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Thread: Estimating the Y-DNA and autosomal admixtures of Yamnaya samples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is what I think. gold ANE, blue WHG and violett Early Neolithic farmer.

    If you actually look at the venn diagram I made you will see that the colors correspond to the admixtures in the lazaridis study, I applaud your effort but you should try to model it after real data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There is a reason for this. During mesolithic time there was no I1 it seems, because I1 is pretty young and probably evolved when the WHG people already mixed with the farmer and some ANE guys around Late Neolithic.
    It seems I1 was not a very succesfull hunter compared to I2. If it hadn't been picked up by EEF, it would probably be extinct, so I1 are EEF.

    I'm not sure the genome that was constructed to represent EEF is 100 % representative.
    I1 is EEF but seems not to be represented by the EEF genome.

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    When and where is the earliest I1 found?
    Up to my knowledge oldest samples in hunters were I2 (Scandinavia) and I also think Hungarian farmer samples were I2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I think I2 generally has more EEF than I1. Other than that, I think your diagram looks good.
    Are you trying to attribute admixtures to modern populations or to the ancient populations before they mixed with one another ? I2 people obviously have EEF now because almost all I2 lineages intermingled with G2a farmers during the Neolithic. But the point of ancient DNA tests is to be able to determine who brought which admixture. And I2 were pure WHG, while G2a were pure EEF, by definition since the WHG admixture corresponds to the Loschbour hunter-gatherer and EEF to the Stuttgart farmer.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is what I think. gold ANE, blue WHG and violett Early Neolithic farmer.
    If you are looking only at ancient admixtures, then the European C1 (not the Japanese one) should be pure WHG. I am pretty sure that R1a people already had more WHG than ANE during the Mesolithic. R1a* might have been relatively pure ANE in the Paleolithic (just after the LGM), but they mixed with WHG when they arrived in eastern Europe. All modern R1a1a populations have WHG, even in India and Siberia.

    As for I1, it was surely pure WHG at first but, like I2, it mixed with G2a farmers and absorbed EEF admixture. I1 would not have had any ANE until the Bronze Age. So in all logic I would place it with I2 and C1 in the blue circle only.

    If you want to represent modern populations, then they are all in the middle, with all three admixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Are you trying to attribute admixtures to modern populations or to the ancient populations before they mixed with one another ? I2 people obviously have EEF now because almost all I2 lineages intermingled with G2a farmers during the Neolithic. But the point of ancient DNA tests is to be able to determine who brought which admixture. And I2 were pure WHG, while G2a were pure EEF, by definition since the WHG admixture corresponds to the Loschbour hunter-gatherer and EEF to the Stuttgart farmer.
    I believe that a Venn diagram is about relationships between different sets of data, not an attempt to show admixture percentages, although the two are obviously connected. I was merely suggesting that, in modern populations, there's a stronger relationship between I2 and EEF than there is between I1 and EEF, because the average I2 person has more EEF than the average I1 person.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If you are looking only at ancient admixtures, then the European C1 (not the Japanese one) should be pure WHG. I am pretty sure that R1a people already had more WHG than ANE during the Mesolithic. R1a* might have been relatively pure ANE in the Paleolithic (just after the LGM), but they mixed with WHG when they arrived in eastern Europe. All modern R1a1a populations have WHG, even in India and Siberia.

    As for I1, it was surely pure WHG at first but, like I2, it mixed with G2a farmers and absorbed EEF admixture. I1 would not have had any ANE until the Bronze Age. So in all logic I would place it with I2 and C1 in the blue circle only.

    If you want to represent modern populations, then they are all in the middle, with all three admixtures.
    IMO you should split I :

    EEF : I1 and I2-CTS595 who beame EEF 8000 years ago, they have no WHG offspring
    I1 expanded much later than 8000 years ago, so either the Hungarian neolithic I1 got extinct or the Hungarian neolithic I1 is ancestral to all present I1
    I2 CTS-595 has never been detected in WHG skelletons, it is ancestral to I2-M26 the main component of Basque and Sardinian

    as for the EEF genome, see http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso...lithic_farmers
    I don't think this genome represents all EEF, there is no link with I1

    as for European C1 , do you mean C1a2-V20 as oposed to Japanese C1a1?
    IMO the La Brana WHG was a relict of Aurignacian, almost pushed out of Europe by Gravettian I-tribes.
    The Hungarian EEF C1a2 came from the Levant, a surviving tribe from Levantine Aurignacian.
    C1a2 is almost 50.000 years old, and La Brana WHG and Hungarian EEF C1a2 split more than 40.000 years ago IMO.
    I would think La Brana WHG got extinct and present day European C1a2-V20 are descendants of Hungarian EEF C1a2

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was only guessing proportions between WHG and ANE. They were not the only ones in the mix of course, unless we are talking about pre Yamna HGs there. When EEF comes in the mix during Yamna period, it probably fluctuated between 40% in the South and West to 10% in North and East.
    I envision the fully fledged IE, or rather European part of them at ratio of 30/45/25 EEF/WGH/ANE respectively. While their cusins Indo/Iranians to the East were probably 10,10,80.
    Nah thats FAR too high ANE. I think both estimates are unlikely but the 80% ANE part is even too extreme. First of all we should stop using EEF for our estimations because it is not " real" component but more 1/5 WHG and 4/5 Near Eastern Farmer. Considering that the mtDNA of Yamnaya were very farmer like. And Yamnaya could be explained as Karelian/Armenian like. I think Proto Indo Europeans were like 30/25/45 WHG/ANE/ENF(Near Eastern farmer) in the West and 15/35/50 WHG/ANE/ENF in the East. When the Western part already arrived in Hungary they catched up additional WHG and the further West and North they went, the higher it became.

    Later the Slavic expansion brought additional WHG to Ukraine and the Balkans.

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    forgot to tell,

    neolithic La Treille were I2-CTS595

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    The first ancient I1 sample was found in an LBK context along with a G2a2b sample.
    See: Szecsenyi-Nagy et al 2014 (Guido Brandt is a co-author)
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...08664.full.pdf

    Of course, we don't yet know, imo, and as Bicicleur pointed out, whether this particular "Hungarian neolithic I1 got extinct [and modern I1 descends from another group that expanded only after being incorporated by Indo-European speaking peoples]* or the Hungarian neolithic I1 is ancestral to all present I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Nah thats FAR too high ANE. I think both estimates are unlikely but the 80% ANE part is even too extreme. First of all we should stop using EEF for our estimations because it is not " real" component but more 1/5 WHG and 4/5 Near Eastern Farmer. Considering that the mtDNA of Yamnaya were very farmer like. And Yamnaya could be explained as Karelian/Armenian like. I think Proto Indo Europeans were like 30/25/45 WHG/ANE/ENF(Near Eastern farmer) in the West and 15/35/50 WHG/ANE/ENF in the East. When the Western part already arrived in Hungary they catched up additional WHG and the further West and North they went, the higher it became.

    Later the Slavic expansion brought additional WHG to Ukraine and the Balkans.
    Well, EEF has the benefit of being an actual ancient sample. It remains to be seen how much correlation there will be between the ENF figure in these most recent Eurogenes runs and an actual ENF genome.

    I have seen a 39% Eurogenes ENF figure being discussed as a "guesstimate" for Yamnaya Indo-Europeans. Since the figure for Armenians is 78% and Yamnaya is supposedly 50% Armenian like, I can see the logic in that, I suppose. How do you arrive at a 45% guesstimate for the western Yamnaya areas?

    Also, given the comment by Nick Patterson recently, do you think there is indeed WHG present in India, for example, to go along with all the R1a?

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    [QUOTE=Angela;447685
    Also, given the comment by Nick Patterson recently, do you think there is indeed WHG present in India, for example, to go along with all the R1a?[/QUOTE]

    re HG R1a in India ?
    are these real anciant R1a clades or is this R1a which was not tested for subclades ?
    there is R1a-Z93 in India too. I would be surprised if they were HG. They arrived much to late to find new virgin hunting grounds in India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Nah thats FAR too high ANE. I think both estimates are unlikely but the 80% ANE part is even too extreme.
    At this moment 20/60/20 whg/ane/enf is likely too for East Yamna, supposed source of Indo-Iranians. Less than 60% ANE can't explain elevated ANE levels in Middle East where Indo-Iranians settled.


    First of all we should stop using EEF for our estimations because it is not " real" component but more 1/5 WHG and 4/5 Near Eastern Farmer.
    Maybe it is not pure admixture, but it is real, from a real person who lived 7k years ago. On other hand ENF doesn't come from a real physical source.


    Considering that the mtDNA of Yamnaya were very farmer like. And Yamnaya could be explained as Karelian/Armenian like. I think Proto Indo Europeans were like 30/25/45 WHG/ANE/ENF(Near Eastern farmer)
    I think it is still within a viable guess.
    in the West and 15/35/50 WHG/ANE/ENF in the East.
    I don't think they were much of farmers farther East. They were herders. Besides if they took farming from Cucuteni they should have gotten EEF as last and less, being farthest away. Therefore I don't see them having more ENF than 20%. When they have arrived to Middle East they didn't need to bring ENF there. It was already there in huge proportion.

    When the Western part already arrived in Hungary they catched up additional WHG
    Do you mean they caught more WHG from Neolithic Hungarian farmers? You know they came from part of Europe where WHG is still dominant today.

    Later the Slavic expansion brought additional WHG to Ukraine and the Balkans.
    Right. Slavs came from place where used to be West part of Yamna. It might be proof how much WHG was there to start with. West Ukrainians and Belorussians might be a good proxy for West Yamna.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It seems I1 was not a very succesfull hunter compared to I2. If it hadn't been picked up by EEF, it would probably be extinct, so I1 are EEF.

    I'm not sure the genome that was constructed to represent EEF is 100 % representative.
    I1 is EEF but seems not to be represented by the EEF genome.
    If I2 hadn't learned farming from EEF, it would have gone extinct. In fact, it pretty much did in Sweden.

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    It is impossible that I1 expanded with indo european farmers, look at the y dna of Finland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    It is impossible that I1 expanded with indo european farmers, look at the y dna of Finland.
    I think I1 in Finland is IEan one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I think I1 in Finland is IEan one.
    I1 is more diverse in Finland than anywhere else

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    It is impossible that I1 expanded with indo european farmers, look at the y dna of Finland.
    Did anyone say that the Y haplogroup I1 didn't begin to expand until the European Bronze Age? Between the Mesolithic and the Bronze Age, there's a small period of time called the Neolithic, when EEF farmers entered Europe and some Mesolithic groups managed to learn farming from them. Whether or not us current I1 haplogroup folks are descended from that earliest I1 found in Hungary, Maciamo has suggested that at some point I1 adopted farming and therefore greatly increased in numbers. And, for whatever reason, I1 then moved north into Scandinavia, largely displacing the I2 hunters that had previously dominated the area. We don't have enough data yet to know exactly when I1 expanded in Scandinavia or the Baltic but the I1 adoption of agriculture that made the expansion possible probably happened during the Neolithic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Did anyone say that the Y haplogroup I1 didn't begin to expand until the European Bronze Age? Between the Mesolithic and the Bronze Age, there's a small period of time called the Neolithic, when EEF farmers entered Europe and some Mesolithic groups managed to learn farming from them. Whether or not us current I haplogroup folks are descended from that earliest I1 type found in Hungary, Maciamo has suggested that at some point I1 adopted farming and therefore greatly increased in numbers. And, for whatever reason, I1 then moved north into Scandinavia, largely displacing the I2 hunters that had previously dominated the area. We don't have enough data yet to know exactly when I1 expanded in Scandinavia or the Balkans but the I1 adoption of agriculture that made the expansion possible probably happened during the Neolithic.
    That theory is more full if holes than swiss cheese. The only record of farmers moving in to Scandinavia is Funnelbeaker who were EEF autosomally, EEF admixture is completely absent in Finns with 40% I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    That theory is more full if holes than swiss cheese. The only record of farmers moving in to Scandinavia is Funnelbeaker who were EEF autosomally, EEF admixture is completely absent in Finns with 40% I1.
    So, what's your explanation for why I1 folk went from apparently not existing in Scandinavia to greatly outnumbering the I2 folk who had previously dominated the area? Any time a haplogroup has increased dramatically in numbers, agriculture has been part of it, since that permits larger families than the hunting and gathering lifestyle does. There are still a lot of gaps in our knowledge of exactly how the modern population of Scandinavia was created, and even more with respect to the Baltic, but can you show me any evidence of a large I1 population that was pre-agriculture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I1 is more diverse in Finland than anywhere else
    Where did you get that idea? Finnish I1 is dominated by I1 L22>L287, which is a young branch with a TMRCA of only 2000 years or so. The center of diversity of I1 is certainly south of Finland. The outlier branches (DF29-) are not present in Finland, but are rather found in Germany, Austria, France, Britain, the Czech Republic...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I1 is more diverse in Finland than anywhere else
    Is that so.
    That would be interesting.
    Do you have a source for that info?

    2700 till 600 BC was a warm climate period, cattle farming was possible in southern Finland, corded ware came till southern Finland
    600 BC climate became colder, farmers left southern Finland and Saami and Fennic hunters replaced them
    German tribes,who were farmers started to move south

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    If I2 hadn't learned farming from EEF, it would have gone extinct. In fact, it pretty much did in Sweden.
    I1 and I2-CTS595 adopted farming 8000 years ago, together with EEF

    I2a2 and I2a1b adopted farming much later, together with IE expansion

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Where did you get that idea? Finnish I1 is dominated by I1 L22>L287, which is a young branch with a TMRCA of only 2000 years or so. The center of diversity of I1 is certainly south of Finland. The outlier branches (DF29-) are not present in Finland, but are rather found in Germany, Austria, France, Britain, the Czech Republic...
    Sparkey, if I recall well, you mentioned once I1 was most diverse in southern Denmark.
    Is that correct? Do you have a source for that?

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    First of all I1 & I2 did not adopt farming, hunter gather societies lived side by side with farmers as late as 3000 B.C. do I need to post that study too?

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-artic...d-side-by-side

    "It is commonly assumed that the European hunter-gatherers disappeared soon after the arrival of farmers”, said Dr Ruth Bollongino, lead author of the study. “But our study shows that the descendants of the first European humans maintained their hunter-gatherer way of life, and lived in parallel with the immigrant farmers, for at least 2,000 years. The hunter-gathering way of life only died out in Central Europe around 5,000 years ago, much later than previously thought." - See more at: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-artic....79K5Dnva.dpuf

    That would mean Hunter Gatherers ceased to exist at the same time the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultures arose in Europe.


    Here is the source for the diversity of I1 in Finland. 9/12 subclades listed here are present in Finland. You can see it is very diverse in Finland.

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...R_Branches.pdf


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