Where did E-V13 originate ?

[Henrique]

I think it was somewhere between North Africa and the Middle East.

 

[kingjohn]

here is an ancient sample
of e-v13 branch that yfull finaly put ( there are many others who are much more ancient but they didn't put them )
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/

p.s
i hope e-v13 members here can shed some light on it
it is hungarian ( magyar period ) ????

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

here is an ancient sample
of e-v13 branch that yfull finaly put ( there are many others who are much more ancient but they didn't put them )
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y58870/

p.s
i hope e-v13 members here can shed some light on it
it is hungarian ( magyar period ) ????

That isn't really ancient, what is the earliest v13 we have in europe?

V13 is quite low today in Hungarians, it gets bigger the more south/west we go from there

 

[Aspurg]

That isn't really ancient, what is the earliest v13 we have in europe?

Search for yourself instead of asking stupid questions that have been answered.

 

[Hawk]

Search for yourself instead of asking stupid questions that have been answered.

Based on the questions he posed in the other threads, i can think that he is J2b2 and he hates the fact E-V13 is widespread in the Balkans. He gives me that impression.

 

[Aspurg]

Based on the questions he posed in the other threads, i can think that he is J2b2 and he hates the fact E-V13 is widespread in the Balkans. He gives me that impression.

I think we have seen this guy plenty of times before.. Did he do a Y-DNA test in the meantime and found out he is J2b2?? :grin:

 

[Hawk]

I think we have seen this guy plenty of times before.. Did he do a Y-DNA test in the meantime and found out he is J2b2?? :grin:

I don't know, but likely yes. He can be of that low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2 (some of them to be honest not all), who fantasize of being some sort of elite Kurgan warriors and E-V13 are Zoomalis.

 

[kingjohn]

That isn't really ancient, what is the earliest v13 we have in europe?
V13 is quite low today in Hungarians, it gets bigger the more south/west we go from there

I know man !!!
I think the most ancient e-v13 is from 5000 bc
Cataloonia spain.

P.s
what can i do that y full not willing to except the real ancient individuls
Even my clade e-m34
i sent email to yfull
And gave them list of e- m34 and his branches
From ancient dna papers with link...
They say it doesnt fit there requirements...
Go figure.... :wary2:
I guess they need the ancient samples from the lab to get to the final branch mutation

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Based on the questions he posed in the other threads, i can think that he is J2b2 and he hates the fact E-V13 is widespread in the Balkans. He gives me that impression.

Haha no, I'm just trying to understand what has happened throughout history

J2b L283 seems more mysterious, along with some balkan r1b these seem like a group who refused to accept other "cultures" and lived isolated in mountains for a long time

 

[Hawk]

Haha no, I'm just trying to understand what has happened throughout history
J2b L283 seems more mysterious, along with some balkan r1b these seem like a group who refused to accept other "cultures" and lived isolated in mountains for a long time

Yes Captain Obvious, i can see right through you where you want to throw the stone, and E-V13 accepted the "others" culture. That's why you guys are so eager to classify every E-V13-er in the Balkans as Albanian.

 

[angeleyes2]

This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?

From Natufian farmers?

 

[kmak]

From Natufian farmers?

I think they are.

 

[Hawk]

It looks like most of EIA Thracians from around the region of Svilengrad (Southern Bulgaria) were E-V13, while EBA was dominated by R1b1a2. Weird.

 

[Vlad82]

It looks like most of EIA Thracians from around the region of Svilengrad (Southern Bulgaria) were E-V13, while EBA was dominated by R1b1a2. Weird.

It is not easy to read haplogroups in video because it is like in mirror.
[FONT=&quot]Bulgaria EBA:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b1a2a[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]r1b1a1b[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]R1b1a1b1a1

[/FONT]As I remember in previous interview two R1a-Z93 were mentioned from EBA.

[FONT=&quot]Bulgaria EIA:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E1b1b1a1b1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]E1b1b1a1b1a

Early Bulgarian:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Q1a2a[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Aspurg]

Looks like only E-V13 lived in Thrace since the Iron Age based on these results!! Not only two near Slivengrad but also one "E" in Late Iron Age, and also one E-V13 in LA - "Late Antiquity"... We also had one E, slightly above V13 from Thrace years ago (he is V13 too fc, I think some confirmed it).. This is a really telling sign, you jump the eras and E-V13 comes out first...

Regarding the EBA, it depends what "EBA" means, some E-V13 clades suggest an expansion in Bulgarian regions rather in Late EBA, not in Early EBA. However the most numerous E-V13 clades have LBA, EIA TMRCA.

Ofc I knew that in advance based on E-V13 diversity. And unlike Serbs and Albanians, half of Bulgarian population is not descended from 10-15 individuals who lived in the Medieval times, so they are lot more heterogeneous..

EIA, LIA, LA - Thrace E-V13 ownage. To have E-V13 pop out as no.1 in all eras is a clear sign Thracians had up to 50 % or more of E-V13.. :cool-v: Just as the coming Viminatium LA results will show for the Moesian areas..

All of you E-V13 = Illyrian just got blown to bits. I never supported that for my hg's sake, E-V13 originally came from the Western Balkans, to have them as locals there means as Albanian admin Skerdilaid/Leki put it originally they were "just farmers who accepted Illyrian culture". The problem is, it is clearly a BA haplogroup, and not Neolithic hg.. So they won't be just some "farmers doing their farming and eagerly accepting being owned"..

 

[Hawk]

Albanians have diversity of E-V13 Z5018 subclades starting from MBA, and the lack of E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria makes me think rather a spread from Pannonian-Carpathian basin. Much probably the original Urnfield Illyrians had E-V13 too in a combination with Bell Beaker R1b clades, i expect Ancient Macedonians and Dorians to show E-V13 percentages as well.

 

[Aspurg]

Albanians have diversity of E-V13 Z5018 subclades starting from MBA, and the lack of E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria makes me think rather a spread from Pannonian-Carpathian basin. Much probably the original Urnfield Illyrians had E-V13 too in a combination with Bell Beaker R1b clades, i expect Ancient Macedonians and Dorians to show E-V13 percentages as well.

Lack of V13 in EBA Bulgaria as I've said is not indicative of anything unless they have samples from the late EBA (2000 BC, 2800 BC is not of much relevance to V13). Actually archaeologically in Bulgaria during the Bronze Age there wasn't too much, all agree that Thracians were formed in the Early Iron Age by a series of cultures..

Albanians have high diversity of Z5018 but Bulgarians have as high/higher diversity of Z5018, especially some clades. Generally they are LBA/EIA distance which suggests Late Bronze Age collapse/Urnfield..

I don't disagree that Urnfield groups had plenty of E-V13. But the point is people like Thracians were too part of Urnfield, Thracians practiced cremation. Dacians proper were quite an Urnfield people in most respects etc.

About Illyrians, most say more typical of them was inhumation, in essence all those Illyrian cultures which practiced inhumation had clear connections with the pre-Unrfield Illyrian spectrum, and with that J-L283 find. So no doubt J-L283 has little to do with the Urnfield, they were the newcomers in 2000 BC. Some E-V13's were likely there living with them (such as those older PH1246's).

Among Illyrians you had Glasinac-Mati complex which was archaeologically directly connected to that J-L283 find. And the second part were these Urnfield related migrations. Not all of them are necessarily Urnfield proper, but they are related to Urnfield.

The unknown thing is the language, which group brought the Illyrian language, but in that respect they were divided along the Glasinac-Urnfield line.

 

[Hawk]

You can't get closer to Eastern Urnfielders than Classical Illyrians. So, we should expect several different groups during LBA in Balkans.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Southeastern_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1][2]
Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.

This is not within the scope of the thread, but L283 might have been around Austria 4+kya before branching into the Balkans and Italy. Nuragic/Etruscan - MBA Croatia/Mokrin Serbia (if confirmed). This is just a wild theory I thought of. There is of course more consensus that it could have spread from the Balkans on a maritime route to Italy around that period.

 

[Trojet]

Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Southeastern_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.^[1][2]
Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.

Exactly. There is no hard evidence for such claims. It's just one theory, which is being pushed by certain south Slavs to make Illyrian as "late comers" as possible. I think it's also inspired by the fact that the most dominant haplogroups found among Albanians (example J-L283, and very likely R-PF7563, R-Z2103, E-V13) predate the "Urnfield movements" in the Balkans.

The alternative theory below is taken from: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

"Older Pan-Illyrian theories which emerged in the 1920s placed the proto-Illyrians as the original inhabitants of a very large area which reached central Europe. These theories, which are now generally dismissed by scholars, were used in the political of the era and its racialistic notions of Nordicism and Aryanism.[23] The main fact which these theories tried to address was the existence of traces of Illyrian toponymy in parts of Europe beyond the western Balkans, an issue whose origins are still unclear[31] The specific theories have found little archaeological corroboration, as no convincing evidence for significant migratory movements from the Luzatian culture into the west Balkans have ever been found.[32][33] Rather, archaeologists from former Yugoslavia highlighted the continuity between the Bronze and succeeding Iron Age (especially in regions such as Donja Dolina, central Bosnia-Glasinac, and northern Albania (Mat river basin)), ultimately developing the so-called "autochthonous theory" of Illyrian genesis.[33] The "autochthonous" model was most elaborated upon by Alojz Benac and B. Čović. They argued (following the "Kurgan hypothesis") that the 'proto-Illyrians' had arrived much earlier, during the Bronze Age as nomadic Indo-Europeans from the steppe. From that point, there was a gradual Illyrianization of the western Balkans leading to historic Illyrians, with no early Iron Age migration from northern Europe."

Based on what we know so far, I would lean towards the above statements.

Not denying that Urnfield couldn't have had any impact among Illyrians either, but I think it would be premature to say the least that Illyrians are mainly descended by them (whether linguistically or genetically).