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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post
    Why is that the best scenario when E-M78 is almost non existent in West Asia, both ancient samples and modern distribution.
    Had e v13 came from Africa, countries like Albania, Greece, Bulgaria etc where E is at least a quarter of males, should have an abundance of mtDna L African. Instead that MtDna is completely missing, suggesting they were marring Euro women, which suggest they were somewhere in west Asia. Also non Indo-European countries like Finland, Estonia completely miss E v13, instead Sweden an Indo-European country has a good chunk of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???
    No, not necessarily because Gorilla is far coarser than any Men, and Neantherthal was coarser than any Humans. I would say coarse in a balanced way, but at time in history most people were coarse. Coarse females are usually not perceived as attractive/feminine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Who says?

    What utter nonsense.
    I guess women are better judges, and we all know what most women like these days. Generally a degree of robusticity is prefered, albeit in a balanced way.
    Also I've seen you here saying in another topic something along the line "not all of our Italian men are small Meds", so sounds to me that "small Med" is not so "desired" eh? :) Truth be told "small Med" are often very balanced, far more than most coarser types, it just lacks some robusticity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

    Until then, it's all just hot air.
    I presented you some archaeological proof from people with "authority". And from genetic side few indications.. There is no clear proof for many things and yet people still speculate about it. On the other hand if one wants 100 % proof, I suggest wait for 10 or 20 years when it's all settled, but ofc when it is, it is not as interesting..

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

    And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

    Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.
    I totally agree with you. Also, E1b1a heavily mixed with more Y-DNA B and A carrying Sub-Saharans, so we don't really know how they looked like initially. But their evolutionary route is way different than E1b1b's. Sort of similar like R1 and Q's.

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    Of course I meant no pejorative against gracile med types. To my eyes, most of the most beautiful people in the world, men and women both, are at least partly gracile med.

    See this thread post 20.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...625#post592625

    On the other hand, a little coarseness of feature doesn't spoil it, and may even enhance it, but even someone as gorgeous as Engin Akyurek would look better without that really heavy eyebone area. A little of it goes a long way. Personal preference, I understand.

    As I said upthread, I don't personally care how E-V13 got into Europe. I just think that the evidence right now, based on the fact that immediate predecessors are in Cardial Neolithic and other Balkan Neolithic samples, is that it came to Europe via West Asia, either with the Neolithic farmers or slightly before. There are no genetic samples in North Africa which would indicate otherwise.

    If for some reason you want to believe that, believe it.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Ancient Egyptians might well have been ones who preserved Ancient North African look.

    https://www.auntminnie.com/user/imag..._mummy_400.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/ce...c6689b8e97.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I totally agree with you. Also, E1b1a heavily mixed with more Y-DNA B and A carrying Sub-Saharans, so we don't really know how they looked like initially. But their evolutionary route is way different than E1b1b's. Sort of similar like R1 and Q's.
    Oh yes ofc E1b1a ancestors looked differently. I believe plenty of current "Bantu" traits are considered newer. Papuans are a good measure for the look of so many older populations.
    Also Yoruba Nigerians are 13 % Iberomaurusian autosomally.

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    In the e3b project: there are 5 cases of finnish e-v13
    it is not common there but it is still found there(although not indo-european country as someone here mentioned)🤔
    I have no idea when it arrived to finland ....🤔

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    I'm glad someones have had robust viril ancestors. Good. That said, it's not always the giants pops which evolve better, even in health and posterity. Social skills can help too. half LOL.

    Concerning the Last or "Second" Mesolithic phenomenon, nobody knows clearly when it originated; seemingly, the Ukraine hypothesis is rather dead. What we know is that at first it linked Montenegro/Dalmatia, South-Italy and Tunisia, not the whole North Africa; and the origin of this technic and people is still unsure. And this technic (and surely some people carrying it) moved quickly enough towards S-E Iberia (not the whole), coastal Croatia, 2 spots in N-Italy, France Provence and around the Loire mouth between today Brittany and coastal Poitou. After it reached Algeria. Then they disappeared from S-Italy, expanding into Portugal, coastal N-Spain, some places in France Alps and of Northern Europe. It disappeared later from North Africa. Whatever the supposed muscular bearers of it, it seems this culture did only flee before the Neolithic advance of the "gracile Neolithicers" (!) and just before to fade out remained in only in N-France (+ 1 spot in Jura), in Spanish Basque country, the lowlands of Belgium and the Netherlands...
    Knowing that the montenegro E-V13 had a rather great diversity in their haplotypes, I thought some years ago in a possible passage through Tunisia. The today anDNA data seems showing a late demographic expansion in S-Balkans around Bronze Age after a long enough period of stagnation. ATW if some EV13 were among the bearers of this "Second Mesolithic", they did not bring it in big numbers towards W-Europe. The Neolithic Catalan Cave E-V13 nevertheless, is still to consider, in some way. And even in this hypothesis, nothing proves us this culture was not bring to N-Africa from Europe. Exchanges can have occurred on the two directions, but this culture is not to be amalgamated with the general Capsian one.
    So I prefer to stay prudent here.

    &: if we look at the Y-E1b tree, we see the downstream of M78 branched into 2 groups, approximatively one North African, the other exclusively "European", this last under Z1919 with new branching between V13 and L677, both among Europeans. So the separation could be old enough, so could take place in more than a region according to our imagination.

    Concerning Finland, E-V13 is surely rare there; on the Maciamo's map (thanks to him) it appears as limited to far South, region not typically Finnish at all, at first. Finns of today are no more the previous Finnic-Ugric people, since long ago, and their genesis is complicated enough. BTW true Finns were rather last newcomers. To keep in mind: there is almost no country in Europe where there is not regional variations of means, except Malta or Greek Cyprus, perhaps, so speaking of a rare uniparental markers national mean...

    &&: these stories of "black" Paleo-Mesolithic Europeans are boring at last. They were dark skinned in some way, but were not to be confused with SAA people of to date, phenotypically speaking, even if we can imagine very far ancestors of both shared more traits than we do now. Human beings evolved, keeping one to one some common features when the other features changed, no group changing the same ones nor keeping the same ones.
    I 'm glad to read someones here know what look had the Y-E-V13 bearers (or their close ancestors) when coming to Europe.

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    Moesean all the 5 finnish e-v13
    i checked :
    4 from south finland , 1 from north central finland....
    so as you said mainly in the south....
    can someone explain to me what people here say about robust appearance ????
    like what
    square jaw , tall, ?
    and how do we know e-v13 were like that when they arrived to europe. ?
    Last edited by kingjohn; 11-12-19 at 16:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.
    And now we've got another Ossetian E-V13 result: E-CTS9320*! I donated for his SNP Pack cause he was a candidate for Z17107 but this result makes things more interesting for E-CTS9320! So both Ossetian V13's have no matches with anyone. Ossetian CTS9320 must be some Thraco-Cimmerian, if he is not Greek colonist (very unlikely). And I thought already this cluster has some connection to Thraco-Cimmerians. Above CTS9320 cluster found in Bulgaria and now I see one Albanian too (one Vlach from Greece as well), but there are many unusual unprofiled haplotypes in the East which could yield interesting results.. First Caucasian CTS9320+, there are others but thus far I only tested few for my SNP. One Georgian is 100 % some CTS9320.

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    Please point out the member who has an anti-Albanian symbol or whatever.

    It will be dealt with...

    As for whining posts complaining about moderation, they will be removed. So don't bother. Consider yourselves lucky I didn't ban you. There would have been a sigh of relief from a lot of members, believe me.

    Before you post on a thread, READ THE TITLE, and STAY ON TOPIC. Occasional digressions are fine, but I will not tolerate all genetic threads even remotely related to Albania turning into "ALBANIAN THREADS" spamming the same old crap. We heard it. You think you're all descendants of Illyrians (even though other groups are a lot more similar to Illyrian groups), and every yDna you carry is the best, was spread by steppe people, and all other clades descend from them, and all because your GREAT LEADER told you so.

    We've heard your opinion. Repeating it a thousand times is not going to convince anyone who isn't convinced already.

    You just turn everyone off and incline them not to listen to anything you say.


    ENOUGH!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    What's wrong with you?

    And stop with generalizing every Albanian as a crazy obsessed nationalist who is brainwashed by the government. You are scapegoating. Neither me nor Kelmendasi said anything what you are writing. We were discussing and pointing out genuine facts. Assigning E-V13 subclades to various small ancient tribes is utter bullshit and should be treated as astrology without tested bones. Period.

    As long as i don't insult anyone personally, or a group, i am allowed to post in this forum. I am keeping well to the rules.

    And, stop deleting posts, because it's getting weird.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please point out the member who has an anti-Albanian symbol or whatever.

    It will be dealt with...

    As for whining posts complaining about moderation, they will be removed. So don't bother. Consider yourselves lucky I didn't ban you. There would have been a sigh of relief from a lot of members, believe me.

    Before you post on a thread, READ THE TITLE, and STAY ON TOPIC. Occasional digressions are fine, but I will not tolerate all genetic threads even remotely related to Albania turning into "ALBANIAN THREADS" spamming the same old crap. We heard it. You think you're all descendants of Illyrians (even though other groups are a lot more similar to Illyrian groups), and every yDna you carry is the best, was spread by steppe people, and all other clades descend from them, and all because your GREAT LEADER told you so.

    We've heard your opinion. Repeating it a thousand times is not going to convince anyone who isn't convinced already.

    You just turn everyone off and incline them not to listen to anything you say.


    ENOUGH!
    Would be great if you could clear your inbox so that we could at least tell you our thoughts and talk without derailing threads.

    I agree that people should stay on topic, that's just common sense. But it is annoying when someone outs your ethnic group and the moment you respond, you are blamed for it. At least warn both parties.

    Also, it's kinda funny how any complaints are seen as "whining posts" and are removed. Your whole tangent about Albanians thinking their Y-DNA is the best because our "GREAT LEADER" told us just screams bias tbh.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Are you happy now?

    You could have quit after the first paragraph and I would just have told you I'll clear it, but no, you can't stop yourselves.

    And I thought Calabrians were the hallmark for people with stone skulls.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Anyway, my 5 cents on the topic. After so many ancient DNA reveals we got so many surprises, many people were talking with 100% probability on their mind about ancient migratory routs based on modern spread of certain clades but they were proven wrong. Soon, we will find out about the true story of E-V13. I am barely waiting for that. I can make a wild guess, it's a South Balkan lineage through and through. More of it, i don't really know. Let's see.

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    Do you have a problem with the English language?

    DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT MODERATION or you will get an infraction.

    I have removed the offending paragraph. The rest is rational, reasonable, and appropriate.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Something related to parent culture or a culture related to the parent of E-V13.

    Research led by Museum scientists suggests a diet rich in starchy foods may have caused high rates of tooth decay in ancient hunter-gatherers.
    The results published today in US journal PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) also suggest tooth decay was more prevalent in earlier societies than previously estimated.
    The results also suggest that the hunter-gatherer society studied may have developed a more sedentary lifestyle than previously thought, relying on nut harvesting.
    Dental disease was thought to have originated with the introduction of farming and changes in food processing around 10,000 years ago. A greater reliance on cultivated plant foods, rich in fermentable carbohydrates, resulted in rotting teeth.
    Now, the analysis of 52 adult dentitions from hunter-gatherer skeletons found in a cave in Taforalt, Morocco dating from between 15,000 and 13,700 years ago suggests people suffered tooth decay in much earlier times.
    Evidence of decay was found in more than half of the teeth that were intact, with only three skeletons showing no sign of cavities.




    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/...toothache.html

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    We need ancient samples from Qadan culture.

    The Qadan culture (13,000-9,000 BC) was an ancient culture that, archaeological evidence suggests, originated in Upper Egypt (present day south Egypt) approximately 15,000 years ago [1][2]. This way of life is estimated to have persisted for approximately 4,000 years, and was characterized by hunting, as well as a unique approach to food gathering that incorporated the preparation and consumption of wild grasses and grains.[1][2] Systematic efforts were made by the Qadan people to water, care for, and harvest local plant life, but grains were not planted in ordered rows.

    https://www.revolvy.com/page/Qadan-culture
    Saharan remains may be evidence of first race war, 13,000 years ago

    Scientists are investigating what may be the oldest identified race war 13,000 years after it raged on the fringes of the Sahara.


    French scientists working in collaboration with the British Museum have been examining dozens of skeletons, a majority of whom appear to have been killed by archers using flint-tipped arrows.


    The bones – from Jebel Sahaba on the east bank of the Nile in northern Sudan – are from victims of the world’s oldest known relatively large-scale human armed conflict.


    Over the past two years anthropologists from Bordeaux University have discovered literally dozens of previously undetected arrow impact marks and flint arrow head fragments on and around the bones of the victims.

    This is in addition to many arrow heads and impact marks already found embedded in some of the bones during an earlier examination of the skeletons back in the 1960s. The remains – the contents of an entire early cemetery – were found in 1964 by the prominent American archaeologist, Fred Wendorf, but, until the current investigations, had never been examined using more modern, 21 century, technology.

    Some of the skeletal material has just gone on permanent display as part of the British Museum’s new Early Egypt gallery which opens officially today. The bones – from Jebel Sahaba on the east bank of the River Nile in northern Sudan – are from victims of the world’s oldest known relatively large-scale human armed conflict.


    Now British Museum scientists are planning to learn more about the victims themselves – everything from gender to disease and from diet to age at death. The discovery of dozens of previously undetected arrow impact marks and flint arrow fragments suggests that the majority of the individuals – men, women and children – in the Jebel Sahaba cemetery were killed by enemy archers, and then buried by their own people. What’s more, the new research demonstrates that the attacks – in effect a prolonged low-level war – took place over many months or years.


    Parallel research over recent years has also been shedding new light as to who, in ethnic and racial terms, these victims were.


    Work carried out at Liverpool John Moores University, the University of Alaska and New Orleans’ Tulane University indicates that they were part of the general sub-Saharan originating population – the ancestors of modern Black Africans.


    The identity of their killers is however less easy to determine. But it is conceivable that they were people from a totally different racial and ethnic group – part of a North African/ Levantine/European people who lived around much of the Mediterranean Basin.

    The two groups – although both part of our species, Homo sapiens – would have looked quite different from each other and were also almost certainly different culturally and linguistically. The sub-Saharan originating group had long limbs, relatively short torsos and projecting upper and lower jaws along with rounded foreheads and broad noses, while the North African/Levantine/European originating group had shorter limbs, longer torsos and flatter faces. Both groups were very muscular and strongly built.


    Certainly the northern Sudan area was a major ethnic interface between these two different groups at around this period. Indeed the remains of the North African/Levantine/European originating population group has even been found 200 miles south of Jebel Sahaba, thus suggesting that the arrow victims were slaughtered in an area where both populations operated.


    What’s more, the period in which they perished so violently was one of huge competition for resources – for they appear to have been killed during a severe climatic downturn in which many water sources dried up, especially in summer time.


    The climatic downturn – known as the Younger Dryas period – had been preceded by much lusher, wetter and warmer conditions which had allowed populations to expand. But when climatic conditions temporarily worsened during the Younger Dryas, water holes dried up, vegetation wilted and animals died or moved to the only major year-round source of water still available – the Nile.


    Humans of all ethnic groups in the area were forced to follow suit – and migrated to the banks (especially the eastern bank) of the great river. Competing for finite resources, human groups would have inevitably clashed – and the current investigation is demonstrating the apparent scale of this earliest known substantial human conflict .


    The skeletons were originally found during UNESCO-funded excavations carried out to investigate archaeological sites that were about to be inundated by the Aswan High Dam. All the Jebel Sahaba material was taken by the excavator Fred Wendorf to his laboratory in Texas, and some 30 years later was transferred to the care of the British Museum which is now working with other scientists to carry out a major new analysis of them.

    “The skeletal material is of great importance – not only because of the evidence for conflict, but also because the Jebel Sahaba cemetery is the oldest discovered in the Nile Valley so far,” said Dr. Daniel Antoine, a curator in the British Museum’s Ancient Egypt and Sudan Department.


    Of the 59 Jebel Sahaba victims, skeletal material from two has been included in the new Early Egypt gallery. The display includes flint arrowhead fragments and a healed forearm fracture, almost certainly sustained by a victim seeking to defend himself by raising his arm during an episode of conflict.




    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...o-9603632.html

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