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Thread: Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Because I think that Yamna was most possibly proto-Indo-Iranian culture,
    and there is almost no R1a-Z93 in Yamna territories, for that reason I think that proto-Indo-Iranians left little genetic trace in India
    Okaaay. I guess that's one way you could look at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    That does not sound very Grigori Perelman to me......
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman
    In August 2006, Perelman was awarded the Fields Medal[1] for "his contributions to geometry and his revolutionary insights into the analytical and geometric structure of the Ricci flow." Perelman declined to accept the award or to appear at the congress, stating: "I'm not interested in money or fame; I don't want to be on display like an animal in a zoo."[2] On 22 December 2006, the scientific journal Science recognized Perelman's proof of the Poincaré conjecture as the scientific "Breakthrough of the Year", the first such recognition in the area of mathematics.[3]

    On 18 March 2010, it was announced that he had met the criteria to receive the first Clay Millennium Prize[4] for resolution of the Poincaré conjecture. On 1 July 2010, he turned down the prize of one million dollars, saying that he considered the award unfair and that his contribution to solving the Poincaré conjecture was no greater than that of Richard Hamilton, the mathematician who pioneered Ricci flow with the aim of attacking the conjecture.[5][6] He additionally turned down the prestigious prize of the European Mathematical Society.[7]
    That individual may be a bit of an anomaly, even in the world of mathematics. And mathematicians are generally considered to be a bit different when compared to other academics. And even when dealing with a mathematician who was willing to give up a million dollars as a matter of principal, you might have a different response if you tried to get your hands on his data.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I took the Yamnaya mtDNA and combined it with all of the other aDNA tested so far and grouped it by haplogroup, then I sorted it by date. I'll add mtDNA J & K later.


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    I'm in agreement with Maciamo. Yamna was a fusion culture. It was located enough North to protect HGs against being overrun by EEF, but not too far North not to be in contact. Creating Yamna and consequent Corded culture was a long process, probably 1 or 2 thousand years, till new blend of "Farmers of the North" was created. Pretty much on equal genetic footing of farmers to hunters.

    Angela will be right too, that picture we'll receive from the paper will be unclear, and it will bring more questions than answers. I hope, we are wrong, and paper will be rich in samples through time periods and locations, showing the full picture.

    The Northern regions of Yamna and younger periods should be rich in R1a, probably some I2 in the South. When I look at recent numbers for admixtures, the ratio of 70% WHG to 30% ANE makes most sense for all IE who expanded into Europe, most likely from Yamna. However it could have been a big difference between West Yamna and East Yamna horizont where almost pure ANE could have resided, giving start to R1a Z93, the steppe herders, Indo-Iranians.

    In the South by the Black Sea we should see more and more EEF, radiating from Cucuteni over millenia. By Corded period we should see similar ratios of admixtures as today in these areas.
    More farmer's haplogroups will be located in the South and West Yamna, G, E and J.
    Yamna lasted 1,500 years. Long enough to be different genetically at the beginning than at the end.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    What I just learned that is really interesting is that the red ochre burials of the Yamna was a custom that Neanderthals also practiced with their dead.

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    This works I think


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    @motzart,

    I think I might have understood what you did in the post above, but can you just give more details?
    Is light blue the same thing we call WHG? If so you correlated it with R1A, I, R1B? Because where there are a lot of those groups there is also portion of WHG? (as in "No R1a/R1b without WHG component")?
    Similarly you did for the others? The red circle is samish as EEF? So, there is no (or exceptionally rare) R1A, R1B, G2A without farming?
    The yellowish circle is what? ANE? And ANE surprisingly merges only J2A and R1A? Why not R1B or N1C? Because there are R1B/N1C rich populations without ANE?

    What are those colors for N1, E1B and J1? Also if we take N1C out of total N1 circle would it join the ANE/WHG circle? Meaning initial N1 careers might only hold this dark blue stuff, but when N1C1 was born they held also ANE/WHG?

    Sorry for many questions. I just enjoyed your work and want to learn more and if I get it correct.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    @motzart,

    I think I might have understood what you did in the post above, but can you just give more details?
    Is light blue the same thing we call WHG? If so you correlated it with R1A, I, R1B? Because where there are a lot of those groups there is also portion of WHG? (as in "No R1a/R1b without WHG component")?
    Similarly you did for the others? The red circle is samish as EEF? So, there is no (or exceptionally rare) R1A, R1B, G2A without farming?
    The yellowish circle is what? ANE? And ANE surprisingly merges only J2A and R1A? Why not R1B or N1C? Because there are R1B/N1C rich populations without ANE?

    What are those colors for N1, E1B and J1? Also if we take N1C out of total N1 circle would it join the ANE/WHG circle? Meaning initial N1 careers might only hold this dark blue stuff, but when N1C1 was born they held also ANE/WHG?

    Sorry for many questions. I just enjoyed your work and want to learn more and if I get it correct.
    FYI, that is not his work. These are the graphs from Lazaridis et al. that I edited last year and posted on the forum. Motzart just reposted it here.

    To answer your questions, yes blue represents WHG, pink EEF and beige ANE.

    The circles attempt to match these admixtures with Y-haplogroups, but looking at the region of origin of the haplogroups. That's why J2 is matched to ANE as it originated around Anatolia and Iran. It doesn't make sense if you look at other places with high percentages of J2 caused by a founder effect, like Crete or Sicily. I personally disagree with this approach as it makes it look like ANE originated with J2 people, which isn't the case. It's simply because the Indo-Europeans (eg. Hittites, Mitanni, Persians, Iranians, Scythians, Kurds) invaded Iran and Anatolia that these regions now have significant levels of ANE.

    In Europe ANE overlaps with N1c1 (due to intermixing with R1a populations), but that is not true for all haplogroup N1.
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    Thanks Maciamo. Of course, the more I understand, the more questions :)
    1. On relating WHG to both R groups (I simply don't know that is why I ask). Is WHG admixture always present for R1A & R1B populations (say R1B in Africa, or R1A in India)?
    2. Same question for EEF?
    3. Relating ANE to R1A I think seems straightforward on little that I know. But why is R1B outside ANE circle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Thanks Maciamo. Of course, the more I understand, the more questions :)
    1. On relating WHG to both R groups (I simply don't know that is why I ask). Is WHG admixture always present for R1A & R1B populations (say R1B in Africa, or R1A in India)?
    2. Same question for EEF?
    3. Relating ANE to R1A I think seems straightforward on little that I know. But why is R1B outside ANE circle?
    Be it in India, Central Asia, Siberia or even Mongolia, there is always WHG and ANE admixture wherever R1a1a and R1b1a (M269 or M73) are found. However that is not true for the African R1b1c (V88), perhaps because it was too diluted on the way, or because R1b people did not acquire WHG until they mixed with the aboriginal Steppe people (R1a).

    You can see by yourself in the admixture above in which populations the blue, pink and beige admixtures are present.

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    But why is not r1b in ANE circle then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    But why is not r1b in ANE circle then?
    I didn't make the circles. That's from Lazaridis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    LeBrok:When I look at recent numbers for admixtures, the ratio of 70% WHG to 30% ANE makes most sense for all IE who expanded into Europe, most likely from Yamna.
    How do you get from Yamnaya can be modeled as 50% Ancient Karelian/50% modern Armenian, and Corded Ware is 75% Yamnaya to this? Unless you think that most of the people speaking Indo-European languages who moved into Europe proper (or at least Northern Europe) were actually Indo-Europeanized Karelians?


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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    But why is not r1b in ANE circle then?
    Take a look at the Basque admixture, they are about as homogenous as a population gets in terms of Y DNA, 85% R1b. If the original R1b entrants to Europe contained any of the beige admixture we would see it there even in some tiny trace, but we don't. The Basques are about 50/50 of the pink and light blue admixture which is why placing them in the Venn diagram between those two groups works so perfectly. Contrary to what Maciamo statead I did not intend for J2 to represent ANE, the term ANE is really just a catch all for all the European DNA we can't attibute to EEF or WHG (or Oetzi-Loschbour/Motala). All of the population admixtures listed there contain the beige admixture on par closely with the amount of J2 Y DNA they posess, in the absence of J2 the existence of R1a contributes a small amout. This is why we can see the beige admixture in Scots and Icelanders who do have R1a vs non in the Basques who have no R1a.

    The question posed was what we believe the genetic make up of the Yamna were, you can see from the mtDNA tables I made that there was a lot of the same mtDNA in the Yamna that existed in the Neolithic cultures of Europe. This is a lot of support for them containing high levels of EEF. Wether it is directly from an eastward expansion of Neolithic farmers, or a Northward expansion of Neolithic farmers from the same origin as the European ones is hard to pinpoint but I would say the latter is more likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I don't think that R1a Corded Ware presents a problem, since I see them as being part of the "ancient Karelian-like" population - N1c seems to have arrived somewhat later. My point is that if we see R1b as an IE phenomenon, how do we explain the somewhat geographic specific diversity of subclades? I think we have to either see the diversity as very recent or see R1b as being in Europe for much longer than we have any evidence for. And I'm not personally a fan of either explanation.

    I'm not sure why this is an issue? Isn't R1a-M458 almost exclusively NE European/N Russian (aka Slavic) except when we see a light distribution in the Balkans from Slavic migration?

    P312 - Celtic/Celtiberian/Gaulish
    U106- Germanic
    U152 - Possibly Italic
    L23/L51 - Illyrian/IE Greek/Italic(?)

    Several papers have suggested both R1b, and R1a both experienced rapid expansion. The oldest branchings of R1b (xL389) are in India and Iran, and never found in the west. These were nomadic pastoralists. R1b need not have expanded in India for it to have been classified as part of PIE, especially if the earliest tribes were not innovators of farming, many lineages would have just died out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Take a look at the Basque admixture, they are about as homogenous as a population gets in terms of Y DNA, 85% R1b. If the original R1b entrants to Europe contained any of the beige admixture we would see it there even in some tiny trace, but we don't. The Basques are about 50/50 of the pink and light blue admixture which is why placing them in the Venn diagram between those two groups works so perfectly. Contrary to what Maciamo statead I did not intend for J2 to represent ANE, the term ANE is really just a catch all for all the European DNA we can't attibute to EEF or WHG (or Oetzi-Loschbour/Motala). All of the population admixtures listed there contain the beige admixture on par closely with the amount of J2 Y DNA they posess, in the absence of J2 the existence of R1a contributes a small amout. This is why we can see the beige admixture in Scots and Icelanders who do have R1a vs non in the Basques who have no R1a.

    The question posed was what we believe the genetic make up of the Yamna were, you can see from the mtDNA tables I made that there was a lot of the same mtDNA in the Yamna that existed in the Neolithic cultures of Europe. This is a lot of support for them containing high levels of EEF. Wether it is directly from an eastward expansion of Neolithic farmers, or a Northward expansion of Neolithic farmers from the same origin as the European ones is hard to pinpoint but I would say the latter is more likely.
    I do follow your logic here (and presumably that of Lazaridis et al), but couldn't it also just be the case for the Basques, for example, that men from surrounding areas were accepted into a basically matrilineal group and R1b rose to these levels just through founder effect and some selective advantage? They can be modeled with some ANE, as well.

    A similar situation must have occurred in my own area, where downstream clades of R1b are over 50%, but if these latest Eurogenes figures are to be believed, the people only carry 8% of ANE.

    If R1b did not carry ANE, what were they in terms of these three populations, and when did they enter Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I do follow your logic here (and presumably that of Lazaridis et al), but couldn't it also just be the case for the Basques, for example, that men from surrounding areas were accepted into a basically matrilineal group and R1b rose to these levels just through founder effect and some selective advantage? They can be modeled with some ANE, as well.

    A similar situation must have occurred in my own area, where downstream clades of R1b are over 50%, but if these latest Eurogenes figures are to be believed, the people only carry 8% of ANE.

    If R1b did not carry ANE, what were they in terms of these three populations, and when did they enter Europe?
    Ed. Upon reflection, this Venn Diagram is getting out a little bit ahead of the facts for an academic paper, unless they had facts, or preliminary facts, to which we don't have access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I'm not sure why this is an issue? Isn't R1a-M458 almost exclusively NE European/N Russian (aka Slavic) except when we see a light distribution in the Balkans from Slavic migration?

    P312 - Celtic/Celtiberian/Gaulish
    U106- Germanic
    U152 - Possibly Italic
    L23/L51 - Illyrian/IE Greek/Italic(?)

    Several papers have suggested both R1b, and R1a both experienced rapid expansion. The oldest branchings of R1b (xL389) are in India and Iran, and never found in the west. These were nomadic pastoralists. R1b need not have expanded in India for it to have been classified as part of PIE, especially if the earliest tribes were not innovators of farming, many lineages would have just died out.
    I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to say here. I'm aware of the apparent links of specific subclades to certain general areas and specific groups of people. My question was how those links came about. Are you saying that the subclades evolved in situ during the Bronze Age? I can't find anything solid about how old these various subclades are, but I doubt they're that recent. So why is DF27 centred in Iberia, for example?

    The distribution of R1a isn't quite as restricted as you seem to think, but it has been focused in Eastern Europe for a long time so, as I said, there's nothing old about its current distribution. It's R1b that puzzles me. Too much geographic specific subclade diversity in an area where it's apparently been for less than 5000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ed. Upon reflection, this Venn Diagram is getting out a little bit ahead of the facts for an academic paper, unless they had facts, or preliminary facts, to which we don't have access.
    I made that Venn diagram myself in MS paint lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I made that Venn diagram myself in MS paint lol.
    Ah, you got me! It's you, then, that's gotten ahead of the facts, yes? I thought I must be entering early senility that I didn't remember it from the paper.

    We should see very shortly what yDna was involved.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    This works I think
    This is what I think. gold ANE, blue WHG and violett Early Neolithic farmer.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is what I think. gold ANE, blue WHG and violett Early Neolithic farmer.
    I think I2 generally has more EEF than I1. Other than that, I think your diagram looks good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I think I2 generally has more EEF than I1. Other than that, I think your diagram looks good.
    There is a reason for this. During mesolithic time there was no I1 it seems, because I1 is pretty young and probably evolved when the WHG people already mixed with the farmer and some ANE guys around Late Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How do you get from Yamnaya can be modeled as 50% Ancient Karelian/50% modern Armenian, and Corded Ware is 75% Yamnaya to this? Unless you think that most of the people speaking Indo-European languages who moved into Europe proper (or at least Northern Europe) were actually Indo-Europeanized Karelians?
    I was only guessing proportions between WHG and ANE. They were not the only ones in the mix of course, unless we are talking about pre Yamna HGs there. When EEF comes in the mix during Yamna period, it probably fluctuated between 40% in the South and West to 10% in North and East.
    I envision the fully fledged IE, or rather European part of them at ratio of 30/45/25 EEF/WGH/ANE respectively. While their cusins Indo/Iranians to the East were probably 10,10,80.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is what I think. gold ANE, blue WHG and violett Early Neolithic farmer.

    Maybe you should test you theory and place people ( friends or collegues) inside these circles.

    I will start you off with myself .........put me in next to I1 as per above as my WHG is double my ANE
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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