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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?
    From Natufian farmers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by angeleyes2 View Post
    From Natufian farmers?
    I think they are.

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    It looks like most of EIA Thracians from around the region of Svilengrad (Southern Bulgaria) were E-V13, while EBA was dominated by R1b1a2. Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    It looks like most of EIA Thracians from around the region of Svilengrad (Southern Bulgaria) were E-V13, while EBA was dominated by R1b1a2. Weird.
    It is not easy to read haplogroups in video because it is like in mirror.
    Bulgaria EBA:
    I2a1b
    I2a1b1a2a
    r1b1a1b
    R1b1a1b1a1

    As I remember in previous interview two R1a-Z93 were mentioned from EBA.

    Bulgaria EIA:
    E1b1b1a1b1
    E1b1b1a1b1a

    Early Bulgarian:
    Q1a2a


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    Looks like only E-V13 lived in Thrace since the Iron Age based on these results!! Not only two near Slivengrad but also one "E" in Late Iron Age, and also one E-V13 in LA - "Late Antiquity"... We also had one E, slightly above V13 from Thrace years ago (he is V13 too fc, I think some confirmed it).. This is a really telling sign, you jump the eras and E-V13 comes out first...

    Regarding the EBA, it depends what "EBA" means, some E-V13 clades suggest an expansion in Bulgarian regions rather in Late EBA, not in Early EBA. However the most numerous E-V13 clades have LBA, EIA TMRCA.

    Ofc I knew that in advance based on E-V13 diversity. And unlike Serbs and Albanians, half of Bulgarian population is not descended from 10-15 individuals who lived in the Medieval times, so they are lot more heterogeneous..

    EIA, LIA, LA - Thrace E-V13 ownage. To have E-V13 pop out as no.1 in all eras is a clear sign Thracians had up to 50 % or more of E-V13.. Just as the coming Viminatium LA results will show for the Moesian areas..

    All of you E-V13 = Illyrian just got blown to bits. I never supported that for my hg's sake, E-V13 originally came from the Western Balkans, to have them as locals there means as Albanian admin Skerdilaid/Leki put it originally they were "just farmers who accepted Illyrian culture". The problem is, it is clearly a BA haplogroup, and not Neolithic hg.. So they won't be just some "farmers doing their farming and eagerly accepting being owned"..

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    Albanians have diversity of E-V13 Z5018 subclades starting from MBA, and the lack of E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria makes me think rather a spread from Pannonian-Carpathian basin. Much probably the original Urnfield Illyrians had E-V13 too in a combination with Bell Beaker R1b clades, i expect Ancient Macedonians and Dorians to show E-V13 percentages as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Albanians have diversity of E-V13 Z5018 subclades starting from MBA, and the lack of E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria makes me think rather a spread from Pannonian-Carpathian basin. Much probably the original Urnfield Illyrians had E-V13 too in a combination with Bell Beaker R1b clades, i expect Ancient Macedonians and Dorians to show E-V13 percentages as well.
    Lack of V13 in EBA Bulgaria as I've said is not indicative of anything unless they have samples from the late EBA (2000 BC, 2800 BC is not of much relevance to V13). Actually archaeologically in Bulgaria during the Bronze Age there wasn't too much, all agree that Thracians were formed in the Early Iron Age by a series of cultures..

    Albanians have high diversity of Z5018 but Bulgarians have as high/higher diversity of Z5018, especially some clades. Generally they are LBA/EIA distance which suggests Late Bronze Age collapse/Urnfield..

    I don't disagree that Urnfield groups had plenty of E-V13. But the point is people like Thracians were too part of Urnfield, Thracians practiced cremation. Dacians proper were quite an Urnfield people in most respects etc.

    About Illyrians, most say more typical of them was inhumation, in essence all those Illyrian cultures which practiced inhumation had clear connections with the pre-Unrfield Illyrian spectrum, and with that J-L283 find. So no doubt J-L283 has little to do with the Urnfield, they were the newcomers in 2000 BC. Some E-V13's were likely there living with them (such as those older PH1246's).

    Among Illyrians you had Glasinac-Mati complex which was archaeologically directly connected to that J-L283 find. And the second part were these Urnfield related migrations. Not all of them are necessarily Urnfield proper, but they are related to Urnfield.

    The unknown thing is the language, which group brought the Illyrian language, but in that respect they were divided along the Glasinac-Urnfield line.

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    You can't get closer to Eastern Urnfielders than Classical Illyrians. So, we should expect several different groups during LBA in Balkans.

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    Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
    Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...eastern_Europe
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1][2]
    Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.

    This is not within the scope of the thread, but L283 might have been around Austria 4+kya before branching into the Balkans and Italy. Nuragic/Etruscan - MBA Croatia/Mokrin Serbia (if confirmed). This is just a wild theory I thought of. There is of course more consensus that it could have spread from the Balkans on a maritime route to Italy around that period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
    Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...eastern_Europe
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1][2]
    Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.
    Exactly. There is no hard evidence for such claims. It's just one theory, which is being pushed by certain south Slavs to make Illyrian as "late comers" as possible. I think it's also inspired by the fact that the most dominant haplogroups found among Albanians (example J-L283, and very likely R-PF7563, R-Z2103, E-V13) predate the "Urnfield movements" in the Balkans.

    The alternative theory below is taken from: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

    "Older Pan-Illyrian theories which emerged in the 1920s placed the proto-Illyrians as the original inhabitants of a very large area which reached central Europe. These theories, which are now generally dismissed by scholars, were used in the political of the era and its racialistic notions of Nordicism and Aryanism.[23] The main fact which these theories tried to address was the existence of traces of Illyrian toponymy in parts of Europe beyond the western Balkans, an issue whose origins are still unclear[31] The specific theories have found little archaeological corroboration, as no convincing evidence for significant migratory movements from the Luzatian culture into the west Balkans have ever been found.[32][33] Rather, archaeologists from former Yugoslavia highlighted the continuity between the Bronze and succeeding Iron Age (especially in regions such as Donja Dolina, central Bosnia-Glasinac, and northern Albania (Mat river basin)), ultimately developing the so-called "autochthonous theory" of Illyrian genesis.[33] The "autochthonous" model was most elaborated upon by Alojz Benac and B. Čović. They argued (following the "Kurgan hypothesis") that the 'proto-Illyrians' had arrived much earlier, during the Bronze Age as nomadic Indo-Europeans from the steppe. From that point, there was a gradual Illyrianization of the western Balkans leading to historic Illyrians, with no early Iron Age migration from northern Europe."

    Based on what we know so far, I would lean towards the above statements.

    Not denying that Urnfield couldn't have had any impact among Illyrians either, but I think it would be premature to say the least that Illyrians are mainly descended by them (whether linguistically or genetically).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You can't get closer to Eastern Urnfielders than Classical Illyrians. So, we should expect several different groups during LBA in Balkans.
    Ofc only Eastern Urnfield is realistic for younger V13 clades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
    Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...eastern_Europe
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1][2]
    Search for non-wikipedia material, there was heavy Urnfield (pre-Hallstat) influence in Illyrian areas. Celtic proper is Western Hallstat and La Tene culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.
    It is late for "V13", it is not late for E-CTS9320, for E-L241.. For J-L283 it is not only late but impossible to fit into most of J-L283 because of much weaker presence in Carpatho-Pannonian areas.


    I just took a look at this site in Bulgaria where J2a1a1b, and I-L702 (per this ISOGG) were found. This is "Yunatsite" culture, first half of the 3rd millenium BC so this is not where E-V13 is to be expected.. Earliest V13 migrants must come little bit later at least..

    Interesting below are the R-L52 and R-Z2103 finds from EBA Bulgaria, it would be interesting to see the exact cultural context. They are not from Yunatsite sites.

    I'm trying to get more info on these R1b finds. Trying to catch this guy when he's moving and revealing more of the screen.. That way I already got more info.

    In any case V13 is stronk later, at the same time taking this and earlier studies with large Neolithic, Chalolithic and Early EBA sample into account, it is clear V13 is not native there in Neolithic/Chalcolitic/Early EBA (2500 BC and before..) as expected looking at the diversity etc.

    So the lone Bulgar tested was Q-L53. Not unexpected at all, though I kinda expected Hunnic Q-L712. He was speaking something about the autosomal, and he mostly spoke about Bulgars hg in general.. As he said this study will be published only in 2021 so it's good we've got this info this early. There is ofc still plenty to wait for (BAM files etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    EIA, LIA, LA - Thrace E-V13 ownage. To have E-V13 pop out as no.1 in all eras is a clear sign Thracians had up to 50 % or more of E-V13.. Just as the coming Viminatium LA results will show for the Moesian areas..

    All of you E-V13 = Illyrian just got blown to bits. I never supported that for my hg's sake, E-V13 originally came from the Western Balkans, to have them as locals there means as Albanian admin Skerdilaid/Leki put it originally they were "just farmers who accepted Illyrian culture". The problem is, it is clearly a BA haplogroup, and not Neolithic hg.. So they won't be just some "farmers doing their farming and eagerly accepting being owned"..
    I hope you're not suggesting that Illyrians couldn't have had V13. That modern V13 expanded starting in the Bronze Age is no news either.

    Unfortunately, no Iron Age Y-DNA from western Balkans/Illyrian areas as of yet. But considering V13 is showing expansion since +4000 ybp, it would be illogical to assume that it was part of a single Iron Age ethnicity, as you seem to imply.

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    A single EIA Thracian site with strong ties to Northern Greece doesn't tell anything. E-V13 will be widespread and will definitely not exceed 30-40% at any Ancient Balkan population. We should expect Illyrians from Albania, Paeonians, Ancient Macedonians/Dorians, Epirotes to have E-V13 as well. And, Dardanians ofcourse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I hope you're not suggesting that Illyrians couldn't have had V13. That V13 expanded starting in the bronze age is no news either.
    Unfortunately, no Iron Age Y-DNA from western Balkans/Illyrian areas as of yet. But considering V13 is showing expansion since +4000 ybp, it would be logical to assume that it wasn't part of a single Iron Age ethnicity, as you seem to imply.
    No ofc not, and even plenty of Bulgarian E-V13 would have been incomers from other areas, because as I've said it seems there wasn't too much happening in MBA Bulgaria, usually what is mentioned are some strong EIA cultures, such as Besarabi, Zimnicea-Plovdiv etc.

    However I always maintained that when it comes to the Western Balkans E-V13 seems to show very strong EBA/basal and EIA/LBA diversity. Not as much diversity in the middle. The first refers to the supposed Cetina remnants (PH1246) who just continued to live there, but obviously the second is mostly related to these younger but very expansive clades such as CTS9320, L241, FGC11450 and some other Z5018 clades. Obviously these must be related to the Bronze Age collapse movements.

    For some E-V13 clades as it is already it is obvious they are very Illyrian, for example the Z16988 clade.. There are some Z16988 basals in Bulgaria/Moldova too interestingly, probably some link from the early expansion..

    For me the game changer was finding clear links of Glina III-Schneckenberg culture (modern day Romania) in the pre-proto-Cetina phase (which corresponds with the separation of E-CTS1273). Until that point V13 didn't make much sense (at least going from the Cetina culture as starting point).. After that point E-V13 makes perfect sense.. Not only when it comes to basal BY3880's but also these younger clades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    A single EIA Thracian site with strong ties to Northern Greece doesn't tell anything. E-V13 will be widespread and will definitely not exceed 30-40% at any Ancient Balkan population. We should expect Illyrians from Albania, Paeonians, Ancient Macedonians/Dorians, Epirotes to have E-V13 as well. And, Dardanians ofcourse.
    I supect there were regional variations especially among the Illyrians.. And you mean modern Northern Greece?? In reality much of "modern Northern Greece" was Thracian.. Take a look at this map. Today, Greek are the areas ancient Greeks have nothing to do with. And these finds are from the core Thracian territory, they aren't really bordering the ancient Greeks... Interesting, we had that old E-Z1919 sample from Svilengrad, I'm not sure the site was exactly the same. I wouldn't expect these two to include that sample.. That's why although we have one Greek E-CTS9320* (SNP pack), I cannot yet make up my mind about his ancient connections because he is actually only 10 miles away from these Thracian finds..


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I supect there were regional variations especially among the Illyrians.. And you mean modern Northern Greece?? In reality much of "modern Northern Greece" was Thracian.. take a look at this map. Today, Greek are the areas ancient Greeks have nothing to do with. And these finds are from the core Thracian territory.. Interesting, we had that old E-Z1919 sample from Svilengrad, I'm not sure the site was exactly the same. I wouldn't expect these two to include that sample. That's why although we have one Greek E-CTS9320* (SNP pack), I cannot yet make up my mind about his ancient connections because he is actually only 10 miles away from these Thracian finds..

    A study regarding the site which those E-V13 were found.

    This paper brings together old and new archaeobotanical evidence from 20 archaeological sites from Iron Age contexts spanning from the end of the 2nd millennium BC up to the end of the 4th century BC in northern Greece and southern Bulgaria. The sites are Karabournaki, Thessaloniki Toumba and Polichni in central Macedonia in northern Greece and Bresto, Malenovo, Dolno Cherkovishte, Kapitan Andreevo, Svilengrad and Dana Bunar in the region of south Bulgaria. A variety of cereals and pulses, already cultivated since Neolithic and Bronze Age times, are identified as potential culinary ingredients in both regions, yet the list of crops from northern Greece includes a wider diversity than that from the Bulgarian sites, especially regarding the fruit remains. Continuities and discontinuities of plant ingredients in space and time are discussed in relation to potential taphonomic biases. This new evidence from the region indicates that during the Iron Age this part of southeastern Europe shared common traditions in terms of the plant species consumed, with some differences already visible during the Late Bronze Age.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_and_Bulgaria

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    And, definitely there was a LBA/EIA Urnfield layer in Western Balkans.

    Especially in the context of the assumed expansion of the so-called “Urnfield bronzes” towards the Mediterranean cultures, the area of the western Balkans was often considered as a main connection. Considering that most of the sampled objects are indeed closely connected with typical Urnfield bronze spectrum, the results of this project will contribute to elucidate possible significance of the local communities within wider historical processes between Central Europe and Mediterranean.


    https://www.orea.oeaw.ac.at/en/resea...ntral-balkans/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    A study regarding the site which those E-V13 were found.
    Greeks were the factor in ancient times. They had colonies.. These are crops. And culinary ingredients travel much easier than people. Making sushi doesn't make me ethnically Japanese. That way one might as well claim most Albanian E-V13's descend of Greek colonists...

    Yet the current aDNA evidence is clear even at smaller sample. E-V13 has strong Thracian connection, stronger than either the Greek or Illyrian. Because you see although the sample is small, when you test any population more common hg's pop out the first.. We already have E-FGC44169 Getae from 300 BC, and now these Thracians. Plus in different eras, couldn't see from where these later LIA and LA samples are from. LIA sample had "contamination", because of that he is just "E". Needless to say the options under "E" for him are limited.. Early and limited aDNA connected to Ancient Greece and Illyrians is of different variety. Albeit we are soon apparently getting more of Greeks and still no E-V13's.. Ofc they will appear..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Greeks were the factor in ancient times. They had colonies.. These are crops. And culinary ingredients travel much easier than people. Making sushi doesn't make me ethnically Japanese. That way one might as well claim most Albanian E-V13's descend of Greek colonists...

    Yet the current aDNA evidence is clear even at smaller sample. E-V13 has strong Thracian connection, stronger than either the Greek or Illyrian. Because you see although the sample is small, when you test any population more common hg's pop out the first.. We already have E-FGC44169 Getae from 300 BC, and now these Thracians. Plus in different eras, couldn't see from where these later LIA and LA samples are from. LIA sample had "contamination", because of that he is just "E". Needless to say the options under "E" for him are limited.. Early and limited aDNA connected to Ancient Greece and Illyrians is of different variety. Albeit we are soon apparently getting more of Greeks and still no E-V13's.. Ofc they will appear..
    So you are suggesting all E-V13 are Thracian descended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    So you are suggesting all E-V13 are Thracian descended.
    Nope. But I do suggest that if you ask the question: "which one of the three, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks might have had the strongest impact (biological/cultural) of E-V13 clades", then I would answer likely the Thracians..

    I do not believe basal E-V13 clades are originally "Thracian" especially if Thracians are LBA/EIA people, like the Illyrians.. These basals were mostly something "undefined" by the Iron Age standard..

    Per my model of E-V13 expansion some V13 clades reached various Balkan areas already in 2000 BC..


    I managed to get regarding those Bulgarian EBA R1b's "oNorth..", hmm maybe "o" is for outlier, Northern Bulgarian outlier?? Like that Bulgarian Yamnaya outlier from the earlier study (Bul4).. If so, I wouldn't expect V13 there either.. That outlier was almost 5000 years old..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I managed to get regarding those Bulgarian EBA R1b's "oNorth..", hmm maybe "o" is for outlier, Northern Bulgarian outlier?? Like that Bulgarian Yamnaya outlier from the earlier study (Bul4).. If so, I wouldn't expect V13 there either.. That outlier was almost 5000 years old..
    There is another EIA sample with "o", and two with "lc" abbreviation. Obviously lc = low quality.
    And "o" is one of two Svilengrad samples, the other, including seven samples near Svilengrad has no "o".

    I guess it means he is an autosomal outlier indeed!!

    So these R1b's are likely some autosomal outliers also, in the sense they depart from the Yamnaya standard or the average EBA Bulgarian standard... North might mean "geographically" or "more Steppe genetically", latter is more likely.. Probably some older group (that Bulgarian outlier was 4900-5000 years old), not where I would expect the E-V13..


    And it seems this "o" indicates one Svilengrad sample is autosomally different from the other Thracian samples near/around Svilengrad..
    That means ofc E-V13 samples from there are autosomally Thracian (as established by 9 samples) and cannot have any recent foreign ancestry..

    Progon, you got beaten by a single letter.. E-V13 guys are obviously autosomally Thracian..


    EDIT: of course "o" is an outlier. The Bulgar sample has "oEastAsian", quite clearly an outlier in an East Asian direction, expectedly. So the EBA R1b samples are outliers in Steppe direction.. Probably some very early Yamnaya (maybe even BB as one was L52) migration..

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    haha you are having multiple orgasms probably. You will live to see that Illyrians and Greeks as well will show the same E-V13 amount as Thracians. It will not exceed 40% among any ancient ethnicity though. This Thracian burial was irrelevant anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You will live to see that Illyrians and Greeks as well will show the same E-V13 amount as Thracians.
    They won't.

    Maybe regionally.

    Even looking at our major E-V13 clade of my own CTS9320, whose age and spread point to some very influential group in LBA/EIA..

    Currently on the tree you kinda see more Western orientation especially with these Z16988, but lets take a look at some SNP confirmed E-CTS9320 who are negative to all of these subclades:
    -Bulgarian, NW Bulgaria. Has a cousin in Romania from scientific paper but ofc due to Romanians being poorly tested you don't see that at FTDNA or at YFull
    -Bulgarian, North Bulgaria. Has multiple cousins in Romania, and one cousin iz Szekely Hungarians from studies.
    -Greek near Svilengrad I mentioned
    -Ossetian

    It's very hard to fit these into Illyrians proper.

    I suspect CTS9320 was part of an Eastern Urnfield group, one of these cultures was a mixture of various elements, Thracian, would be Illyrian, and even Cimmerian. I found this culture recently, unlike most Urnfielders they had more inhumations, it would be interesting to test them.

    Even though for example Thracians, Getae-Dacians preferred cremation often there were some inhumation sites.

    Among some Illyrians from for example Bosnia, so Pannonians, the cult of Thracian Horseman was popular.

    In any case you can't claim ridiculous things like Derite and Leki used to. That Bulgarian E-V13 came to Bulgaria in the Early Medieval.

    This find is great, but equaly important to me are these LIA and LA finds, which indicate more than anything else the strength of V13 in Thracians.

  24. #374
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    For example there are these "Hungarian Scythians", DA191, DA194, DA195, DA197. They aren't Scythian at all. In fact in one those sites where they were found (3 of them) there were also 13 Urn burials! So actually they are Urnfield people, pre-Celtic. Some are more Western-like, but not Germanic, nor Celtic I guess, some were more Balkan-like.

    Also scy009 from Ukraine, there isn't anything "Scythian" about this find. Looks like some pre-Scythian local represented by R-Z280 who later mixed up with some other elements to create the proto-Slavs.

    As there aren't too many Pannonian-Carpathian finds, its good they tested these "Scythians" who are actually Urnfielders, Getae and pre-Slavs who were politically Scythians. Because many of them would have been cremated had they not become Scythian.

  25. #375
    Regular Member Aspar's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's not really a surprise, many of us predicted that most E-V13 subclades appeared in the southern Balkans mostly in LBA and EIA.
    What's interesting in the video is that when asked why Bulgaria is chosed by Reich and his team, Stamov answers that Harward thinks that the genesis of the Mycenaeans/Achaeans, the Troyans, the Hittites and other Anatolian Indo-European people happened on the territory of modern Bulgaria and from there it split and migrated to Greece and Anatolia.
    That's telling from linguist point of view as we know the closest language to Greek is the Armenian.
    I've been saying before that the proto-Greeks probably came from the direction of Bulgaria. It's not a surprise also when you try to model the Mycenaeans with G25, they require big chunk of Bulgarian Neolithic and Bulgarian EBA on top of Minoan. The only foreign element that the ancient Greeks will receive later on will be from Cetina culture and this will be connected with the north-western ancient Greeks AKA Dorians. This branch of J-M241 looks very Dorian and ancient Greek: J-FGC55768
    With a founder effect around 800 BCE during the Greek colonization of Southern Italy, it contains a Greek, a Sicilian from Messina(an ancient Dorian colony) and Aschkenazi Jews. One level upstream there is another Greek from Kozani, Macedonia which might very well turn an ancient Macedonian lineage.
    And there were so no E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria which again confirms what I thought and that is, the Mycenaeans and the Anatolians were pushed in Greece and Anatolia by a new population coming from direction of Pannonia and Croatia. A population which would give birth to to the Thracians. This is confirmed again with G25 because when modeling the IA Bulgaria, it doesn't require any EBA Bulgaria but needs something such as Croatia MBA or Hungary BA on top of Mycenaean like DNA. Which means that the Mycenaean like DNA was widespread all the way to Bulgaria before being diluted by the new migrants. These new migrants brought with them plenty of E-V13. Once again it goes hand in hand archaeologically as well. I wrote about this before that Vucedol elements survived South of lake Balaton in modern Hungary. From there mixed with new Indo-European element they will start invading the southern Balkans. Basically the proto-Greek and other proto-Anatolians were the product of Yamnaya while later Thracian, Dacian will be products of Corded-Ware or Bell Beaker element that will spread cremation burials in the Balkans. No wonder there was such a sharp difference between these languages although they bordered each other.

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