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Thread: Kennewick Man Was Native American

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    Kennewick Man Was Native American

    Thanks to Dienekes for the heads up...

    http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...-american.html

    According to information obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, preliminary genetic testing shows that Kennewick Man was indeed Native American, ending years of controversy.

    This is the link to the original newspaper article:
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...ickdnaxml.html

    Dienekes' take on it:
    The recent publication of the Kostenki-14 genome, which has been described as morphologically Australoid, but appears to be genetically European should make us wary of interpreting phenotypes of early specimens in terms of the much later human populations. In the case of Europeans, it seems that the Caucasoid genetic lineage existed even before full Caucasoid morphology had evolved (at least in some specimens of Upper Paleolithic Europeans, as others had clear Caucasoid morphology).

    I would not be surprised if the same was true for Native Americans, that is, the typical morphology of recent Native Americans was not present in their earliest predecessors, who, nonetheless, were part of the same evolving lineage of humans in the Americas. The Anzick-1 genome from the Clovis culture and several mtDNA results have not really turned up anything "exotic" in ancient inhabitants of the Americas, so it seems that the hypothesis of recent Native Americans being descended from a wave of people that replaced earlier inhabitants is losing ground with each new discovery.

    Here is the reconstruction:


    I'm rather conflicted about using the Freedom of Information Act for this kind of thing. The scientists have a property interest in their work, and it would be better for everyone if the tests were completed before publication of the results.


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    Interesting, but I'll wait for the data before buying into any school of thought about Kennewick Man, who in any case was a single example and may not be typical. I doubt if most early Amerindians had a face that looked as European as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Interesting, but I'll wait for the data before buying into any school of thought about Kennewick Man, who in any case was a single example and may not be typical. I doubt if most early Amerindians had a face that looked as European as that.
    Consecutive waves of invaders from Asia changed their morphology somewhat. I think what they want to say is, that there was continuity from Kennewick man to modern Natives without replacement of population.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks to Dienekes for the heads up...

    http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...-american.html

    According to information obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, preliminary genetic testing shows that Kennewick Man was indeed Native American, ending years of controversy.

    This is the link to the original newspaper article:
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...ickdnaxml.html

    Dienekes' take on it:
    The recent publication of the Kostenki-14 genome, which has been described as morphologically Australoid, but appears to be genetically European should make us wary of interpreting phenotypes of early specimens in terms of the much later human populations. In the case of Europeans, it seems that the Caucasoid genetic lineage existed even before full Caucasoid morphology had evolved (at least in some specimens of Upper Paleolithic Europeans, as others had clear Caucasoid morphology).

    I would not be surprised if the same was true for Native Americans, that is, the typical morphology of recent Native Americans was not present in their earliest predecessors, who, nonetheless, were part of the same evolving lineage of humans in the Americas. The Anzick-1 genome from the Clovis culture and several mtDNA results have not really turned up anything "exotic" in ancient inhabitants of the Americas, so it seems that the hypothesis of recent Native Americans being descended from a wave of people that replaced earlier inhabitants is losing ground with each new discovery.

    Here is the reconstruction:


    I'm rather conflicted about using the Freedom of Information Act for this kind of thing. The scientists have a property interest in their work, and it would be better for everyone if the tests were completed before publication of the results.
    he looks more like Christopher Columbus
    Last edited by Angela; 19-01-15 at 01:18.

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    Sounds exciting. We finally hopefully will see the dna results after all these years, and have some more light shone on some of these early population movements into the Americas. I can’t wait to run it through the admixture calculators, and other online tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    he looks more like Christopher Columbus
    Well, they've tried to make him everything else under the sun, so why not Native American?

    Seriously, maybe I should have explained that the reconstruction is from a physical anthropologist who published a book on the remains, not from Willerslev's group. Originally, there were some claims he was Caucasian; however, after more extensive x-rays and imaging, ( shades of the Oetzi analyses) the anthropologist stated that Kennewick Man most resembles the Ainu (and their ancestors the Jomon) and Polynesians.

    I think the point is, as Dienekes pointed out, that the morphology of ancient people may be misleading as to ancestry....

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    I hope he had red hair, blue eyes, and a Y-Haplogroup that doesn't make any sense. Just to piss people off.

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    This would amuse me greatly

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    Kennewick Bro

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    Any predictions for the Ydna and mtdna haplogroups of Kennewick man?

    I'll go with C1 for mtdna and I guess Q-M3 for the Y. That's just because I read that researchers performing the DNA analysis “feel that Kennewick has normal, standard Native American genetics,” Otherwise, I'd like to say X2a and R1b-M269.

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    Well, back in 1999 they said his DNA was "D". But they attributed that finding to contamination.

    So if he has a different haplogroup that will be proven true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanda gikendaan View Post
    Well, back in 1999 they said his DNA was "D". But they attributed that finding to contamination.

    So if he has a different haplogroup that will be proven true.
    I think he may well belong to D. Three of the other ancient Native American skeletons belonged to D: Anzick1 (12,500 ybp); Paleo-Eskimo from Greenland (4,000 ybp); and the teenage girl found in the underwater cave in Mexico (13,000 ybp). (although some people take issue with Anzick1's date)

    Also, James Chatters has said: “The result from Kennewick is the same one we’re getting from the other early individuals,”

    I'll still go with saying C1, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    Any predictions for the Ydna and mtdna haplogroups of Kennewick man?

    I'll go with C1 for mtdna and I guess Q-M3 for the Y. That's just because I read that researchers performing the DNA analysis “feel that Kennewick has normal, standard Native American genetics,” Otherwise, I'd like to say X2a and R1b-M269.
    So I was right about the Q-M3 but wrong about the mtdna. Although I did say I'd like to say X2a: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...625.html#ref24 Very interesting paper to ponder.

    The closest match for the Y seems to be in NorthWestern Europe (Q-L804), and the closest match for the mtdna seems to be Europe as well, along with the Middle East and North Africa (the closer branches of X2). Although the Principal Components plot shows the closer matches being in Siberian populations, rather than European populations. And the Algonquin tribes are among the closest matches using other statistics.

    Also of note is his basal position of X2a on the X2a branch (negative for X2a1 and X2a2.) This suggests that maybe X2a isn't that much older than him (8,500 ybp). And if that turns out to be the case then maybe R1b-M269 could be old enough to have come over with X2.

    Also interesting were the EDAR mutations found in some of the 8,000 ybp samples in Motala Sweden. I wonder if they matched Kennewick Man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS Bach View Post
    So I was right about the Q-M3 but wrong about the mtdna. Although I did say I'd like to say X2a: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...625.html#ref24 Very interesting paper to ponder.

    The closest match for the Y seems to be in NorthWestern Europe (Q-L804), and the closest match for the mtdna seems to be Europe as well, along with the Middle East and North Africa (the closer branches of X2). Although the Principal Components plot shows the closer matches being in Siberian populations, rather than European populations. And the Algonquin tribes are among the closest matches using other statistics.

    Also of note is his basal position of X2a on the X2a branch (negative for X2a1 and X2a2.) This suggests that maybe X2a isn't that much older than him (8,500 ybp). And if that turns out to be the case then maybe R1b-M269 could be old enough to have come over with X2.

    Also interesting were the EDAR mutations found in some of the 8,000 ybp samples in Motala Sweden. I wonder if they matched Kennewick Man.
    Yeah you called it mang. Interesting about his mtDNA/age in relation to M269, but I think there's a huge proximity hurdle to overcome here during the time in question. R was and is highly dispersed though, and M269 looks to have branched off in the steppe. L804 looks to have come to Europe far later with Altaic peoples in the 1st centuries AD, but the EDAR mut in Motala right near the region of highest modern L804 in Europe is really interesting. Although the mutations weren't present at the frequencies of East Asians, and of course Motala was I2 and all WHG/SHG. We're also ignoring the fact that a small group of M269 should have IEanized all of North America, introducing horses, cattle, red hair, and bronze.

    In spite of my wish of R1a autosomally indistinguishable from modern day West Africans, with red hair, this is really good for the effort. Now remaining Native Americans will be encouraged to get tested so they can be proud of which ancient ancestor they most resemble and we'll learn more about the peopling of the Americas in the process, which little more than a decade ago was thought unknowable. Absolutely fascinating.

    In a no doubt futile and thus pointless attempt to theorize proto-language groups: It looks like Kennewick was some sort of proto-Salish, which given the additional affinity to Algic speaking people would imply an upstream proto-Salig . I would have guessed Penutian, but KM lived on a diet nearly entirely composed of Marine biomass, which fits perfectly with that the Salish culture subsisted primarily on a marine economy. The marine life was so abundant in the Puget Sound area that the Salish had evolved a highly complex social stratification, complete with what looked an awful lot like a caste system, without farming. This speaks to the value of the region, and how early this was discovered if Kennewick does represent continuity in the region, and it really looks like that. The southern correlations make sense too, because the easiest path to South America is along the Pacific Ocean. Looks more mayan than Aztec, and Uto-Aztecan came later from the great basin, which is all consistent at least. Hmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    The southern correlations make sense too, because the easiest path to South America is along the Pacific Ocean.
    According to this page: http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html Kennewick Man belongs to Q-M199, which is downstream of Q-M3 and is only found in South America.
    I took a sneak look at some admixture runs of Kennewick Man from a link on his page. There were four Dodecad v3 runs made, and I averaged them. Those averaged results, displayed here with Anzick 1 were:

    Dodecad v3
    Kennewick Man Average
    Anzick 1
    East_European
    4.26
    8.58
    West_European
    17.72
    10.70
    Mediterranean
    0.07
    -
    Neo_African
    0.40
    0.63
    West_Asian
    1.51
    -
    South_Asian
    2.56
    8.79
    Northeast_Asian
    46.45
    48.67
    Southeast_Asian
    22.59
    21.66
    East_African
    0.00
    -
    Southwest_Asian
    0.07
    -
    Northwest_African
    2.91
    -
    Palaeo_African
    1.48
    0.94

    The Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian results look close, as do the Neo-African and Palaeo-African. However, the West European, East European and South Asian results look significantly different. Kennewick Man looks more West European. I wonder if haplogroup X has something to do with that. The recent ancient East European results that have mtdna C (e.g. the Mesolithic Karelia one) are showing a sizable Amerindian component in some of the calculators. I know these algorithms can guess at some of these categories if they don’t have enough of the more recently derived SNPs, but the difference in the table here still looks marked to me. I also hope they followed an unbiased procedure in discarding SNPs they thought were due to contamination. If they discarded SNPs they thought were too European, that might have deflated the European component. I’m not saying that that happened though.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The autosomal DNA sample from Kennewick Man is available on Gedmatch.com as Kit Number: F999970. I ran the admixture results there for several different calculators and got the following results:

    For the Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions, it picks up 3.84% Mediterranean Farmer DNA in Kennewick Man. This is absent in Anzick 1, the Palaeo-Eskimo from Greenland, and the Mal’ta boy.

    Population Kennewick
    Man
    Anzick 1 Palaeo-
    Eskimo
    Mal'ta
    Boy
    Anatolian Farmer - 1.23% 0.12% -
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 7.87% 3.27% 10.46% 51.08%
    Middle Eastern Herder - - 0.18% -
    East Asian Farmer 3.77% 2.37% 10.77% -
    South American Hunter Gatherer 65.34% 84.01% 9.11% 19.97%
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer - - 3.38% 25.02%
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer 15.28% 7.91% 59.44% 3.24%
    East African Pastoralist - - 2.39% -
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.58% 0.69% - 0.43%
    Mediterranean Farmer 3.84% - - -
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - 0.48% - 0.25%
    Bantu Farmer 3.30% - 4.16% -
    However, this Mediterranean Farmer component doesn’t seem to appear in Eurogenes15 or the Dodecad v3 or K12b calculators.


    Dodecad v3 shows Kennewick Man as having 9% more West European than Anzick 1, and 1% less East European.

    Dodecad v3
    Kennewick Man
    Anzick 1
    Palaeo-Eskimo
    East_European
    7.62
    8.58
    5.25
    West_European
    19.75
    10.70
    7.87
    Mediterranean
    0.11
    Neo_African
    2.3
    0.63
    3.61
    West_Asian
    South_Asian
    6.63
    8.79
    3.4
    Northeast_Asian
    44.83
    48.67
    56.39
    Southeast_Asian
    18.05
    21.66
    18.43
    East_African
    1.63
    Southwest_Asian
    Northwest_African
    0.38
    Palaeo_African
    0.82
    0.94
    2.93


    This result looks fairly consistent with the Eurogenes 15 and Dodecad K12b calculators as well.

    Eurogenes15 Kennewick
    Man
    Anzick 1
    North_Sea 2.77% 0.95%
    Atlantic 7.20% 0.14%
    Baltic 0.53% 0.08%
    Eastern_Euro 6.58% 3.52%
    West_Med - -
    West_Asian - -
    East_Med - -
    Red_Sea - -
    South_Asian - -
    Southeast_Asian 0.16% 1.63%
    Siberian 10.06% 4.58%
    Amerindian 68.90% 88.51%
    Oceanian - 0.34%
    Northeast_African - 0.26%
    Sub-Saharan 3.79% -
    Dodecad K12b Kennewick
    Man
    Anzick 1
    Gedrosia 8.51% 7.83%
    Siberian 31.26% 33.51%
    Northwest_African - -
    Southeast_Asian 4.74% 6.32%
    Atlantic_Med - -
    North_European 24.14% 17.80%
    South_Asian 2.58% 4.41%
    East_African - -
    Southwest_Asian - -
    East_Asian 26.64% 29.05%
    Caucasus - -
    Sub_Saharan 2.13% 1.08%
    Maybe Kennewick Man’s mtdna X2 crossed the Atlantic some 11,000-or-so ybp and brought along with it this West European component / other similarly-named components.

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    Some schools of thinkings here too? but to criticize and metrics and auDNA:
    1- we share by force some ancient non mutated DNA with the whole humanity, current as ancient (we share a lot also with animals!)
    2- concerning metrics, almost ALL the valuable anthropologists of past knew that it is roughly said among 'europoids' that the most of ancient cranial features have been kept with; the most "brutal"like 'europoids' show the most of "family air" with 'veddoids' and 'australoids', except the nose and somewhat the prognatism evolution; a German scholar I forgot his name call that the 'median ligne' of human evolution; black subsaharian African show a lot of new features compared to past, as 'east-asian' do, on an other direction; I'm not amazed superficial analysis of cranial features of Kennewick concluded he was 'europoid' (in America it was almost predictible: complex of the colonizator).
    the same was believed in ancient time for Ainoos; as Ainoos, Kennewick would be an ancient form of east-asians physically less evolved (small number?). That doesn't prove Kennewick is part of the lignage which gave birth to ALL Amerindians... Things are on the move about the matter.
    by evidence the most ancient traits kept by every branch of humanity are partly common, no surprise; phoenotypical traits as well as DNA;
    &: concerning Kostenki14, I said it seemed more 'cromagnoid' than 'australoid' to me; it was a bet(lack of several angles helas) - rather less "primitive" than most of 'combe-capelloid-brünnoid' types. this reconstitution of the Kennewick seems a bit biased: the free jutting to high, and hte lack of muscles on the jaw, too narrow for a 'life' pictures concerning a man of these periods (personal thought, without guarantee).

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    I noticed Gedrosia and lack of Caucasus in both samples.

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    He got a significant Caucasoid DNA on autosomal results.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If Kennewick man had European admixture, it could only have come through Solutrean people. The Solutreans Clovis ancestors were mostly wiped out by Kennewick's man time. But if such a migration did occur, the best genetic mixture to detect such presence would be WHG not present day Europeans, who carry much Eurasians and Neolithic DNA. Can someone do a WHG or better La Brana comparison?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    He got a significant Caucasoid DNA on autosomal results.
    ^ His ancestors came from areas between Lake Baikal, Altai Mountains and Yenisei River, which were inhabited by Caucasoids:

    http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudie...-full-account/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/

    https://www.academia.edu/7110954/Upp...-_Supplemental

    (...) This suggests that populations related to contemporary Western Eurasians had a more north-easterly distribution 24,000 years ago than commonly thought. Furthermore, we estimate that 14 to 38% of Native American ancestry may originate through gene flow from this ancient population. (...) Gene flow from the MA-1 [Mal'ta] lineage into Native American ancestors could explain why several crania from the First Americans have been reported as bearing morphological characteristics that do not resemble those of east Asians2, 13. Sequencing of another south-central Siberian, Afontova Gora-2 dating to approximately 17,000 years ago14, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as MA-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum. Our findings reveal that western Eurasian genetic signatures in modern-day Native Americans derive not only from post-Columbian admixture, as commonly thought, but also from a mixed ancestry of the First Americans. (...)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF1UO0-cHLs


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    Mongoloids are defined by mutation EDAR 370A, which evolved perhaps some 30,000 years ago:

    93% of all Han Chinese have it, and this mutation is believed to be responsible for many of typical East Asian features:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectodysplasin_A_receptor

    (...) is thought to be responsible for a number of differences between these populations, including the thicker hair, more numerous sweat glands, smaller breasts, and dentition characteristic of East Asians.[5] (...) The 370A mutation arose in humans approximately 30,000 years ago, and now is found in 93% of Han Chinese and in the majority of people in nearby Asian populations. (...)
    Interestingly, many of Scandinavian hunter-gatherers had this Mongoloid mutation, implying a prehistoric gene flow from East Asia:

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/03/13/016477

    (...) The derived allele [370A] in the Motala samples lies on the same haplotype as in modern East Asians (Extended Data Figure 4) implying a shared origin. The statistic f4 (Yoruba, Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, Han, Onge Andaman Islanders) is significantly negative (Z=-3.9) implying gene flow between the ancestors of Scandinavian hunter-gatherers and Han so this shared haplotype is likely the result of ancient gene flow between groups ancestral to these two populations. (...)
    If you find any Mongoloid features in Swedes or Poles, they are likely from those prehistoric Motala-like (SHG) hunters:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2012...netically.html

    And not from Medieval Mongol invasions of Europe - "No Mongolian admixture in Poland":

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2013...in-poland.html

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    His ancestors came from areas between Lake Baikal, Altai Mountains and Yenisei River
    ^ Those were these two Ice Age refugia (people from those refugia, later migrated both to America, and to Western Eurasia):

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...cestries/page4

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    The important thing that we have learned from the recent spate of ancient DNA results is that ANE and Y-DNA R did not come from an ice age refuge in Europe. The refuge was in Siberia. Any hunter-gatherer in Europe with an element of ANE had ancestors from Siberia. This includes EHG and SHG. Foragers with ANE and Y-DNA R did not arrive in Europe until long after the Ice Age maximum.

    I hope this map makes matters clear:



    I should have added ANE to Y-DNA R in my key.

    (...)

    I look at DNA samples in their cultural context.

    The regions I outlined in red contain hunter-gatherer sites that survived the LGM. These refuge areas were relatively protected in the Ice Age. The coniferous forest refuge near Lake Baikal includes the Mal'ta site (24,000 years ago) with a boy carrying ANA and Y-DNA R. Early pottery was present in the Lake Baikal region - the type that arrived in the Samara region on the Volga c. 7000 BC.

    The refuge around the upper Yenisei river was sheltered by mountains. It includes the site at Afontova Gora, with a male carrying ANE (17,000 years ago). This site had pressure blade-making technology. This complex technique was most probably handed down within families and so would have spread by migration. Like pottery, it arrived between the Urals and the Caspian in the Mesolithic. It also reached Lapland by a more northerly route about 5836 BC.

    The major barrier was the expanded Caspian, which butted up against the Urals, as David Anthony pointed out in The Horse, The Wheel and Language. It was not completely impassible, but it seems that the bands of hunter-gatherers who clustered around the Yenisei and Lake Baikal were more tempted to roam from their refuge after the climate improved.
    Quote Originally Posted by alan
    It seems to me people are a bit resistant to all the evidence pointing to R not being anywhere in Europe until the Mesolithic. As you note, the evidence is for refugia in south-central Siberia/Altai and thereabouts as where both R and Q wintered out the LGM. Due to archaeological considerations and the huge geographical gap between that part of Asia and the Gravettians in Europe, I certainly feel R1 couldnt be in two places at the same time during the LGM. AFAIK evidence of contact between east-central Siberia/Altai and Europe is absent (we all looked hard for it) before and during the LGM and indeed until after the Younger Dryas IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man
    Even though the art of the culture that the Mal'ta boy belonged to is different from the true Gravettian art of Europe I still find it interesting that the Mal'ta boy belongs to mtDNA haplogroup U just like the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe although of a different subclade. Haplogroup U sure seems to have spread far and wide very early on.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    01-08-15
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Probably E

    Country: Germany - Sachsen



    1 members found this post helpful.
    If X2a came from the Atlantic with a Solutrean migration than why isn't anyone testing the Kennewick man for any WHG ancestry?

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