    Or is the speculation that the gene flow went in the other direction? That would certainly explain that "African" that showed up in some analyses of La Brana, and some of the mtDna L3 in Iberia, but again, with what migration and where is the archaeological trail?

    I don't mean to put you personally on the spot. I just want to know if any attempt is being made to put "components" like this in an archaeological or even anthropological context.
    I'd be willing to bet money on at least some of the WHG and EEF coming from Africa. If we look at EEF, which actually has more WHG than it does Basal Eurasian, the cline in Europe is not northwest to southeast, as it would be if the entry point for EEF was through the Balkans but simply north to south, with Sicily having more Basal Eurasian than is found in EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'd be willing to bet money on at least some of the WHG and EEF coming from Africa. If we look at EEF, which actually has more WHG than it does Basal Eurasian, the cline in Europe is not northwest to southeast, as it would be if the entry point for EEF was through the Balkans but simply north to south, with Sicily having more Basal Eurasian than is found in EEF.
    The reason Near eastern vs WHG and ANE ancestry in Europe doesn't follow the spread of farming is because later genetic turnovers occurred.

    Neolithic farmers in Spain(abstract of new study which sampled genomes, says most similar to Sardinians), Hungary, North Italy, Germany(Reich-Laz sampled them), and Sweden were all basically Sardinian or Basque with a 0 ANE, just 5,000 years ago.

    Suddenly during the bronze age in Germany and Hungary ANE pops up, WHG rises, and Near eastern decreases, and the people basically become modern Europeans. This was mostly caused by IEs from the steppe, who made a bigger effect on northern Europe than southern Europe, which is why southern Europeans are more closely related to Neolithic farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The reason Near eastern vs WHG and ANE ancestry in Europe doesn't follow the spread of farming is because later genetic turnovers occurred.

    Neolithic farmers in Spain(abstract of new study which sampled genomes, says most similar to Sardinians), Hungary, North Italy, Germany(Reich-Laz sampled them), and Sweden were all basically Sardinian or Basque with a 0 ANE, just 5,000 years ago.

    Suddenly during the bronze age in Germany and Hungary ANE pops up, WHG rises, and Near eastern decreases, and the people basically become modern Europeans. This was mostly caused by IEs from the steppe, who made a bigger effect on northern Europe than southern Europe, which is why southern Europeans are more closely related to Neolithic farmers.
    I agree with that explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    The reason Near eastern vs WHG and ANE ancestry in Europe doesn't follow the spread of farming is because later genetic turnovers occurred.

    Neolithic farmers in Spain(abstract of new study which sampled genomes, says most similar to Sardinians), Hungary, North Italy, Germany(Reich-Laz sampled them), and Sweden were all basically Sardinian or Basque with a 0 ANE, just 5,000 years ago.

    Suddenly during the bronze age in Germany and Hungary ANE pops up, WHG rises, and Near eastern decreases, and the people basically become modern Europeans. This was mostly caused by IEs from the steppe, who made a bigger effect on northern Europe than southern Europe, which is why southern Europeans are more closely related to Neolithic farmers.
    Poor reading comprehension, as usual. Your comment does not in any way address what I actually said. I was talking about the genetic makeup of Europeans prior to the introduction of ANE in Europe. I think that, regardless of where Basal Eurasian came from originally, it could have reached some parts of Europe from North Africa, rather than coming through the Balkans, just as was likely the case for some of the Paleolithic and Mesolithic European population. And of course what people generally seem to forget is that there's been repeated and massive population turnovers in North Africa, so even if we had better information about North African DNA, we wouldn't expect to find too much evidence of some of the migrations that passed through North Africa over the centuries. And yes, some of it came from Europe and a bit from Subsaharan Africa (probably quite a bit during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic) but most of it came from the Middle East in modern times and probably also during the Neolithic.

    Edit: To spell out what I thought was already clear, I was talking about the percentage of WHG to Basal Eurasian. I hope nobody is arguing that the IE expansion is the reason Sicilians have more Basal Eurasian than is found in Neolithic EEF samples. And while it's always dangerous to use modern populations to try to trace ancient population movements, some aspects of modern populations can only be explained in terms of Neolithic or earlier populations. If that wasn't true, there would be no point in these maps.
    Last edited by Aberdeen; 31-12-14 at 19:37. Reason: clarification

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