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Thread: I2+R1a+R1b Contact Area = PIE Urheimat

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    I2+R1a+R1b Contact Area = PIE Urheimat

    aleximreh.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/i2r1ar1b-contact-area-pie-urheimat
    The Contact Area
    is where I2/Cucuteni people met first with R1a than with R1b.

    I quote from the Eupedia page reffering to R1b, to the origin of ''indo-europeans'':
    ''It is not yet entirely clear when R1b crossed over from eastern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. This might have happened with the appearance of the Dnieper-Donets culture / c. 5100-4300 BCE, the first truly Neolithic society in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. However, many elements indicate a continuity in the Dnieper-Donets culture with the previous Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and at the same time an influence from the Balkans and Carpathians, with regular imports of pottery and copper objects. It is therefore more likely that Dnieper-Donets marked the transition of indigenous R1a and/or I2a1b people to early agriculture, perhaps with an influx of Near Eastern farmers from 'Old Europe'. Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Dnieper-Donets culture showed clear similarities with those of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the Carpathians (haplogroups H, T and U3).
    The first clearly Proto-Indo-European culture was Sredny Stog (4600-3900 BCE) <also in the Dnieper-Don area, just next to the Cucuteni area>... There is evidence of population blending from the variety of skull shapes. Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols.
    The Maykop culture, the R1b link to the steppe -archeology also shows a clear diffusion of bronze working and kurgan-type burials from the Maykop culture to the Pontic Steppe, where the Yamma culture developed soon afterwards (from 3500 BCE)...The Yamna period (3500-2500 BCE) is the most important one in the creation of Indo-European culture and society.
    Middle Eastern R1b people had been living and blending to some extent with the local R1a foragers and herders <and with I2 farmers/salt&pottery traders from Cucuteni> for over a millennium, perhaps even two or three. The close cultural contact and interactions between ,<I2>, R1a and R1b people all over the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, resulted in the creation of a common vernacular, a new lingua franca, which linguists have called Proto-Indo-European (PIE). It is pointless to try to assign another region of origin to the PIE language.'' end of quote, I have inserted the <I2> parts.

    Maybe when we talk about blending peoples, technologies & cultures in this Contact Area to produce the PIE people and culture, we should consider that in this blending I2 Cucuteni culture/people had the following contributions:
    1] farming came to the PIE area from Cucuteni people/culture
    2] first metal products, gold and copper came from I2/Cucuteni imports
    3] pottery came from Cucuteni people which worked with fire at such high temperatures that today it is difficult to reproduce the way they used to burn their houses. Look to the maps refering to the Burning House Horizon!! The Burning House Horizon covers all the PIE homeland!!
    4] and very important SALT came from Moldovia, from the Carpathian mountains. Salt was important to people, to herding AND to food conservation. Food conservation helped people to travel on longer distances and for sure contributed to the increase of herds and populations. First salt went down the rivers from the mountains, there are some very nice studies regarding the relation between first neolithic sites and salt mines. Then salt was carried further with wagons and cattle. Cucuteni people for a long time made trade with the ''kurgan'' people and mixed with them, Cucuteni culture and farming spread east, there is evidence that very large quantities of salt were transported east to the Pontic steppes from the Carpathians.
    Life is not possible without salt, salt mines were essential for first Thracian large settlements also, see the rich Varna Culture.
    5] Also consider that the area between Cucuteni and Vinca, ie Transilvania, was later
    5.1]the turntable from where Urn culture spread to W Europe,
    5.2]the area, turntable from where proto-celts conquered all W Europe and also
    5.3] maybe the area from where indo-europeans invaded for the first time Greece - see the relation between Wietenberg culture / bronze objects / technology and Micenian swords / bronze technoogy. Wietenberg culture used tin from Bohemia and probably preceded Unetice and western bronze technology.

    6] we could consider that the lower Danube next to the Cucuteni area was the entrance of Indo-Europeans in Europe.
    7] Coming back to the way people from Cucuteni used fire at high temperatures, when they made pottery or when they burned the houses. These high temperatures are essential for copper technology - over 1100 degrees Celsius. The Cucuteni people were the first to use cremation, after Cucuteni people, the Wietenberg culture (<2000BC) were the predecessors of Urn Culture, the first culture to use cremation in Transylvania. From Transylvania, Urn culture spread W, later Dacians used also cremation.
    There seem to be a continuity in using a lot the fire: fine pottery / Cucuteni, the best bronze technology in their time / Wietenberg culture, Iron / the Dacians and all of them cremation of the dead.
    So all in all when we talk about blending of haplogroups, technologies and cultures to produce the proto indo europeans we should not forget the I2 haplogroup, the HP that dominated Europe for 6.000 years after the last Ice Age, the Continuity theory of Alinei, the first human civilizations of the world ie Old Europe.
    Cucuteni was there right in the eye of the storm, part of the Contact Area. Populations in Cucuteni and Vinca area were, were so strong that R1b and R1a were not able to displace them. R1b spread to W Europe which was less populated, easier to be conquered, while R1a spread to N& Central Europe for the same reason. On their way up the Danube, the new haplos avoided the W of former Yugoslavia where today I2 has highest percentages.
    Gimbutas said that kurgan people destroyed Old Europe. But for a long time, Cucuteni culture co-existed with ''kurgan'' people, traded with them, even expanded to E. When Cucuteni culture ''vanished'' the blending was over. A new mixtures took the place of the Old Europeans, stronger populations with better technology and more ''competitive'' social behaviour. Stronger mixtures that had everything, just replaced not destroyed the older Cucuteni & Vinca cultures, maybe better adapted also to climate changes. The new mixture had all the new technologies, farming, herding, horses/chariots, metallurgy and also the more competitive social organization - they were fierce warriors but in the same time they were not using slavery, they had elites but no crushing state/aristocracy.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    Last edited by AlexImreh; 08-01-15 at 22:29.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Burned_House_Horizon_Map.jpghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_house_horizon

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    http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...ed_in_Ukraine/
    http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/...ine-02223.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6IgYxfTYTg
    A team of archaeologists led by Dr Mykhailo Videiko of the Kyiv Institute of Archaeology has discovered the remains of a 6,000-year-old temple at a Trypillian culture village near modern-day Nebelivka, Ukraine. The culture is characterized by advanced agriculture, developed metallurgy, pottery-making, sophisticated architecture and social organization, including the first proto-cities on European soil. The remains of one of the largest burnt out Trypillian buildings ever found have been uncovered during recent excavations at the Trypillian ‘mega-site’ of Nebelivka in Kirovograd region, Ukraine, and interpreted as a massive temple, dating from 4000 BC.“The temple was a two-story building made of wood and clay surrounded by a galleried courtyard, five rooms were on the first floor and raised family altars made of clay were on the ground floor,” said Dr Videiko, who is a co-author of the paper published in the Journal of Neolithic Archaeology.
    This building, covering an area of 600m2, must rank as one of the largest structures ever built in prehistoric Europe. http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php/jna/article/view/110

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    Hello, Alex.
    I share with you the theorie that the contact between old european and "people from the steppes" could be the birth of a PIE Urheimat.
    In my eyes the Cucuteni Trypillian Culture and east European/Balkan Neolithic cultures played a key role in the the creation or develepment of a PIE "Culture".
    R1a or maybe R1b people of the steppes had long time before the so called "Indo European" Kurgan movement contacts with the neolithic Balkan Folks. The pre Cultures of the so called "Kurgans" were all "neolithic" farmes like the Bug-Dniester and Samara culture this cultures which were heavy influenced by the starcevo culture/vinca complex from the Balkan. This neolithic Steppe cultures evolved later into some kind of semi farmer/nomadic pastoralist. Iam sure that this transformation could be explained with the development of the wheel and the vehicle The oldest evidence of a wheeled vehicle were found on the teretory Cucuteni Trypillian Culture and Funnelbeaker Culture.

    Cucuten Trypillian Vehicle (3950-3650bc)

    Funnelbeaker Culture Bronocice pot(3635-3370 BC)


    This evidence is a strong argument that the cucuteni Trypillian Culture played a key part in the spread of the PIE culture around the globus. In my eyes all PIE Cultures were a part of the culturural neolithic Balkan Complex. This cultures shares the same religios beliefs/symbols (svastika/jing jang/triangle), maybe the same language and the same technological pogress(metallurgy/vehicle). One of this Kind of cultures were the Afanasevo culture (3500bc) which was an enolithic and not a bronze age culture. This culture inhabited the area around siberia, kazhastan, north china and altai.

    [IMG]http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/BC3500_AndronovoAfanasevo_culture.gif[/IMG]

    The Afanasevo culture is a ideal example for the spread of the balkan/east european neolithic culture deep into the stepp. This happend before the so called great Indo European Movent in the Bronze Age.

    I found a very interesting link which show how the Afanasevo culture influenced the neolthic chinese culture:

    The diffusion of the Black Sea fertility symbols towards China :
    It seems, by the comparison of the pottery patterns, that the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in Central Europe (ca 5000-3500 bc) is to be disseminated to the east during the 4
    the millennium bc. and has provided the Lajja Gauri attitude design and the marker Swastika to the neolithic cultures of Western China.


    http://de.scribd.com/doc/201868951/Phallic-Cult-in-the-Chinese-Bronze-Age-Shang-and-Zhou-dynasties <-- watch the similarities between the pottery art.

    This explained how the traditional chinese Ying-Yang and the Swastika came into this region:



    The Cucuteni whole spiral pattern figures the sun course around the earth as the swastika. In detail, some vases seem to compose it of coiled snakes.

    Cucuteni. Mid. 5th mill.bc. Majiayao. Mid. 3rd mill. bc. Cucuteni. 4500-4100 bc. Cucuteni. Yangshao. 3000 bc. Yangshao.3rd mill.bc.
    The analogy between both arts of pottery is confirmed by numerous markers as the swastika, thedesign of the anthropomorphic figures composed of two triangles


    http://de.scribd.com/doc/201868951/Phallic-Cult-in-the-Chinese-Bronze-Age-Shang-and-Zhou-dynasties








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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexImreh View Post
    The Contact Area is where I2/Cucuteni people met first with R1a than with R1b.
    l
    I2 so far was mostly found in hunter gatherer communities in Europe. However, I2 should be found in the Cucuteni mix, as adopted by farmers from HGs (possibly with other HG hg C6), but theoretically shouldn't be a dominant one. Dominant haplogroups of Cucuteni should be the Neolithic Farmer's G, E and J. I hope soon someone will publish the Cucuteni genomes to learn the truth.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srbo View Post
    Hello, Alex.
    I share with you the theorie that the contact between old european and "people from the steppes" could be the birth of a PIE Urheimat.
    In my eyes the Cucuteni Trypillian Culture and east European/Balkan Neolithic cultures played a key role in the the creation or develepment of a PIE "Culture".
    R1a or maybe R1b people of the steppes had long time before the so called "Indo European" Kurgan movement contacts with the neolithic Balkan Folks. The pre Cultures of the so called "Kurgans" were all "neolithic" farmes like the Bug-Dniester and Samara culture this cultures which were heavy influenced by the starcevo culture/vinca complex from the Balkan. This neolithic Steppe cultures evolved later into some kind of semi farmer/nomadic pastoralist. Iam sure that this transformation could be explained with the development of the wheel and the vehicle The oldest evidence of a wheeled vehicle were found on the teretory Cucuteni Trypillian Culture and Funnelbeaker Culture.

    Cucuten Trypillian Vehicle (3950-3650bc)





    If the date is correct this could be the oldest, indeed. Can you cite archeological paper confirming it?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Going back to the thread title. I believe the contact between I2 and R1a happened when R1a people pushed West right after the Ice Age. The WHG of I2 kind met ANE of R1a kind, somewhere in Western Russia and Ukraine. That is why 5 thousand years later in Yamna, R1a folks were already a mixture of WHG and ANE, plus EEF from Cucuteni farmers. Cucuteni also had WHG admixture but probably in not higher proportion than 20%, from mixing with I2 guys during Neolithic.

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    Why do I say that I2 was dominant for Cucuteni just as it was dominant for Vinca?
    I believe in this scenario - after last Ice Age all Europe was re-colonised with I2 and I1 from the pockets of resistence located in the Danube/Carpathian Basin. Between 10.000bc until the arrival of neolithic farmers I2 was dominant in all Europe. The lower Danube basin, the rich shores of the sweet water Big Lake that became the Black Sea after 5600bc, offering the best living conditions, were for many thousands of years the most populated areas of Europe, that is why R1a became later dominant in NE of Europe, and R1b became dominant in W Europe but neither of them was not able to become dominant in Old Europe.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml > The eastern I2a1b (M423) is probably linked to the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE), which was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age.
    In the case of present day Romania I like to believe:
    1]that after the arrival of J2+E1+G farmers I2/1 was still around 70%, while
    E&J were under 15% each.
    2]after 4000bc E&J, E&J a went up a little up to present day percentages ie 15% each
    3]while R1b & R1a went up between 4000bc and 0ad from 0% to around 10% approx each
    4]than the percentages changed slowly a little between 0ad and 2000ad to present day percentages.
    Even today in Romania I1/2 is dominant=33% ie double compared with R1b or R1a, I2+I1 still a little bigger than R1b+R1a=30% but R1b&R1a increased significantly in the last 2000years, with Roman conquest, german colonisation in Transylvania and most of all with Slav migrations after 600ad. (and also J/E increased in the last 2000years with Greek colonies, Bizant influence,..)
    So I would say that Romanian people, with a Latin Language, as indo-european as possible, a Language that could be the KEY for all PIE languages, first absorbed the farmers from Middle East than absorbed the kurgan people than were able to resist huns, mongols, tatars and turks, by living without rich cities, no targets for the migrants and by retreating in the mountains again and again.
    Attachment 7004


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexImreh View Post
    Why do I say that I2 was dominant for Cucuteni just as it was dominant for Vinca?
    I believe in this scenario - after last Ice Age all Europe was re-colonised with I2 and I1 from the pockets of resistence located in the Danube/Carpathian Basin. Between 10.000bc until the arrival of neolithic farmers I2 was dominant in all Europe. The lower Danube basin, the rich shores of the sweet water Big Lake that became the Black Sea after 5600bc, offering the best living conditions, were for many thousands of years the most populated areas of Europe, that is why R1a became later dominant in NE of Europe, and R1b became dominant in W Europe but neither of them was not able to become dominant in Old Europe.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml > The eastern I2a1b (M423) is probably linked to the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE), which was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age.
    In the case of present day Romania I like to believe:
    1]that after the arrival of J2+E1+G farmers I2/1 was still around 70%, while
    E&J were under 15% each.
    2]after 4000bc E&J, E&J a went up a little up to present day percentages ie 15% each
    3]while R1b & R1a went up between 4000bc and 0ad from 0% to around 10% approx each
    4]than the percentages changed slowly a little between 0ad and 2000ad to present day percentages.
    Even today in Romania I1/2 is dominant=33% ie double compared with R1b or R1a, I2+I1 still a little bigger than R1b+R1a=30% but R1b&R1a increased significantly in the last 2000years, with Roman conquest, german colonisation in Transylvania and most of all with Slav migrations after 600ad. (and also J/E increased in the last 2000years with Greek colonies, Bizant influence,..)
    So I would say that Romanian people, with a Latin Language, as indo-european as possible, a Language that could be the KEY for all PIE languages, first absorbed the farmers from Middle East than absorbed the kurgan people than were able to resist huns, mongols, tatars and turks, by living without rich cities, no targets for the migrants and by retreating in the mountains again and again.
    Attachment 7004

    Did someone test Vinca DNA?


    Remember, even if Vinca would turn I2, the paternal Y chromosome, it is only 2% of DNA. From Neolithic farmers who lived in Hungary we gather, that at 80% level they were different than WHG folks, the I2 and C6 hunter gatherers who dominated Paleolithic Europe. Even if I2 paternal line persisted, the Neolithic farmers were genetically not the same people. They were much different than I2 hunter gatherers.

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    Now regarding the samples, the testings consider this. Let's take for example 3-4 century ad Transilvania - we see Gepid settlements at the border, and Goths settlements in the center, but of course we talk only about settlements in fertile valleys, the first target of any invasion. 100 years later Goths are out, the Gepids take the fertile valleys.
    This happened on and on, cumans, avars, slavs, magyars, all came wave after wave, taking the same targets, pushing one another out. During this time, I would say that there was a large population living outside the main fertile lands, they were there all along, more numerous than the invaders who came in, went out, or were absorbed. When the huns, the goths, and so on came to present day Romania, they had no big cities to plunder here, they had not much ''to destroy'' but in the same time they needed the local populations to produce for them food. They wiped out rich cities outside their temporary ''home areas'' but they cooperated with local rural people in areas they used as turntable for the invasions. So they used the area as a base to go from here to plunder the rich cities south of the Danube, or later the Magyars the same, they used Pannonia as a base to plunder western europe. Thus we have dominant haplogroups occupying only some main fertile valleys, and in those valleys yes there is much displacements with each wave.
    When we take samples we obviously take samples from the fertile area where we have the more rich settlements, and if Gepids or Goths or Cumans or Huns or Magyars have different dna we could say that every 2-300 years with each wave, population in an area changed a lot, genetically. I talked with a local archeologist yesterday he says that there are no genetical studies regarding the Wietenberg culture for example, actually they are working on that, I hope to have the results soon to share the results with you here. Anyhow there will be a small number of samples to cover a large area for a long time, obviously the samples will not cover many settlements or many graves in a settlementTrans_gepids&goths.GIFTrans_gepids.GIFTrans_hungarian_11th.GIF.
    Sorry I knew little about genetic testing, but logically I guess that there still is a statistical problem. If somebody who knows nothing about the whole picture go today in certain cities in Europe (Nice, parts of London, and so on) that person could perceive that Europe is a muslim area, I hear that 4 out of 5 children in the public schools of London ... are not quite British ...

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    IMO, I2 doesn't have much to do with the PIE homeland. It should be R1a, R1b, G2a3b1, J2b2 and maybe T1a1a (and possibly a very little bit of J2a and I2a but they would be under 1% of the lineages).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    IMO, I2 doesn't have much to do with the PIE homeland. It should be R1a, R1b, G2a3b1, J2b2 and maybe T1a1a (and possibly a very little bit of J2a and I2a but they would be under 1% of the lineages).
    It would be true when you place the homeland deep into the steppe. But me and alex are saying that the PIE Homeland could be the "neolithic Balkan" horizont.

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    I take the opportunity here to show you a nice study about salt. Archeolgy, metalurgy, lingvistics, the study of signs, the study if climatic changes and epidemologic disasters, all can contribute of course to our discussions, salt also has to do with the moving of people, with the trajectory of haplogroups in thousands of years.
    http://ethnosalro.uaic.ro/ The provision of salt was a major logistical problem for the largest Cucuteni-Trypillian settlements. As they came to rely upon cereal foods over salty meat and fish, Neolithic cultures had to incorporate supplementary sources of salt into their diet. Similarly, domestic cattle need to be provided with extra sources of salt beyond their normal diet or their milk production is reduced. Cucuteni-Trypillian mega-sites, with a population of likely thousands of people and animals, are estimated to have required between 36,000 and 100,000 kg of salt per year. This was not available locally, and so had to be moved in bulk from distant sources, probably from the Carpathian Mountains.
    Wiki about Cucuteni Culture - the way I read things, the Contact area between I2 and R1a+R1b was in the pontic steppes between the Prut/Dnienster river up to the Don/Volga area.
    <<1]Prut-Siret homeland > 2]4800-4000bc extend over Dniester-Bug basins > 3]4000-3500bc extend to Eastern Transylvania and to the Dnieper basin >
    4]3500-3000bc extend to N Ukraine/Kiev and E to Don&Volga + transformation into a patriarchal structure + different forms of ritual burial were developed>>
    Thus the last phase of the Cucuteni culture is already a mixture, the transformation into a patriarchal structure and the different forms of burial show the mixture between the farmers and the kurgan people. Over 1000years the farmers and the kurgan people traded, mixed, the last 500 year period there is a mixed population with a culture still dominated by the older ways, so there was not a violent and sudden end for the Cucuteni culture, there was a transformation that lasted many hundreds of years.
    The roots of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture can be found in the Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Vinča cultures of the 6th to 5th millennia, with additional influence from the Bug-Dniester culture (6500-5000 BC). During the early period of its existence (in the 5th millennium BC), the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was also influenced by the Linear Pottery culture from the north, and by the Boian-Giulesti culture from the south. Through colonization and acculturation from these other cultures, the formative Pre-Cucuteni/Trypillia A culture was established. Over the course of the fifth millennium, the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture expanded from its 'homeland' in the Prut-Siret region along the eastern foothills of the Carpathian Mountains into the basins and plains of the Dnieper and Southern Bug rivers of central Ukraine.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What is needed to form persuasive theories about the peopling of Europe is not conjecture but fact. We are in possession of some of those facts, but as more become available, as with the upcoming papers on Yamnaya and Corded Ware, we should have more clarity. Within a few weeks we won't have to rely on conjecture as to what yDna lineages were generally present in the Yamnaya horizon. Even were I2a present however, that would be only one part of the puzzle.

    As LeBrok pointed out above, the "ethnicity" of any one group of people at a specific point in time is determined by their autosomal signature, not their yDna. The two may, in some circumstances, correlate, but in others they do not. We already have evidence of I2a and I1 bearers who are EEF autosomally, . So, I fail to see the significance of some samples in this area turning out to carry I2a. In the cases I mentioned, the pre-Neolithic European lineages were absorbed by the farmers, and that is the reason that they expanded so rapidly.

    We have a modern example in African-Americans in the U.S. There are African-Americans who are 90% and more SSA who carry Rib L21 because they descend from a British settler in the New World. It doesn't make them "Celtic". Another famous example, Dr. Louis Gates, carries both European mtDna and European yDna. It doesn't stop him from being predominantly SSA (and identifying as such).

    YDna is helpful in tracking migration movements, but it is very unreliable as to the total "genetic" signature. The autosomes also need to be analyzed.

    Questions regarding the location and genetic make-up of the "Indo-Europeans" are a separate issue. I don't think that there is any doubt that the people of the Yamna horizon who moved into Europe proper adopted some of the signature elements of their culture from surrounding areas. As just one example, it's pretty clear from Anthony's work that the western steppe peoples learned agriculture and animal domestication and herding from the Neolithic cultures of "Old Europe" to their west. In contrast, the steppe cultures to the east didn't adopt these things until significantly later. There may even have been gene flow from "Old Europe" onto the steppe. It's not clear to me exactly what is meant when Lazardis says Yamna was half "Armenian like".

    Still, this is all very different from saying that the "Indo-Europeans" are equivalent to the people of Cucuteni Tripolite.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by srbo View Post
    It would be true when you place the homeland deep into the steppe. But me and alex are saying that the PIE Homeland could be the "neolithic Balkan" horizont.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexImreh View Post
    The roots of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture can be found in the Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Vinča cultures of the 6th to 5th millennia, with additional influence from the Bug-Dniester culture (6500-5000 BC). During the early period of its existence (in the 5th millennium BC), the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was also influenced by the Linear Pottery culture from the north, and by the Boian-Giulesti culture from the south.

    Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Linear Pottery culture mostly were G2a
    Neolithic Balkans had 70-80% G2a
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...08664.full.pdf
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexImreh View Post
    I take the opportunity here to show you a nice study about salt. Archeolgy, metalurgy, lingvistics, the study of signs, the study if climatic changes and epidemologic disasters, all can contribute of course to our discussions, salt also has to do with the moving of people, with the trajectory of haplogroups in thousands of years.
    http://ethnosalro.uaic.ro/ The provision of salt was a major logistical problem for the largest Cucuteni-Trypillian settlements. As they came to rely upon cereal foods over salty meat and fish, Neolithic cultures had to incorporate supplementary sources of salt into their diet. Similarly, domestic cattle need to be provided with extra sources of salt beyond their normal diet or their milk production is reduced. Cucuteni-Trypillian mega-sites, with a population of likely thousands of people and animals, are estimated to have required between 36,000 and 100,000 kg of salt per year. This was not available locally, and so had to be moved in bulk from distant sources, probably from the Carpathian Mountains.
    ........................


    Cucuteni culture folk could have acquired all the sea salt they needed from the Black Sea, and sea salt is suitable for use by humans and animals, whereas rock salt that has been dug out of the ground often requires considerable processing. People who have a ready supply of sea salt are not going to pay more for imported rock sale that's probably less suitable for their needs. And transportation costs were very high in those days.

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    http://ethnosalro.uaic.ro/about/results/
    http://ethnosalro.uaic.ro/download/E...1-2014_ENG.pdf
    https://www.academia.edu/1307853/Arc...ronic_approach
    http://www.iianthropology.org/saltprehieurasia.html If they could take salt out of the sea water than WHY did they had this facility of production a few dozen km from the sea, inland, producind 500tons of salt for all Thrace - salt production continued at the same place in the Chalcolithic (5th millennium BC) as well, in the time of the spectacular Varna Chalcolithic cemetery including. The continuing archaeological excavations will soon define Provadia-Solnitsata as one of the most interesting archaeological sites in Bulgaria.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture The earliest known salt works in the world is at Poiana Slatinei, near the village of Lunca in Romania. It was first used in the early Neolithic, around 6050 BCE, by the Starčevo culture, and later by the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in the Pre-Cucuteni period.[35] Evidence from this and other sites indicates that the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture extracted salt from salt-laden spring-water through the process of briquetage. Cucuteni-Trypillian mega-sites, with a population of likely thousands of people and animals, are estimated to have required between 36,000 and 100,000 kg of salt per year. This was not available locally, and so had to be moved in bulk from distant sources on the western Black Sea coast and in the Carpathian Mountains, probably by river.[37]
    Maybe Cucuteni people in the Pontic plains used the salt from the Carphatians because it was easier to transport it DOWN the rivers and not up the rivers from the sea.
    Last edited by AlexImreh; 10-01-15 at 12:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Linear Pottery culture mostly were G2a
    Neolithic Balkans had 70-80% G2a
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...08664.full.pdf
    Damn i wrote a big text an all is missing, because of the log in system.

    Whatever.

    Most of these samples are nearly and outside of the balkans. Iam interested in the mesolithic Sites of Lepenski Vir/Vinca Culture and the Cucuteni Trypillian site. This both cultures plays the key part in the diffusion of a PIE cultures all around the globus.

    Especially the Lepenski Vir/Vinca Site is interesting, because it shows a cultural interaction and mixing between near eastern people and the mesolithic inhabitants of this area. You can see this interaction in the Kind of Art. The Vinca cultures shows similarities with the antromorph art of the mesolithic Lepenski Vir Culture and the Cucuteni Trypillian culture show similitarities with the Art of the mesolithic Mezine Culture in Ukraine. All of this cultures shares the belief in the "trinity".

    Mezine Culture Art:



    - The Mezine and Lepenski Vir culture are part of the Epigravettian Horizon.

    Religios symbols or beliefs of these mesolithic cultures were taken over when this cultures transformed into neolithic ones.

    The Swastika Symbol, the Vinca Symbols and the belief into the trinity (not christian one) were a deep part of these mesolithic and later of the neotlihic cultures which inhabited this area.

    Lepenski Vir and the triangle:
    https://www.google.de/search?q=lepen...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

    The triangle and the number 3 as a religious symbol in the kind of art of the vinca culture:

    http://s14.directupload.net/images/131027/jkcfvtsu.jpg

    Picture anylisis by me. Iam not a pro.

    Iam sure that the antromorph style of the Vinca Culture didn't want to copy the any animals. It seems that the Kind of Art was centered around the triangle and Number 3. The creator of this figurines and mask wanted to create a form which was born in the belief of some trinity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Linear Pottery culture mostly were G2a
    Neolithic Balkans had 70-80% G2a
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...08664.full.pdf

    Damn i wrote a big text an all is missing, because of the log in system.


    Whatever.


    Most of these samples were found nearly outside of the balkans. Iam interested in the mesolithic Sites of Lepenski Vir/Vinca Culture and the Cucuteni Trypillian site. This both cultures plays the key part in the diffusion of a PIE cultures all around the globus.


    Especially the Lepenski Vir/Vinca Site is interesting, because it shows a cultural interaction and mixing between near eastern people and the mesolithic inhabitants of this area. You can see this interaction in the Kind of Art. The Vinca cultures shows similarities with the antromorph art of the mesolithic Lepenski Vir Culture and the Cucuteni Trypillian culture show similitarities with the Art of the mesolithic Mezine Culture in Ukraine. All of this cultures shares the belief in the "trinity".


    Mezine Culture Art:





    - The Mezine and Lepenski Vir culture are part of the Epigravettian Horizon.


    Religios symbols or beliefs of these mesolithic cultures were taken over when this cultures transformed into neolithic ones.


    The Swastika Symbol, the Vinca Symbols and the belief into the trinity (not christian one) were a deep part of these mesolithic and later of the neotlihic cultures which inhabited this area.


    Lepenski Vir and the triangle:
    https://www.google.de/search?q=lepen...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


    The triangle and the number 3 as a religious symbol in the kind of art of the vinca culture:




    Picture anylisis by me. Iam not a pro.


    Iam sure that the antromorph style of the Vinca Culture didn't want to copy the any animals. It seems that the Kind of Art was centered around the triangle and Number 3. The creator of this figurines and mask wanted to create a form which was born in the belief of some kind of trinity.

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    About the Vinca simbols:

    The Vinca symbols orginate from the gravettian symbols.



    Upper Paleolithic writing recovered from Magdalenian cave sites (top) compared to characters in three early written languages: (b) Indus valley signs, (c) Greek and (d) Runic. Settegast (p. 28) after Forbes and Crowder, 1979. - See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_....9228REdY.dpuf

    This is also a proof that the mesolithic culture of the balkane influenced the neoilthic ones.

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    Thank you Angela I am trying to learn, and in the meantime I play with ideas .. Nobody said here that the "Indo-Europeans" are equivalent to the people of Cucuteni Tripolite. It is however, logically hard for me to understand, why should G matter more than I2 in the making of the indo-europeans, when present day G is so low compared to present day I2, in all indo-european populations. My logic is bound with the following connections:
    1] I like to believe, accordingly to the Alinei continuity theory, that there was a strong continuity over the last 8000 years, that populations changed slowly in all this time, that populations did not disapeared over and over again.
    2] Each migration meant a relatively small number of people coming to an area where they found much larger populations, the newcomers maybe had more influence at certain times because they were more advanced technologically or more potent military, but than in most cases the migrants were largely absorbed by the main substratum; we can see that situation in Pannonia, present day Hungary - where after many big empires built by very different populations, we still have a present day haplo-mixture very similar with Latin Romania, with 'Slav' Serbia, and 'German' Austria, with practically little Y-DNA left after the military dominance of Huns, Mongols, Avars, Sarmatians, Goths, asian Magyars and so on
    3] maybe samples taken from a few elites can not reflect the overall ''textures'', certain fertile river basins were occupied by strong migrants, pushed away by other stronger migrants, they all left settlements from where we take now samples, but around them there was all this time a numerous populations not so developed maybe, with traces less visible in today archeology
    4] I think that the lower Danube area had the biggest population density for a long time, a large population which the migrants were not able to displace, R1a and R1b were more succesful in ares less populated.
    5] Again present day Vinca, and Cucuteni areas have a lot of I2, Cucuteni was largely started by Vinca people, am I wrong if I pressume that present day I2 is linked with I2 haplo from Cucuteni and Vinca period? I make most of my deductions based on the Eupedia site which states the link between I2 and Cucuteni. For more than 1000 years, maybe for 2000 years the Cucuteni culture extended to east, traded with people from east, they mixed a lot for sure in all this time, the Cucuteni area covered all the kurgan Uhrheimat from Dniester to Don even beyond, to Volga. In all this time R1b coming from south mixed with R1a coming from north and I2 coming from west in the area between Dnienster, Don and the forest steppes.
    6] Also there is a lot of 'historical gossip' about the link between the Getes (living in Dacia and Thracia) and the MassaGetes from the Oxus/Caspian area, leaving room to a possible relation with present day Jats from India who could be followers of the first Indo-Europeans in India. The link between ThracoGetes and MassaGetes is through Scytian area, it was a large indo-euroepan continuum until the arrival of the Turcic populations. Also there are quite a few historians saying that Getes and Goths are almost same thing.
    7] The Celts and the Goths, conquered Western Europe having as turntable, departure area, present day Romania which I presume to be an I2 area in the past, even more than today.
    8]Finally there is the issue of the Romanian language, I strongly believe that Romanization after the Roman conquest is bullshit, that Dacians already spoke a latin language before the roman conquest. That is a subject more difficult to discuss here with people who do not know the language, and here is after all a forum for genetics not for lingvistic studies.
    Yes we will have more and more samples to tell us the truth, in the meantime I am just noticing all these connections.
    I am apologize if I was too long, if I said anything stupid, brain storming can be useful sometimes, I am trying to learn ..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by srbo View Post
    About the Vinca simbols:

    The Vinca symbols orginate from the gravettian symbols.



    Upper Paleolithic writing recovered from Magdalenian cave sites (top) compared to characters in three early written languages: (b) Indus valley signs, (c) Greek and (d) Runic. Settegast (p. 28) after Forbes and Crowder, 1979. - See more at:

    This is also a proof that the mesolithic culture of the balkane influenced the neoilthic ones.
    You're aware that there's both thousands of years and thousands of kilometers between the scripts?

    Also "early"? The Runic alphabet, and Greek? Mind you, neither the Greek nor the Runic scripts are "ancient". By the time that the Germanic peoples became literate, people in Mesopotamia were already literate for some 2500 years. Likewise, the Greek alphabet is an adaptation from the earlier, Phoenician alphabet. I might add that you are, however, correct on one thing: the Greek and the Runic alphabet actually are related, just not in the way depicted in that picture.

    With regard for the Greek alphabet, that image is clearly deceptive because it shows (apparently cherry-picked) different variants of the same letter, for example third and four letter from the left are both variants of the letter Eta (Η or η).

    Also, some of the shapes are so simple (an "X" for example) that they are invariably likely to come up in different, unrelated scripts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You're aware that there's both thousands of years and thousands of kilometers between the scripts?

    Also "early"? The Runic alphabet, and Greek? Mind you, neither the Greek nor the Runic scripts are "ancient". By the time that the Germanic peoples became literate, people in Mesopotamia were already literate for some 2500 years. Likewise, the Greek alphabet is an adaptation from the earlier, Phoenician alphabet. I might add that you are, however, correct on one thing: the Greek and the Runic alphabet actually are related, just not in the way depicted in that picture.

    With regard for the Greek alphabet, that image is clearly deceptive because it shows (apparently cherry-picked) different variants of the same letter, for example third and four letter from the left are both variants of the letter Eta (Η or η).

    Also, some of the shapes are so simple (an "X" for example) that they are invariably likely to come up in different, unrelated scripts.
    Sure iam aware of this. The point is that i wanted to show that many of the vinca symbols orginated directly from gravettian symbols. these symbols were spreaded around euroasia. the most famous of these symbols is the swastika which was a part of the "gravettian horizon".

    Iam not saying that the old european symbols were a real script, but its a fact that after the collapse of these cultures the spread of their technological achievements begun.
    You are talking about the Greek alphabet which was indeed a adaption of the eraly Phonecian alphabet. The funny thing ist that archeologist found a tablet in greece with vinca symbols which was written written in some kind of linear style.

    Back in 1993, in a Neolithic lakeshore settlement that occupied an artificial island near the modern village of Dispilio on Lake Kastoria in the Kastoria Prefecture, professor George Hourmouziadis and his team unearthed the Dispilio Tablet (also known as the Dispilio Scripture or the Dispilio Disk), a wooden tablet bearing inscribed markings (charagmata) that has been carbon 14-dated to about 7300 BP (5260 BC).




    Another interesting thing is the earliest evidence of writting in aegypt and mesopotamia. Researcher are still arguing in which of these cultures the script evolved.
    The older evidence of this kind of pictogram writing can be found in the area of the cucuteni trypillian culture. this findings are 2000 years older that the one in aegypt or mesopotamia.
    But thats not all.
    Researcher found an Temple in the area of the cucuteni trypillian which is older then 6000 year. If it should turn out that this temple is older that the temples in mesopotamia and aegypt we should to reappraise the prehistorical history. Iam also very interested if there is any Old Europoean influence in the Uruk Time of Mesopotamia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You're aware that there's both thousands of years and thousands of kilometers between the scripts?


    Also "early"? The Runic alphabet, and Greek? Mind you, neither the Greek nor the Runic scripts are "ancient". By the time that the Germanic peoples became literate, people in Mesopotamia were already literate for some 2500 years. Likewise, the Greek alphabet is an adaptation from the earlier, Phoenician alphabet. I might add that you are, however, correct on one thing: the Greek and the Runic alphabet actually are related, just not in the way depicted in that picture.


    With regard for the Greek alphabet, that image is clearly deceptive because it shows (apparently cherry-picked) different variants of the same letter, for example third and four letter from the left are both variants of the letter Eta (Η or η).


    Also, some of the shapes are so simple (an "X" for example) that they are invariably likely to come up in different, unrelated scripts.

    Sure iam aware of this. The point is that i wanted to show that many of the vinca symbols orginated directly from gravettian symbols. these symbols were spreaded around euroasia. the most famous of these symbols is the swastika which was a part of the "gravettian horizon".


    Iam not saying that the old european symbols were a real script, but its a fact that after the collapse of these cultures the spread of their technological achievements begun.
    You are talking about the Greek alphabet which was indeed a adaption of the eraly Phonecian alphabet. The funny thing ist that archeologist found a tablet in greece with vinca symbols which was written written in some kind of linear style.


    Back in 1993, in a Neolithic lakeshore settlement that occupied an artificial island near the modern village of Dispilio on Lake Kastoria in the Kastoria Prefecture, professor George Hourmouziadis and his team unearthed the Dispilio Tablet (also known as the Dispilio Scripture or the Dispilio Disk), a wooden tablet bearing inscribed markings (charagmata) that has been carbon 14-dated to about 7300 BP (5260 BC).






    Another interesting thing is the earliest evidence of writting in aegypt and mesopotamia. Researcher are still arguing in which of these cultures the first script evolved.
    The older evidence of this kind of pictogram writing can be found in the area of the cucuteni trypillian culture. this findings are 2000 years older that the one in aegypt or mesopotamia.
    But thats not all.
    Researcher found an Temple in the area of the cucuteni trypillian which is older then 6000 year.
    http://www.ukraine-kiev-tour.com/neb...000-years.html

    If it should turn out that this temple is older that the temples in mesopotamia and aegypt we should to reappraise the prehistorical history. Iam also very interested if there is any Old Europoean influence in the Uruk Time of Mesopotamia. It seems there is:

    From Wiki:

    Nebelivka, or Nebelovka, in Ukraine, is the site of an ancient mega-settlement dating to 4000 B.C. belonging to theCucuteni-Trypillian culture. The settlement was for the time huge, covering an area of 260-300 hectares and home to perhaps 17,000 people.[1] The settlement within the boundary ditch includes over 1200 structures. Research from 2012 to 2014 imply "the possibility of state-level societies", contemporary with similar developments in Uruk. Mega-structures "suggest the presence of public buildings for meetings or ceremonies".[2][3]

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    Using data from over 150 languages, linguists at the University of California, Berkeley provide evidence that this ancestor language originated 5,500 – 6,500 years ago, on the Pontic-Caspian steppe stretching from Moldova and Ukraine to Russia and western Kazakhstan.
    “Ancestry-constrained phylogenetic analysis supports the Indo-European steppe hypothesis“, by Will Chang, Chundra Cathcart, David Hall and Andrew Garrett, will appear in the March issue of the academic journal Language. A pre-print version of the article is freely available from the Linguistic Society of America, the publishers of Language:http://www.linguisticsociety.org/fil...AlPreprint.pdf
    This article provides new support for the “steppe hypothesis” or “Kurgan hypothesis”, which proposes that Indo-European languages first spread with cultural developments in animal husbandry around 4500 – 3500 BCE. (An alternate theory proposes that they diffused much earlier, around 7500 – 6000 BCE, in Anatolia in modern-day Turkey.)
    Chang et al. examined over 200 sets of words from living and dead Indo-European languages; after determining how quickly these words changed over time through statistical modelling, they concluded that the rate of change indicated that the languages which first used these words began to diverge approximately 6,500 years ago, in accordance with the steppe hypothesis.
    This is one of the first quantitatively-based academic papers in support of the steppe hypothesis, and the first to use a model with “ancestry constraints” which more directly incorporate previously discovered relationships between languages. In future research, methods from this study could be used to study the origins of other language families, such as Afro-Asiatic and Sino-Tibetan.
    http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index....-on-the-steppe

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