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Thread: Genetic history of the British Isles

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    From my hard and deep research into genealogy and history the Irish and Basques are indeed the most homogeneous populations in Europe. The Irish have a tiny bit of admixture from the Norse Vikings though. And a tiny bit of French Huguenot contribution too.

    I have Cajun French ancestry and share ancestors and am a bit homogeneous myself. It makes me laugh a little when foreigners suggest that we Cajuns are a mulatto people; when the chances of this are extremely unlikely. They get us confused for French Creoles. (In my analogy; calling Cajuns a mulatto people or Creole is the same equivalent to saying Norwegians and Saami are mixed/the same people. The Saami evidently look Caucasian but are mixed with Siberian Mongoloid from the East.)

    In comparison; it is actually more likely for a Scandinavian to have Mongoloid Hun due to haplogroup Q. Neo-Nazi Nordicists in Scandinavia believe themselves to be the most homogeneous peoples in Europe; but history and genetics will tell you that this is most likely not true.
    By homogeneous, which do you mean ?

    1) lacking genetic diversity (i.e. individuals in that population are closely related to one another because they descend from a small founding population, like the Finns or the Jews)

    2) descending from a population isolated from the rest of the world for a very long time, and therefore having few outside "admixtures" (like the Sardinians or the Inuits)


    In the first case, the height of genetic homogeneity would be found on a tiny island with a lot of consanguinity.

    In the second, it would be a very isolated population like the Australian aborigines or the Andaman islanders, who supposedly haven't mixed with anyone from outside for over 40,000 years.


    Actually, in both cases, the acme of genetic homogeneity and purity would be the Andaman islanders. I suppose that by Neo-Nazi standards they should be the ones ruling the world. Too bad they still live in the Palaeolithic and will shoot arrows at anyone trying to approach their island.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    This is just the Y chromosome so it's very well possible the R1b founder could have been far more West Asian than he was even at the time of the Hinxton Celt which was 3000 years after the arrival of PIE speakers to Europe.
    What makes you think that the admixture that is now most common in West Asia, and hence was subjectively labelled 'West Asian', was already the most common in the region 10,000 years ago ? Do you understand that the admixture does not have GPS coordinates attached to it ? If R1b brought what is now labelled Northwest European admixture (not necessarily the one from Dodecad, it is merely an example to make a point), then that admixture would have followed R1b people from the West Asia and probably would represent only a minority of present-day West Asia. Of course that admixture would have become diluted, but it would have spread far and wide and would now be more common in Northwest Europe than in its place of origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    By homogeneous, which do you mean ?

    1) lacking genetic diversity (i.e. individuals in that population are closely related to one another because they descend from a small founding population, like the Finns or the Jews)

    2) descending from a population isolated from the rest of the world for a very long time, and therefore having few outside "admixtures" (like the Sardinians or the Inuits)


    In the first case, the height of genetic homogeneity would be found on a tiny island with a lot of consanguinity.

    In the second, it would be a very isolated population like the Australian aborigines or the Andaman islanders, who supposedly haven't mixed with anyone from outside for over 40,000 years.


    Actually, in both cases, the acme of genetic homogeneity and purity would be the Andaman islanders. I suppose that by Neo-Nazi standards they should be the ones ruling the world. Too bad they still live in the Palaeolithic and will shoot arrows at anyone trying to approach their island.
    1) lacking genetic diversity

    Also, I don't believe that Finns are very homogeneous as is claimed ... it seems only their maternal side is homogeneous. If you look at their history and their haplogroups it seems they are an Eastern European (or Northwest Asian) people that migrated into Nordic Scandinavia and mixed with the locals.

    It is quite apparent to me that they are a genetic group that is a cross of indigenous Nordic peoples of Scandinavia and Finno-Ugrics that migrated from the East; as well as other possible indigenous and migrant people that got picked up; originating from what is now Russia. I believe the Basques are far more homogeneous in comparison. Given that they have a higher incidence of R1b in their population than the Finns have N1c too; and the Basque population in 1800 was around 100,000 people; wheras the Finns were around 400,000 or so. (This is a rough estimate though. I haven't checked in a while.) This means that the Basques had an extreme baby boom at one point; moreso than the Finns.

    Even though the Basques are definitely mixed at one point; and may not have had R1b ancestors at one point; their massive spike in population suggests to me that they must descend from the same ancestors at some point; in total isolation; moreso than the Finns.

    Edit: I just checked the population for Finland in 1800 and it was actually around 832,700. Compared to the Basque country which was around less than 500,000 people. According to the website populstat.info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Just read the page.
    The best theory on R1b right now is that it spread into Europe with the Beaker Culture. Before that it was in Crete with the Minoan civilization. The Beakers spoke Basque which is the language of Linear A/B.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/05...ronze-age.html

    Bell Beaker
    Germany Quedlinburg [QUEXII 3] 2340-2190 BC H13a1a2c G73A C146T C152T C195T A247G A769G A825t A1018G C2259T G2706A A2758G C2885T T3594C G4104A T4312C A4745G T7028C G7146A T7256C A7521G T8468C T8655C G8701A G9025A C9540T G10398A T10664C A10688G C10810T C10873T C10915T A11719G A11914G T12705C G13105A G13276A T13506C A13542G T13650C C13680T T14766C C14872T A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C G16230A T16278C C16311T C16519T Adler 2012; Brotherton 2013; Brandt 2013

    Minoan
    Greece Ayios Charalambos [2AH] 4400–3700 BP H13a1a 14766C Hughey 2013

    I should add that these are the only two instances of H13 that have been found in any aDNA so far.



    http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/linerb.htm

    THE PYLOS TABLETS

    PYLOS TABLET PY Fr 1184

    Transcribed text: ko-ra-ro a-pe-do-ke e-ra-wo to-so e-u-me-de-i pa-ro i-pe-se-wa ka-ra-re-we.

    Ventris' translation: Kokalos repaid the following quantity of olive oil to Eumedes: 648 liters of oil. From Ipsewas, thirty-eight
    stirrup jars (?).

    Translation from Basque:

    ko ko kontrako enemy
    ra ora oratu to grab
    ro/ aro/ -aro all
    a-pe ape apez priest
    do edo edonongo from everywhere
    ke oke oker unjustly, without reason
    e-ra era erailketa murder
    wo/ awo/ aopetik secretly
    .to ito itoaldi drowning
    so/ oso/ oso simple
    e-u eu eupakada calling out to
    me ume ume child, offspring, descendant
    de ede edesti history
    i ei ei they say, I am told
    pa ipa ipartar northern
    ro/ aro/ arrotz stranger
    i-pe ipe epe luzatu to prolong, continue
    se ese esetsaldi attack
    wa/ ewa/ ea (emphasis)
    .ka ika ikararazi to terrorize
    ra ara arrapakatu to plunder
    re are arestian a short time ago
    we ?

    The enemy grabbed all the priests from everywhere and without reason murdered them secretly by simple drowning. I am calling out to my descendants (for the sake of) history. I am told that the northern strangers continued their (terrible) attack, terrorizing and plundering (until) a short time ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb

    I
    post the above link because the Tholoi originated in the Minoan civilization and spread to Sardinia and Iberia with the Beaker Culture.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_Bull-leaper

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crete

    "Crete's religious symbols included the dove, lily and double-headed ax."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization

    Small bronze sculptures depicting half-man, half-bull figures have been found, as well as characters with four arms and eyes and two-headed deers: they probably had a mythological and religious significance. Another holy animal which was frequently depicted is the dove."

    Dove and Bull worship were characteristics of both the Minoan civilization that Bell Beakers spread to Iberia, Sardinia, and Italy (through the Etruscan civilization).


    Don't bother pointing me to your page on "why the beakers couldn't be r1b" I have read it, the points don't have this kind of weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    The best theory on R1b right now is that it spread into Europe with the Beaker Culture. Before that it was in Crete with the Minoan civilization. The Beakers spoke Basque which is the language of Linear A/B.


    Don't bother pointing me to your page on "why the beakers couldn't be r1b" I have read it, the points don't have this kind of weight.
    Your theory doesn't have any weight at all. It's based on 1 mitochondrial lineage and incorrect linguistic facts.

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    We do not have a single Y DNA sample from Iberian Bell Beaker culture. Many people consider that proof that Iberian Bell Beaker couldn't have been R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Your theory doesn't have any weight at all. It's based on 1 mitochondrial lineage and incorrect linguistic facts.
    Well first off it isn't my theory, go look at the link I posted from the Eurogenes blog. There are also the 2 instances of R1b found in Beaker people, but the origin of R1b in the Beaker people is already pretty much accepted. This is the theory that follows Occam's Razor, no assumptions just facts. The linguistic part is debatable, but if you compare the Greek translation to the Basque one, the Basque is a lot better. Why bother chiseling a receipt into a tablet, its illogical, and he uses 2 names to explain symbols that don't fit the theory. Likewise Linear A has no known connection to Greek and yet it is ancestral to Linear B.

    Look at the Linear B number system and the Basque number system.

    Linear B:





    Basque:




    I should add that, from the link I posted. The Basque translation work started in 1930, and was most recently picked up again in 2001. The greek work was done in 1954 and not touched again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    We do not have a single Y DNA sample from Iberian Bell Beaker culture. Many people consider that proof that Iberian Bell Beaker couldn't have been R1b.
    I just don't understand how anybody could read this page top to bottom and tell me that Bell Beakers weren't a migratory people.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

    Skeletal studies

    Historical craniometric studies found that the Beaker people appeared to be of a different physical type than those earlier populations in the same geographic areas. They were described as tall, heavy boned and brachycephalic. The early studies on the Beakers which were based on the analysis of their skeletal remains, were craniometric. This apparent evidence of migration was in line with archaeological discoveries linking Beaker culture to new farming techniques, mortuary practices, copper-working skills, and other cultural innovations. However, such evidence from skeletal remains was brushed aside as a new movement developed in archaeology from the 1960s, which stressed cultural continuity. Anti-migrationist authors either paid little attention to skeletal evidence or argued that differences could be explained by environmental and cultural influences. Margaret Cox and Simon Mays sum up the position: "Although it can hardly be said that craniometric data provide an unequivocal answer to the problem of the Beaker folk, the balance of the evidence would at present seem to favour a migration hypothesis."[73]
    Non-metrical research concerning the Beaker people in Britain also cautiously pointed in the direction of immigration.[74] Subsequent studies, such as one concerning the Carpathian Basin,[30] and a non-metrical analysis of skeletons in central-southern Germany,[75] have also identified marked typological differences with the pre-Beaker inhabitants.
    Jocelyne Desideri examined the teeth in skeletons from Bell Beaker sites in Northern Spain, Southern France, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. Examining dental characteristics that have been independently shown to correlate with genetic relatedness, she found that only in Northern Spain and the Czech Republic were there demonstrable links between immediately previous populations and Bell Beaker populations. Elsewhere there was a discontinuity.[76]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    1) lacking genetic diversity

    Also, I don't believe that Finns are very homogeneous as is claimed ... it seems only their maternal side is homogeneous. If you look at their history and their haplogroups it seems they are an Eastern European (or Northwest Asian) people that migrated into Nordic Scandinavia and mixed with the locals.

    It is quite apparent to me that they are a genetic group that is a cross of indigenous Nordic peoples of Scandinavia and Finno-Ugrics that migrated from the East; as well as other possible indigenous and migrant people that got picked up; originating from what is now Russia. I believe the Basques are far more homogeneous in comparison. Given that they have a higher incidence of R1b in their population than the Finns have N1c too; and the Basque population in 1800 was around 100,000 people; wheras the Finns were around 400,000 or so. (This is a rough estimate though. I haven't checked in a while.) This means that the Basques had an extreme baby boom at one point; moreso than the Finns.

    Even though the Basques are definitely mixed at one point; and may not have had R1b ancestors at one point; their massive spike in population suggests to me that they must descend from the same ancestors at some point; in total isolation; moreso than the Finns.

    Edit: I just checked the population for Finland in 1800 and it was actually around 832,700. Compared to the Basque country which was around less than 500,000 people. According to the website populstat.info
    Haplogroup diversity within a population is not a good indicator of overall genetic (i.e. autosomal) diversity. I specifically chose the Jews for this first example, as they don't have any dominant Y-DNA haplogroup and appear very mixed. But the Ashkenazi Jews suffered a population bottleneck and re-expanded from a very small population. And since they tended to marry within the small Ashkenazi Jewish community, it kept genetic diversity low, with direct consequence that genetic diseases (e.g. Tay-Sachs) are far more common among "pure" Ashkenazi Jews today. It's a bit the same with the Finns, whose population 800 years ago was barely a few thousands (as opposed to 15-20 million in France). It doesn't matter that they have 6% of Siberian autosomal DNA. That's only interesting to historians. The Finns do have a lower genetic diversity than the European average. The highest genetic diversity in Europe would be in Italy. The highest by continent is by far Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    The best theory on R1b right now is that it spread into Europe with the Beaker Culture. Before that it was in Crete with the Minoan civilization. The Beakers spoke Basque which is the language of Linear A/B.
    IMO Bell Beaker were R1b but not R1b-P312 nor R1b-U106 who later became the majority in Europe.
    Bell Bekaer people were a minority group in Europe, albeit an elite ruling minority in some areas.
    Connection with Minoan and theory about Basque language are bullshit.
    Usatovo could be an origin of Bell Beaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    IMO Bell Beaker were R1b but not R1b-P312 nor R1b-U106 who later became the majority in Europe.
    Bell Bekaer people were a minority group in Europe, albeit an elite ruling minority in some areas.
    Connection with Minoan and theory about Basque language are bullshit.
    Usatovo could be an origin of Bell Beaker.
    Really? I read a Y DNA study on Crete and they found R1b1a1 M73 there, the Y DNA study on Sardinia found R2a1 and R1b1c. Both point to R1b being old in those areas.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/...-study-of.html

    Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.


    Of course, the issue cannot be seen in isolation, because at this time we see an increase in brachycephalic types in Crete and Anatolia, the appearance of the intrusive brachycephalic Bell Beaker folk in Western Europe, and perhaps even the presence of the interfluvial type (Pamir-Ferghana type) in the eastern Saka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Really? I read a Y DNA study on Crete and they found R1b1a1 M73 there, the Y DNA study on Sardinia found R2a1 and R1b1c. Both point to R1b being old in those areas.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/...-study-of.html

    Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.


    Of course, the issue cannot be seen in isolation, because at this time we see an increase in brachycephalic types in Crete and Anatolia, the appearance of the intrusive brachycephalic Bell Beaker folk in Western Europe, and perhaps even the presence of the interfluvial type (Pamir-Ferghana type) in the eastern Saka.
    The gradual increase in Cranial Index over the Bronze Age most probably reflects gene-flow from population/s biologically different from the Early Bronze Age Cretan population and from inter-population biological interactions (admixture) in the succeeding periods.
    so, if I understand well Early bronze age Cretans were not broadskulled ; Early bronze age Crete started 2700 BC , 200 years after appearance of first Bell Beakers in Portugal
    but maybe these broadskulled Cretans and the Bell Beakers had the same origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The gradual increase in Cranial Index over the Bronze Age most probably reflects gene-flow from population/s biologically different from the Early Bronze Age Cretan population and from inter-population biological interactions (admixture) in the succeeding periods.
    so, if I understand well Early bronze age Cretans were not broadskulled ; Early bronze age Crete started 2700 BC , 200 years after appearance of first Bell Beakers in Portugal
    but maybe these broadskulled Cretans and the Bell Beakers had the same origin?
    Well the h13 is from 4400 to 3700 BP so I would guess bell beaker ancestor was in crete at least that old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Well the h13 is from 4400 to 3700 BP so I would guess bell beaker ancestor was in crete at least that old.
    I don't say there is no connection at all, but first Bell Beakers appeared in Portugal 4900 BP.
    I don't know of any Bell Beaker artefacts on Crete. Do you?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have moved the discussion about the origins of E-V13 to its own thread.

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    I was very confused as to why the maps don't actually correlate to the data in the sources you posted. I see now that you copied the maps from the Britain's DNA site and are just pretending that you came to the same conclusions based on unrelated data. Very clever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I was very confused as to why the maps don't actually correlate to the data in the sources you posted. I see now that you copied the maps from the Britain's DNA site and are just pretending that you came to the same conclusions based on unrelated data. Very clever.
    What map doesn't correlate with the data ?

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