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Thread: Mesolithic man; Loschbour brought back to life

  1. #51
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    if you read what I wrote somewhere, the southern population where some EEF took their ancestors were derived also from a robust type which gave way to the 'eurafrican' type, high statured, long faced but with robust chin, robust cheekbones and browridges and receding frontal - look at some Portugueses or Sardinians and even some North-Africans: they have too their "commando" or "boxers" faces!!! don't be naive...
    a later slection occurred, linked to hazard, local soliations and way of life, which selected the small 'mediterranean' but if you look well, even these small 'mediterraneans' are not so long faced, lesser than the robust types!!! their faces are SMALL but retained a common southern trait: high ratio upper-face upon lower face, and high ration cheekbones breadth upon bigonials breadth!
    things are not simple because the sedentary ways of life (new ones) isloated more and more little groups and the effect of mutation/drift/selection has created a lot of subtypes uneasy to generalize and put into drawers, before the later expansions and miixings times - Combe-Capelle was very large high narrow (ratio) faced spite his "robustness" and the most of the breadth of his face was caused by the bizygoma (cheekbones) -
    the more typically large narrow high faced people to come in Europe (as a mean with narrower cheekbones than the Brünn-capellids) were the 'corded' types (nevertheless someones retain the 'brünnoid' and 'eurafrican' influences -
    concerning C-Capelle there were some pictures in some thread of Eupedia (I forgot where)

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    If I'm not wrong, the farest from EEF should be the Sami
    SamiCoupleFinnmarklowrez.jpgOle_Henrik_Magga_140x190.jpg
    They display important similarities with Loschbur, IMHO.
    On the other hand, the closest to the original EEF are sardinians
    giorgia-palmas-5.jpgMarco-Carta_articolo.jpg
    Not necessarily longer faces, but smaller and "softer" features generally.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In doing some reading on the Paleolithic, I chanced upon this representation of a Venus figurine from France dated 22,000 BCE. At least it has the benefit of being done by the actual people. Of course, people may have looked different in different areas and time periods.



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    Have you ever seen this guy? It's much mor erelaistic. He's from a Gravettian site in the Czech Republic, and I know is pre-LGM. In that site mtDNA U5* and U8c were found. He looks pretty similar to Loschbour.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Have you ever seen this guy? It's much mor erelaistic. He's from a Gravettian site in the Czech Republic, and I know is pre-LGM. In that site mtDNA U5* and U8c were found. He looks pretty similar to Loschbour.

    He is Paleolithic, thus much older and archaich, and genetically is probably very close to the Kostenski guy

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Have you ever seen this guy? It's much mor erelaistic. He's from a Gravettian site in the Czech Republic, and I know is pre-LGM. In that site mtDNA U5* and U8c were found. He looks pretty similar to Loschbour.


    Yes, that's right. It's the Gravettian site of Dolni Vestonice. The find is dated to 26,000 BCE. These would be the "indigenous" hunters of the area. Supposedly, the profile resembles a skull found nearby.

    This is the profile view.


    It's discussed at the two links below:
    http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/czechdolnivestonice.htm
    http://donsmaps.com/dolnivenus.html

    The figurine I posted is younger, dating to 22,000 BCE, still Gravettian from what I can tell. It was found at Brassempouy, Landes, France(southwest France, near the Pyrenees).

    Ed. I don't see that much difference between certain features in this man and in Loschbour...same forehead, eyebrow area, perhaps jaw and cheekbones?
    Last edited by Angela; 21-01-15 at 06:10.

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    I think the nose is still fairly common in Northern Europe.
    Very talented guy did this head, details, proportions, and with stone tools only.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, that's right. It's the Gravettian site of Dolni Vestonice. The find is dated to 26,000 BCE. These would be the "indigenous" hunters of the area. Supposedly, the profile resembles a skull found nearby.

    This is the profile view.


    It's discussed at the two links below:
    http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/czechdolnivestonice.htm
    http://donsmaps.com/dolnivenus.html

    The figurine I posted is younger, dating to 22,000 BCE, still Gravettian from what I can tell. It was found at Brassempouy, Landes, France(southwest France, near the Pyrenees).

    Ed. I don't see that much difference between certain features in this man and in Loschbour...same forehead, eyebrow area, perhaps jaw and cheekbones?
    how about this : Venus_of_Brassempouy.jpg
    25000 years old Gravettian Venus of Brassempouy
    eyes are hidden deep in the skull but no prominent brow ridges, not like the one you posted

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    i see , you posted the same before ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think the nose is still fairly common in Northern Europe.
    Very talented guy did this head, details, proportions, and with stone tools only.
    Also the cheekbones and jaw, IMHO, as shown in the frontal picture. The very receding forehead is similar to Loschbur's and uncommon in Europe today.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Reconstruction looks bit like this guy



    and this guy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    If I'm not wrong, the farest from EEF should be the Sami
    SamiCoupleFinnmarklowrez.jpgOle_Henrik_Magga_140x190.jpg
    They display important similarities with Loschbur, IMHO.
    On the other hand, the closest to the original EEF are sardinians
    giorgia-palmas-5.jpgMarco-Carta_articolo.jpg
    Not necessarily longer faces, but smaller and "softer" features generally.

    I prefer speaking about males – theirfeatures are less confusing as a rule -
    the Saami man is a good reflect of abrachycephalized gracilized 'brünnoid'-'capelloid' type, a small 'borreby B' in my system – the gracilization is complete in Northbecause the Saami have very reduced absolute features as a rule –the brachycephalization could be obtained by crossing ('alpinelike'ancestors with dark hairs) – I prefer this hypothesis to theinternal evolution but who knows ? -
    the pseudo-'mediterranean' Sardinianshows (as a lot of them) too brutal OR « primitive »features (frontal, eyelids form, nose form, even partly face) andseems to me a crossing between a partly reduced'brünnoid'-'capelloid' type with some eastern 'mediterranean' – Idon't even exclude in fact a first crossing 'cromagnoid'-'capelloid'which was frequent in some places of the last Mesolithic and evenin Neolithic time spite thetoo spred simplistic link made between time and culture ; buthere the most of the features are 'brünnoid'-'capelloid' inherited –a good pattern of a southern boxer indeed ! The new forms ofhumanity apparently linked to genuine 'mediterranean' (more eatsern)had more vertical (steep) frontals, weaker lighter lower jaw, longerdepressed tips noses, and, a bet of mine : a « sader »looks -
    itis true « mediterranean » term, typologically speaking,is a kind of « rubbish bag » based for the most uponpigmentation (mesological?) - robust/gracile, tall/small and« primitive »/ « evolved » types exited tooin South !!! if we could go back farther in time we could seethe ancestors of 'mediterraneans' were not so « gracile »as the today majority (and yet...) - but we know the most of thefirst agricultors come from Anatolia were of the more gracile« evolved » types (the most of them : the 'danubian'ones) – they were maybe a kind of selection based upon a smallnumber (drift) and new conditions of life -
    Iposted some 'mediterranean' looking people in a thread in Eupedia butI can no more attach any picture (I had interesting maps to postbut...) - things are like that !

    as you say the'mediterranean' type tipically has more a tiny face (but visible cheebones >> short ovale) than a true long face (except 'irano-afghan' and derived types) - 'nordic' has a long face with not too strong cheekbones # the "Viking warrior of cinema"

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post

    Reconstruction looks bit like this guy



    and this guy

    not completely, but I agree these guys have some ancient Mesolithic heritage (I would say: a big imput concerning the second one) : more 'brünnoid' - I red less than 15 years ago some naive "scientists" (is that possible? my God!) affirmating "the old forms of humanity linked to paleo and mesolithic had left NO trace among modern Europeans" (I smile to my glass of whisky)...

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    concerning the figurines I think they are not photographic pictures - they don't describe exactly the same features, by the way - sorry for "shower" your enthusiasm - that said, the man is very different from a "gracile mediterranean" of today or from a 'nordic', I accord ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    Reconstruction looks bit like this guy



    and this guy

    I agree, this could be the best example of Mesolithic European if it comes to skull shape, nose similar to gravettian figurin, and who knows maybe tone of skin is right too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I agree, this could be the best example of Mesolithic European if it comes to skull shape, nose similar to gravettian figurin, and who knows maybe tone of skin is right too.
    both of them have rather caveman look, and similarity with the reconstruction

    The other guy in other pictures


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Loschbour" is very well known by DNA-hobbyist, because of Laz 2014's analysis of his DNA. He lived in Luxembourg about 8,000 years ago belonged to Y DNA pre-I2a1b and mtDNA pre-U5b1a. His genome is used to represent "WHG" or Mesolithic west Europeans, by academics and Eurogenes.

    His skull is very well preserved and we know what pigmentation he had, and so I guess someone decided to make a reconstruction of his head.

    Here he is.....





    Here's where I got the pictures
    http://www.wort.lu/de/wissen/wissens...b398870806654c

    Loschbour's people(Genetically speaking not ethnic, in this sense Mayans and Cherokess would be the same people) are very important to the history of many of the people here, as anywhere from 53-30%(according to ANE K8) of our blood comes from them.

    His skull looks very exotic to me, but his reconstruction looks very west Eurasian.
    This face totally reminds me to Patrick Swayze

    https://www.stayathomemum.com.au/wp-...rblog.net_.jpg

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    He kind of looks Finnish, if a bit dark for a Finn.

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    I've always thought he looks a bit like Mait Metspalu. :)

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    ANE k8? Where can I find this calculator.


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