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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Nope. But I do suggest that if you ask the question: "which one of the three, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks might have had the strongest impact (biological/cultural) of E-V13 clades", then I would answer likely the Thracians..
    I absolutely second that. But the basic question remain: from were this EV-13 originated ? It is 'born' in Thrace and subsequently expand from there ? If so, from were the up-clade of EV-13 came from ? Because knowing that it would be easy to trace the entering path of E haplo into Europe from Afrika. Ultimately that's what I want MORE to know, because depending the route they took we can depict a whole ancient human 'character(istics)'. Did they took the shortest and easiest way across Mediterana ? Did they were scared of water or not ? Or did they took the a lot more harder and dangerous route via Middle East and Anatolia ?
    Last edited by LeoJ; 07-09-20 at 14:58.

  2. #427
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Albania



    According to eupedia Ligurians have 17.5% E1b1b, with most of it or all being E-V13. I know there was Greek colonization around this coast, but it's unlikely for them to contribute so much of percentage. This somehow convinces me that E-V13 was a mutation born around the Alps being pushed into Pannonia-Carpathian/Croatian coastline basin by the Bell Beakers.


  3. #428
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The other e1b1b1 viking
    A danish e-v13 viking
    VK362 (Bogøvej, Langeland Denmark_Bogovej LMR 12077 dated 950CE )
    was uploaded to yfull:
    https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y35953/
    Last edited by kingjohn; 20-09-20 at 14:31.
    known ancestery:
    Sefhardi/ aschenazi/ mizrahi/ bulgarian
    Eurogenes k13 updated closest:
    4.70345618 Greek_Andros_Island

    eurogenes k13 ancient closeset:
    4.86806943 R136_Lazio_Rome_italy_Late_Antiquity
    http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h3aa-av_genbank_sequences.htm

  4. #429
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    2 e-v13 remains from roman paper
    R107 and R1219:
    R107, Crypta Balbi, 400-600CE (Late Antiquity) - E-V13
    R1219, Cancelleria, 1417-1463CE (Renaissance) - E-V13

    Were uploaded to yfull
    Are now in progres
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38770*/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/
    Source paper:
    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

    P.s
    Now lets hope someone will upload the imperial roman R113 who belonged to e-v12
    And maybe also R53 the late medvieal who belonged to E-L19
    Last edited by kingjohn; 27-09-20 at 22:23.

  5. #430
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    Hi all, new member and am E-V13. Has academia figured out the history of E-V13 yet?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Very important for the whole debate is Pannonia and the recent results from a presentation of a study done on Hungarian remains showed just one single carrier of E for the whole period, but a total dominance of R1b, R1a and I. This means that in the early to middle Bronze Age, E-V13 was most likely only present at very low levels, presumably from a nearby centre. From the Balkans so far no post-steppe E-V13 was retrieved either before the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age. So going by the current evidence, we must assume that the E-V13 centre was therefore above the Balkan and Pannonian sphere, which leaves primarily the East Alpine or North Carpathian region as the best candidates.

    The problem of the East Alpine zone is that there was no large scale penetration of the Eastern and Southern Balkans from there, which would explain the later V13 centre in Thracians. The best source group is therefore a Southern Eastern Urnfield group, probably based in or around Slovakia, associated with the Gava horizon, being a formative element especially of the Thracians, but also for the Illyrians and Pannonians, secondarily for Greeks (primarily Dorians?) and Celts (Hallstatt infiltration with the spread of Iron metal work).

    Associated sites would be Teleac (destroyed fortification with early Iron production) and other Carpathian, Pannonian and Balkan settlements with early Iron production, like especially Hisar Hill:

    It is estimated that the metallurgy center in the settlement was operational at least between 1350 BC and 1100 BC and the remains have been found in the layer up to2 m (6 ft 7 in) thick. Iron ore, amorphous iron and vast amount of slag were discovered, but also remains of the grinding stones for crushing the ore (pogača), furnaces, charcoal piles, blowers and metal objects.
    Stojić hypothesizes that the development of metallurgy confirms the theory of the Dorian Invasion from the northern route. The discovery of iron and bronze objects from the 12th century BC, coincides with the invasion. The Dorians lived in the basin of the South Morava and the surrounding Central Balkans regions in the 13th century and, producing the iron weapons, with ease conquered the southern people in Greece.
    The Dorians are sometimes said to have had Thraco-Illyrian inflluences.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisar_Hill

    More about the Gava horizon on in the Carpatho-Balkan zone, especially with referene to Hisar:
    The Gava horizon, with channeled pottery, dated to a developed Late Bronze Age, was not documented in graves of the Brnjica group, but it certainly existed, as channeled pottery and typical bronzes from the Late Bronze Age, socketed axes, tweezers, pins etc., from the Hisar settlement testify.
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf3.pdf

    The best association is with the tribal movemen of the Thracians in the widest sense (Dacians and Getae included) and Illyrians, Dorians, plus a penetration via iron working specialists, traders and warriors in the Celtic sphere.

    One historical group very clearly associated with E-V13 would be the Thraco-Illyrian Triballi:
    Attachment 12377

    Going further back in time, the connection to the Urnfield horizon and Gava could be Lengyel and Sopot possibly, for which we have proof of E-L618.
    Lengyel pottery was found in western Hungary, the Czech and Slovak Republics, Austria, Poland, and in the Sopot culture of the northern parts of Former Yugoslavia. Influence in pottery styles is found even further afield, in parts of Germany and Switzerland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_culture

    The results of extensive investigations in Slovakia have shed considerable light on the problems of the emergence, development and cultural and chronological interconnections of the Neolithic Lengyel culture. This includes the economy and social structure of its bearers.

    Typological methods make it easy to demonstrate a local origin for the Lengyel culture, defining clearly its innovative component which was introduced from the south, from the sphere of the Vinča culture (Vinča B2/C1), then in the process of transformation, carried to the territory of the nascent Lengyel culture by the Sopot culture (S. Dimitrijevič 1968; Pavk 1981a; Kalicz 1988). The Lengyel culture emerged on the base of the eliezovce cultural group which gave birth to the earliest stage of the former culture Proto-Lengyel under impulses from and with participation of the Sopot culture. Such a fusion of local and foreign elements may well be demonstrated in pottery, especially in the development of its shapes and decoration. This process is accompanied by a major paradox: continuous development of pottery is contradicted by the discontinuity in settlement sites. Not a single site excavated either in Slovakia or in Hungary has yielded a settlement with material both from the last stage of the eliezovce group and from the early stages of the Lengyel culture (the Bňa-Bicske group, Luianky, Lengyel I) which could constitute evidence for local evolution.
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...8F405A1543B830

    The possible vector could have been Neolithic Anatolia -> Vinca -> Sopot -> Lengyel -> ??? -> Gava -> Bosut-Basarabi.

    Between Lengyel and Gava is a big gap on the one hand, but on the other, there could have been local continuity into the South Eastern Urnfield period, leading directly to Gava:
    http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/quality...ronze_Age.html

    This would bring E1b into the Urnfield horizon, probably even beyond Gava, but with it, being in the centre of the accumulation of V13. If that scenario would be true, it would be similar as with R1a, first moving out of the steppe, just to come back again. In the case of E1b just from the Balkans (Vinca) to the Carpathians and back again.

    Looking at the yDNA clades, the timing fits as well for a LBA-EIA expansion from one single centre. Very clear cases are E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. If you look where most of the spread and diversification of their subclades happened, its between 1.600 to 600 BC.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5017/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5018/

    For many of its subclades a date like 800-400 BC was the last point in time where highly diversified clades had a TMRCA, after that they spread out to very different regions of Europe and beyond.

    Anther clear case is https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/

    Being split into a basal Balkan branch, one Northern European and one Near Eastern. With more samples a trail will be found and more diversity, pointing again to the LBA-EIA original spread and most likely with Greeks into the Near East during Hellenistic times.

    In general, most clades under E-CTS1273 seem to repeat this pattern, at least it seems so to me, especially if considering the range of the estimates and some intermediate samples lacking, it just fits:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

    The time up to 2000 BC was like a hiatus, "nothing happened", new clades might have emerged, but they didn't split or distribute on a grander scale. Then between 2.000-300 BC, with a peak between 1.600-600 BC, "most of the action took place". This really implies to me, that the major lineages of E-V13 lived together in one place up to about 2.000 BC, and dispersed on a grand scale in time from Urnfield to Hallstatt.

    Another aspect of this is that this big "jumps", huge distances between samples from one clade also date, for the most part, to this time frame. Its not from before or later as much, like from Roman or late historical times. Of course, such tribal and individual migrations did occur, but most of the spread and splits date to the LBA-EIA.

    Decisive is that Pannonia and the later Illyrian zone seems to have been largely free of any significant portion of E-V13 by the Early to Middle Bronze Age. Without an association of Urnfield with the E-V13 expansion and frequency in the pre-Roman and Roman Iron Age, that pattern is almost impossible to explain, unless we assume a large scale infiltration almost exclusively in Roman times. Much more likely is that the former core zone of Illyrian and Thracian was to the North, associated with the Southern Urnfield horizon, and spread along pretty much the same pathways as the later (Southern) Slavs did, through Pannonia and around the Carpathians, down to the Balkans. In Pannonia most of the E-V13 was later replaced by the various migrations from the steppe, the Germanics and Slavs, in the more mountainous regions of the Balkans it could largely keep its position, even though its numbers seem to have been reduced there as well, with some exceptions.

    Once we get LBA and EIA samples, which at times can be hard, because of the use of cremation for the burial rite, we will see for sure. But what else can be deduced from the fact that before Urnfield the region had practically zero E-V13 and was dominated by R1b, R1a and I, but after the Urnfield expansion and the Gava horizon the whole region was packed with E-V13? And looking at sites like Teleac, the best associated is with Iron working specialists (Hallstatt penetration!) and tribes evading Northern pressure, moving down to evade it. Somewhere around Slovakia and the Northern Carpathian region might be a good place to search for E-V13. Also interesting that some early Slavs seem to have had sister clades of V13, like the Viking sample with E-L791 from Gotland.

  7. #432
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    Very important for the whole debate is Pannonia and the recent results from a presentation of a study done on Hungarian remains showed just one single carrier of E for the whole period, but a total dominance of R1b, R1a and I. This means that in the early to middle Bronze Age, E-V13 was most likely only present at very low levels, presumably from a nearby centre. From the Balkans so far no post-steppe E-V13 was retrieved either before the Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age. So going by the current evidence, we must assume that the E-V13 centre was therefore above the Balkan and Pannonian sphere, which leaves primarily the East Alpine or North Carpathian region as the best candidates.

    The problem of the East Alpine zone is that there was no large scale penetration of the Eastern and Southern Balkans from there, which would explain the later V13 centre in Thracians. The best source group is therefore a Southern Eastern Urnfield group, probably based in or around Slovakia, associated with the Gava horizon, being a formative element especially of the Thracians, but also for the Illyrians and Pannonians, secondarily for Greeks (primarily Dorians?) and Celts (Hallstatt infiltration with the spread of Iron metal work).

    Associated sites would be Teleac (destroyed fortification with early Iron production) and other Carpathian, Pannonian and Balkan settlements with early Iron production, like especially Hisar Hill:

    It is estimated that the metallurgy center in the settlement was operational at least between 1350 BC and 1100 BC and the remains have been found in the layer up to2 m (6 ft 7 in) thick. Iron ore, amorphous iron and vast amount of slag were discovered, but also remains of the grinding stones for crushing the ore (pogača), furnaces, charcoal piles, blowers and metal objects.
    Stojić hypothesizes that the development of metallurgy confirms the theory of the Dorian Invasion from the northern route. The discovery of iron and bronze objects from the 12th century BC, coincides with the invasion. The Dorians lived in the basin of the South Morava and the surrounding Central Balkans regions in the 13th century and, producing the iron weapons, with ease conquered the southern people in Greece.
    The Dorians are sometimes said to have had Thraco-Illyrian inflluences.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisar_Hill

    More about the Gava horizon on in the Carpatho-Balkan zone, especially with referene to Hisar:
    The Gava horizon, with channeled pottery, dated to a developed Late Bronze Age, was not documented in graves of the Brnjica group, but it certainly existed, as channeled pottery and typical bronzes from the Late Bronze Age, socketed axes, tweezers, pins etc., from the Hisar settlement testify.
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf3.pdf

    The best association is with the tribal movemen of the Thracians in the widest sense (Dacians and Getae included) and Illyrians, Dorians, plus a penetration via iron working specialists, traders and warriors in the Celtic sphere.

    One historical group very clearly associated with E-V13 would be the Thraco-Illyrian Triballi:
    Attachment 12377

    Going further back in time, the connection to the Urnfield horizon and Gava could be Lengyel and Sopot possibly, for which we have proof of E-L618.
    Lengyel pottery was found in western Hungary, the Czech and Slovak Republics, Austria, Poland, and in the Sopot culture of the northern parts of Former Yugoslavia. Influence in pottery styles is found even further afield, in parts of Germany and Switzerland.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_culture

    The results of extensive investigations in Slovakia have shed considerable light on the problems of the emergence, development and cultural and chronological interconnections of the Neolithic Lengyel culture. This includes the economy and social structure of its bearers.

    Typological methods make it easy to demonstrate a local origin for the Lengyel culture, defining clearly its innovative component which was introduced from the south, from the sphere of the Vinča culture (Vinča B2/C1), then in the process of transformation, carried to the territory of the nascent Lengyel culture by the Sopot culture (S. Dimitrijevič 1968; Pavk 1981a; Kalicz 1988). The Lengyel culture emerged on the base of the eliezovce cultural group which gave birth to the earliest stage of the former culture Proto-Lengyel under impulses from and with participation of the Sopot culture. Such a fusion of local and foreign elements may well be demonstrated in pottery, especially in the development of its shapes and decoration. This process is accompanied by a major paradox: continuous development of pottery is contradicted by the discontinuity in settlement sites. Not a single site excavated either in Slovakia or in Hungary has yielded a settlement with material both from the last stage of the eliezovce group and from the early stages of the Lengyel culture (the Bňa-Bicske group, Luianky, Lengyel I) which could constitute evidence for local evolution.
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...8F405A1543B830

    The possible vector could have been Neolithic Anatolia -> Vinca -> Sopot -> Lengyel -> ??? -> Gava -> Bosut-Basarabi.

    Between Lengyel and Gava is a big gap on the one hand, but on the other, there could have been local continuity into the South Eastern Urnfield period, leading directly to Gava:
    http://www.angelfire.com/sk3/quality...ronze_Age.html

    This would bring E1b into the Urnfield horizon, probably even beyond Gava, but with it, being in the centre of the accumulation of V13. If that scenario would be true, it would be similar as with R1a, first moving out of the steppe, just to come back again. In the case of E1b just from the Balkans (Vinca) to the Carpathians and back again.

    Looking at the yDNA clades, the timing fits as well for a LBA-EIA expansion from one single centre. Very clear cases are E-Z5017 and E-Z5018. If you look where most of the spread and diversification of their subclades happened, its between 1.600 to 600 BC.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5017/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5018/

    For many of its subclades a date like 800-400 BC was the last point in time where highly diversified clades had a TMRCA, after that they spread out to very different regions of Europe and beyond.

    Anther clear case is https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/

    Being split into a basal Balkan branch, one Northern European and one Near Eastern. With more samples a trail will be found and more diversity, pointing again to the LBA-EIA original spread and most likely with Greeks into the Near East during Hellenistic times.

    In general, most clades under E-CTS1273 seem to repeat this pattern, at least it seems so to me, especially if considering the range of the estimates and some intermediate samples lacking, it just fits:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

    The time up to 2000 BC was like a hiatus, "nothing happened", new clades might have emerged, but they didn't split or distribute on a grander scale. Then between 2.000-300 BC, with a peak between 1.600-600 BC, "most of the action took place". This really implies to me, that the major lineages of E-V13 lived together in one place up to about 2.000 BC, and dispersed on a grand scale in time from Urnfield to Hallstatt.

    Another aspect of this is that this big "jumps", huge distances between samples from one clade also date, for the most part, to this time frame. Its not from before or later as much, like from Roman or late historical times. Of course, such tribal and individual migrations did occur, but most of the spread and splits date to the LBA-EIA.

    Decisive is that Pannonia and the later Illyrian zone seems to have been largely free of any significant portion of E-V13 by the Early to Middle Bronze Age. Without an association of Urnfield with the E-V13 expansion and frequency in the pre-Roman and Roman Iron Age, that pattern is almost impossible to explain, unless we assume a large scale infiltration almost exclusively in Roman times. Much more likely is that the former core zone of Illyrian and Thracian was to the North, associated with the Southern Urnfield horizon, and spread along pretty much the same pathways as the later (Southern) Slavs did, through Pannonia and around the Carpathians, down to the Balkans. In Pannonia most of the E-V13 was later replaced by the various migrations from the steppe, the Germanics and Slavs, in the more mountainous regions of the Balkans it could largely keep its position, even though its numbers seem to have been reduced there as well, with some exceptions.

    Once we get LBA and EIA samples, which at times can be hard, because of the use of cremation for the burial rite, we will see for sure. But what else can be deduced from the fact that before Urnfield the region had practically zero E-V13 and was dominated by R1b, R1a and I, but after the Urnfield expansion and the Gava horizon the whole region was packed with E-V13? And looking at sites like Teleac, the best associated is with Iron working specialists (Hallstatt penetration!) and tribes evading Northern pressure, moving down to evade it. Somewhere around Slovakia and the Northern Carpathian region might be a good place to search for E-V13. Also interesting that some early Slavs seem to have had sister clades of V13, like the Viking sample with E-L791 from Gotland.

  8. #433
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    I came to the conclusion that the most likely origin point for E-V13 is the North Carpathian zone and that it spread with Southern Urnfield groups, especially the Gava horizon. That's for now the most likely explanation.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by xlukex View Post
    Wait, I just kinda jumped in here, but how do you know the Lengyel and Sopot samples are negative for E-V13?
    E-V13 is one of the descending branches of E-L618.
    Lengyel and Sopot are indeed the most likely path of E-V13 to the North, where it stayed and survived in the North Carpathian region. We have related clades in Slavs now, and a spread which postdates the Middle Bronze Age into Pannonia and the Southern Balkans. So the most likely candidate which remains, which affected especially Thracians and Illyrians the most, is the South Eastern Urnfield groups, especially the Gava horizon. And the spread is best associated with early iron technology, with sites like Teleac being of great importance. After the Urnfield expansons, suddenly you have such high rates of E-V13 in Thraco-Illyrians, with influences reaching beyond, especially into Celts, Dorians, possibly also Italics and Germanics, we'll see, but primarily Thracians and Illyrians. And the best connection you have, also by the TMRCA of the V13 clades, is LBA-EIA, best associated with Urnfield.

  10. #435
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    prebislav anlaysed it belonged to E-L540 :


    paper source:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.20.106971v1



    and someone uploaded it to yfull


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
    Last edited by kingjohn; 07-11-20 at 18:57.

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    Some additional information on the expansion of Thraco-Illyrian and the Gava culture with the Urnfield horizon:
    https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...ianBalkans.htm

    Good map for the illustration:
    https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/image...200BC_full.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Lengyel and Sopot are indeed the most likely path of E-V13 to the North, where it stayed and survived in the North Carpathian region. We have related clades in Slavs now, and a spread which postdates the Middle Bronze Age into Pannonia and the Southern Balkans. So the most likely candidate which remains, which affected especially Thracians and Illyrians the most, is the South Eastern Urnfield groups, especially the Gava horizon. And the spread is best associated with early iron technology, with sites like Teleac being of great importance. After the Urnfield expansons, suddenly you have such high rates of E-V13 in Thraco-Illyrians, with influences reaching beyond, especially into Celts, Dorians, possibly also Italics and Germanics, we'll see, but primarily Thracians and Illyrians. And the best connection you have, also by the TMRCA of the V13 clades, is LBA-EIA, best associated with Urnfield.
    I think genetiker analyzed Lengyel and Sopot and they were negative to E-V13: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1900/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I think genetiker analyzed Lengyel and Sopot and they were negative to E-V13:
    Genetiker says it got tested as L618, a parent lineage of E-V13, meaning if it got tested further downstream then it could very well be E-V13.

    I really think there were likely multiple pulses for the spread of E-V13 now, starting at least by the Neolithic. However, by far the largest and most recent pulse may have likely took place during the Urnfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I think genetiker analyzed Lengyel and Sopot and they were negative to E-V13: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1900/
    We seem to have a quite varied bunch of E1b1b entering Europe, so the presence of its ancestor alone is very informative, considering the timing. The chances for survival of related branches in the West are much worse and in the South not much better, again considering the recent results from Pannonia and the Balkans. So most important about Lengyel and Sopot is that it offers and early pathway for the expansion. Obviously most of the E1b1b lineages they brought either didn't survive or not doing as well as E-V13, but they brought it into a position which could be connected, quite directly, with the much later South Eastern Urnfield groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We seem to have a quite varied bunch of E1b1b entering Europe, so the presence of its ancestor alone is very informative, considering the timing. The chances for survival of related branches in the West are much worse and in the South not much better, again considering the recent results from Pannonia and the Balkans. So most important about Lengyel and Sopot is that it offers and early pathway for the expansion. Obviously most of the E1b1b lineages they brought either didn't survive or not doing as well as E-V13, but they brought it into a position which could be connected, quite directly, with the much later South Eastern Urnfield groups.
    If they were the pioneers of cremation, then the absence of E-V13 among ancient samples would make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If they were the pioneers of cremation, then the absence of E-V13 among ancient samples would make sense.
    Its very bad that in this crucial period of European prehistory, when most large historical ethnic formation were formed (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Illyrian, Thracian etc.), cremation was so widespread. It really hurts the research and even more so in the region I have in mind, because it actually seems they were indeed the pioneers and even spreaders of cremation. It has a long tradition in the Carpathian region in the widest sense. However exactly the change took place, the Urnfield phenomenon and early iron working form the Carpathians are the two most safely E-V13 related cultural shifts.

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    from plovdiv

    Country: Uruguay



    https://www.scribd.com/document/3680...e-West-Balkans


    P.s
    I wish there was such an informative paper
    For e-m123 and his sub -branches

  19. #444
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-02-18
    Location
    Nyírbátor, Szabolcs county
    Posts
    115

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    In 2017, we were only three on the Z17107 tree. A croatian, an albanian and me, a hungarian. And now we are 20. My big favorite was Raf’s study, but he has had to rewrite it since then due to a lot of recent data.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

  20. #445
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,799

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    According to eupedia Ligurians have 17.5% E1b1b, with most of it or all being E-V13. I know there was Greek colonization around this coast, but it's unlikely for them to contribute so much of percentage. This somehow convinces me that E-V13 was a mutation born around the Alps being pushed into Pannonia-Carpathian/Croatian coastline basin by the Bell Beakers.


    This means nothing,

    The percentage of population does not mean that mutation happen there,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  21. #446
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    66


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    This means nothing,

    The percentage of population does not mean that mutation happen there,
    No but it means a significant amount settled there at one point in time

  22. #447
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,799

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    No but it means a significant amount settled there at one point in time
    You spoke about Alps.

  23. #448
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    15-11-19
    Posts
    35


    Country: Romania



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I came to the conclusion that the most likely origin point for E-V13 is the North Carpathian zone and that it spread with Southern Urnfield groups, especially the Gava horizon. That's for now the most likely explanation.
    I also second this without any doubt. I always think EV 13 were moving North-South and not like many others believing viceversa. But I'm still confused how the hell E arrived to this North carpathian zone from it's NE Afrika origin ? And without any considerable impact in Europe till EV 13 appearance !?

  24. #449
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-04-10
    Posts
    339


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by LeoJ View Post
    I also second this without any doubt. I always think EV 13 were moving North-South and not like many others believing viceversa. But I'm still confused how the hell E arrived to this North carpathian zone from it's NE Afrika origin ? And without any considerable impact in Europe till EV 13 appearance !?

    How did I1 arrive to the area from which is started expansion? It was somewhere in North Germany or Denmark. It was not always there.

    My point is, it is common that haplogroups expanded from regions which are not directly connected to regions rich with closely related haplogroups.

  25. #450
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-11-18
    Posts
    66


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by LeoJ View Post
    I also second this without any doubt. I always think EV 13 were moving North-South and not like many others believing viceversa. But I'm still confused how the hell E arrived to this North carpathian zone from it's NE Afrika origin ? And without any considerable impact in Europe till EV 13 appearance !?
    What are the chances that i1 spread alongside v13 in Balkans/South Europe?

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