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Thread: Mesolithic man; Loschbour brought back to life

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Mesolithic man; Loschbour brought back to life



    "Loschbour" is very well known by DNA-hobbyist, because of Laz 2014's analysis of his DNA. He lived in Luxembourg about 8,000 years ago belonged to Y DNA pre-I2a1b and mtDNA pre-U5b1a. His genome is used to represent "WHG" or Mesolithic west Europeans, by academics and Eurogenes.

    His skull is very well preserved and we know what pigmentation he had, and so I guess someone decided to make a reconstruction of his head.

    Here he is.....





    Here's where I got the pictures
    http://www.wort.lu/de/wissen/wissens...b398870806654c

    Loschbour's people(Genetically speaking not ethnic, in this sense Mayans and Cherokess would be the same people) are very important to the history of many of the people here, as anywhere from 53-30%(according to ANE K8) of our blood comes from them.

    His skull looks very exotic to me, but his reconstruction looks very west Eurasian.

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    The tribe of Loschbourg branched of I2a1b some 15000 years ago and is now extinct.
    1,60 meter tall. Was he smaller than other from his tribe? How tall were mesolithic Europeans? Paleolithic Europeans were 1m80.

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    I see no reason why they gave him a positive canthal tilt which mongoloids and people high in ANE have. He should have very deep-set eyes with sharp bone structure surrounding the eyes, like this:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    "Loschbour" is very well known by DNA-hobbyist, because of Laz 2014's analysis of his DNA. He lived in Luxembourg about 8,000 years ago belonged to Y DNA pre-I2a1b and mtDNA pre-U5b1a. His genome is used to represent "WHG" or Mesolithic west Europeans, by academics and Eurogenes.

    His skull is very well preserved and we know what pigmentation he had, and so I guess someone decided to make a reconstruction of his head.
    Only a slightly darker pigmentation...but still pretty European/Caucasoid. How old is he? Is he the same age as La Brana man?

    Edit: This still raises questions to me how Europeans or Mongoloid Asians developed fair skin ... was it due to environment? And were the mutations relative? (between both races) Or did they develop independently, through Selection? Are both mutations in both races different distinct mutations of white skin pigmentation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Only a slightly darker pigmentation...but still pretty European/Caucasoid. How old is he? Is he the same age as La Brana man?

    Edit: This still raises questions to me how Europeans or Mongoloid Asians developed fair skin ... was it due to environment? And were the mutations relative? (between both races) Or did they develop independently, through Selection? Are both mutations in both races different distinct mutations of white skin pigmentation?
    He's about 8,000 years old, so 1,000 or a few hundred years older than La Brana-1. There are 5 Mesolithic Europeans we have pigmentation genes from, and all had blue eyes, dark hair, and except for a few probably dark skin.

    Loschbour was very typical for Europeans at that time. My best guess is that Mesolithic Europeans had similar skin tone as Indians, because Indians have a mixture of dark and light skin genes, like Mesolithic Europeans did. Indians also have alot of variation in skin color.

    Ancient DNA from Europe has revealed that light skin and hair became much more popular around 5,000 years ago in north European's ancestors, and that it was a slow process that had begun several thousand years before. That change had everything to do with natural selection, and little to do with genetics.

    North Europeans are basically a mix of 3 populations who mixed about 5,000 years ago; Sardinian and Basque-types, Loschbour-types, and Yamna(you can look it up) types. All except the Loschbour types had light skin, with a minority of light hair and eyes. These pops who were progressively becoming lighter mixed, and their mixed descendants eventually became what you see from Russia-Ireland today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Only a slightly darker pigmentation...but still pretty European/Caucasoid. How old is he? Is he the same age as La Brana man?

    Edit: This still raises questions to me how Europeans or Mongoloid Asians developed fair skin ... was it due to environment? And were the mutations relative? (between both races) Or did they develop independently, through Selection? Are both mutations in both races different distinct mutations of white skin pigmentation?
    you would find this interesting http://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/220-Pigmentation

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    Once we learn everything about pigmentation he will lighten up somewhat to the tone of skin of Native American hunter gatherers.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think the main difference with present day europeans is the accentuated receding forehead, a very recessive trait today, maybe due to later admixture with EEF/mediterranean people with generally straighter foreheads? The eyes area reminds me some finns and lapps
    Mika+Hakkinen+Laureus+Sport+Good+Project+Launch+fbSXGJ0WoQsl.jpg
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    Where did the skull come from? The loschbour skull im familiar with wasnt complete.

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    They just found the rest of the pieces and glued it back together? Lol http://olmec98.net/earlyEuros.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    I think the main difference with present day europeans is the accentuated receding forehead, a very recessive trait today, maybe due to later admixture with EEF/mediterranean people with generally straighter foreheads? The eyes area reminds me some finns and lapps
    Mika+Hakkinen+Laureus+Sport+Good+Project+Launch+fbSXGJ0WoQsl.jpg
    That's pretty good except for the pigmentation, but much more "modern" looking, don't you think? You don't see people with Loschbour's forehead and eyebrow ridge walking around very often, although sometimes you see a modified version of them.

    Just recently I noticed these two actors:
    This is Jerome Flynn. It looks much more pronounced than this when his head is positioned normally, and the eye area and facial width is very different, of course.

    It's even more pronounced in Anthony Starr, but I don't see pictures of him actually in profile. When I googled him, a separate heading for Anthony Starr forehead came up! I'm sure he wishes Beatles haircuts were in style again too.


    What about Nadal? I've always thought he has a very archaic sort of look to him.


    This is a bizarre and very unflattering picture of him,but you can see his profile better:


    what can I say? I have a thing about profiles...I notice them all the time.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

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    I am reading that there is a correlation between testosteronre and brow ridges :O

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    I know a man that looks exactly like that, including the blue eyes and black hair, that comes from the Eiffel. In fact, this fenotype can be found more in Germany. Now if I could only find the proper search string tofind an image of one of them..

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    OMG! I'm speechless. Well...I'm never speechless... Somebody dna test him quick!

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    From this angle Loschbour and La Brana-1's skulls look very similar.

    La Brana-1


    Loschbour





    It can't be random that both Loschbour and La Brana-1 have a Caucasoid-looking reconstruction. There probably was some assumption on their flesh, but the skulls don't lie.

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    We couldn't see the Caucasoid nose-ridge on Loschbour with the pictures Laz gave. I'm pretty sure WHG and ancient near easterns had the same basic Caucasoid facial features.

    We'd have to have the actual skulls in our hands to really compare Loschbour and La Brana-1's to modern people's.

    This Dienekes article is interesting.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03...sition-to.html

    I don't trust the whole Mediterranean-gracile-thin faces and northern-broad faces-taller thing, it seems very ethnocentric and raciest to me. There could be some truth to it, but....

    South Europeans have a very similar genetic makeup to Neolithic farmers, so of course they'll probably have similar skeletal features. If anyone it would north Europeans who would be most similar to Mesolithic Euros, but all of them except Balts still have 40-50% EEF ancestry aka 30-40% ancient near eastern ancestry.

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    The Moatalas from Sweden had their heads put on steaks, possibly killed in war.

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexp...bitants-002361

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't like the recreation because they did the eyes wrong, the brow ridges look stupid like somebody drew him without them and then inflated his eyebrows, and the eyes themselves look asian. The brow ridges should extend out over the eyes and the eyes should be deep set. His head shouldn't look round, Loschbour was "hyperdoliocephalic" as long skull as it gets, it should look like the pic I posted. You can see in the pic the guy has a very narrow long skull and the brow ridges are prominent, the recreation has a wide face.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The natives of Australia have very large brow ridges, so it's not like no one brow ridges like Loschbour anymore.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=aust...=0.75#imgdii=_

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    Here is another 7 foot tall white guy with prominent brow ridges, like the Russian boxer I posted. Apparently women don't get brow ridges because testosterone is what causes them to grow. I think Y DNA I men produce more testosterone so they get taller, have more body hair, more prominent brow ridges, physically larger and stronger, etc.



    Another two warriors with brow ridges

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    Since when did men with Y DNA I have more testosterone? More body hair doesn't always mean more masculine.

    I'm getting the impression that Mesolithic Euros were genetically pretty masculine. According to statements here and there from anthropologist they were heavy boned and broad faced. Plus if you look at Neolithic Y DNA alot of it is of Mesolithic Euro origin, while hardly any of the mtDNA is. Neolithic farmers for whatever reason allowed hunter gatherer males not females to move into their communities, and most of their WHG blood was via admixture with hunter gatherer males.

    This could be in part because EEF males saw WHG females as less attractive, than EEF females saw WHG males. Admixture between near eastern immigrants and native Europeans during the Neolithic was probably mostly a gradual process over 1,000's of years in many regions, not a single event, and it looks like the same pattern of admixture occured throughout time and space.

    Culture I think has a bigger effect on how masculine or raw men in a society act/appear than genetics, and this is true for cultural persona in general. There's evidence of this in American society. Many Latinos basically have the same genetic makeup as white Americans, because they have mostly Spanish ancestry, but see them selves as totally different, and in urban areas are more associated with African-Americans and urban gangs-violence.

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    It is so called archaic feature, and it is fairly common in other races too.

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    Motzart, so you're apart of a brother branch to M26, very interesting I didn't know one existed. Maybe Ajv 58 belonged to one of those rare or unknown P37 branches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is so called archaic feature, and it is fairly common in other races too.
    Native Australians have alot of it, but as far as I've seen no one in Africa or east Asia have much, and I would guess Middle easterns and south Asians have around as much or less than Europeans.

    If no one had gotten the genome of Loschbour I would think he might be largely of archaic origin. DNA testing has proven that it is not a law that humans must have small brow ridges, unproturding jaws, and long forheads, it's just that most around the world do.

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