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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    As for the rest I will not bother to comment what I have never claimed. It's your claim of something you believe that I believe...
    I said about this individual (Aspurg) that he concludes something one just argues or gives supposition about I supposed that E-V13 might have moved to some extent to South East Europe from late Vinca Culture, to some extent where it might have came from others regions as well to south East Europe. He concluded for me that E-V13 spread fully from Vinca

    He thinks that just because he reads books and not wikipedia (as he mentioned) that he can outsmart everyone, or either thinks he is the smartest one here, you can still read shitty books or only books that fits your agenda, but doesn't make you smarter than others or even a scientist

    Definitely a funny individual, personally I think he is not transparent (like say Maciamo is), mostly one sided and clearly not even close to being called as Scientist

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoJ View Post
    I also second this without any doubt. I always think EV 13 were moving North-South and not like many others believing viceversa. But I'm still confused how the hell E arrived to this North carpathian zone from it's NE Afrika origin ? And without any considerable impact in Europe till EV 13 appearance !?
    Many haplogroups wandered in circles, E-V13 is no exception, but the rule. If you check where the majority of any given haplogroup was sitting in different eras, you will see that a lot moved quite a bit.

    As a starter, we don't know for sure where haplogroup E, haplogroup E1b started, we also don't know how various haplotypes of E1b1b entered Europe, we just don't. We can say which options are still left, but we don't know for sure.

    My current position goes like that:
    - Haplogroup E was born in the Nile Valley or Near East.
    - E1b1b was born in the Nile Valley or Near East - this can be the same place as E, or a different, we don't know.
    - E1b1b moved up the Levante, we can find it among Natufians and entered the gene pool of the early Anatolian farmers
    - The ancestor of E-V13 entered Europe with early Neolithics (E-L618 or even E-Z1919)
    - E-L618 spread with other haplotypes of E1b1b in Europe among Neolithics, in Vinca, Cardial-Impresso Ware, Michelsberger, Lengyel-Sopot.
    - Various descendents survived the expansion of the steppe people, with a possible centre in the Northern Carpathians, derived from Lengyel-Sopot - among them surviving clades of E-V13. They became largely Indo-Europeanised and began to spread beyond their homeland, in which they were reknowed miners and smiths, which was part of their pathway to survival and later success
    - At the LBA-EIA transition, they spread out big time within the Urnfield-cremation horizon. Many clans and individuals move with new mining and metal processing technologies, as well as new tools, weapons, fighting styles and religious-ideological motifs to the North and West, but the bulk moves down, to the South, into the Southern Carpathians, Pannonia, the Balkan and beyond - some might even be associated with Sea People.

    Part of this was exploiting the technological advantage, but another one was the pressure from the North and especially the East, because new steppe people entered the scene with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Which created in the East, the mixture of the Fluted Ware/Gava and other Urnfield related people with a new steppe influx, the Daco-Thracian people, which were, without a doubt, the people with the highest frequency of E-V13.

    But these same influences from the Southern and South Eastern Urnfield groups made it also to Italy, Noricum, Pannonia, Greece, the Balkans in general and even beyond, to Anatolia and the Near East. So really crucial is the Bronze Age to early Iron Age transition. If you look at the most important splits, between different regional subclades, they all happened before, between the LBA and EIA. There are practically no big splits, lets say Britain : Balkan or Scandinavia : Near East dating to a later, to a Roman Age and historical period. Such splits don't matter, almost all of the wide geographical distribution happened before the Roman Iron Age!

    This is a clear indicator for what took place, and that many E-V13 clans from the Carpathians participated in migrations to the West, with Celts, or even with Germanics and Slavs afterwards, like E-L540. There is absolutely no way to explain the distribution by a more recent, historical time South -> North migration. Even most of the widespread Balkan clades date no earlier than to the LBA-EIA transition, and some are actually younger, pointing to a more recent, especially Celtic North -> South migration.

    So any South -> North migration would have to have happened before the Middle Bronze Age, but there was none, Pannonia seems to have had little to no E-V13 originally, the Balkan too, Greece as well. So chances are, by now, bigger that probably the ancestor of E-V13 moved up to Central Europe/the North Carpathians with Lengyel-Sopot, survived there, all the turmoil, and came back as a successful lineage with new innovations, like new techniques in mining, metal processing, new types of swords and military tactics, increased usage of horse and chariot etc. We also have, in the North Carpathians, huge settlements like Teleac, with some of the most advanced metal technologies at that time, which came under pressure from the relative North and East (steppe) later. So they had a two part incentive for a big push to the South and a diaspora to the East.

    In the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, these two elements, Central European Urnfield and new steppe (Cimmerian-Scythian) fused and later produced the Hallstatt culture.

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    There was a climate change during Late Bronze Age in Central Europe, a rainfall which caused great famine and probably triggering these migrations toward Balkans, they were looking for a new home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Many haplogroups wandered in circles, E-V13 is no exception, but the rule. If you check where the majority of any given haplogroup was sitting in different eras, you will see that a lot moved quite a bit.

    As a starter, we don't know for sure where haplogroup E, haplogroup E1b started, we also don't know how various haplotypes of E1b1b entered Europe, we just don't. We can say which options are still left, but we don't know for sure.

    My current position goes like that:
    - Haplogroup E was born in the Nile Valley or Near East.
    - E1b1b was born in the Nile Valley or Near East - this can be the same place as E, or a different, we don't know.
    - E1b1b moved up the Levante, we can find it among Natufians and entered the gene pool of the early Anatolian farmers
    - The ancestor of E-V13 entered Europe with early Neolithics (E-L618 or even E-Z1919)
    - E-L618 spread with other haplotypes of E1b1b in Europe among Neolithics, in Vinca, Cardial-Impresso Ware, Michelsberger, Lengyel-Sopot.
    - Various descendents survived the expansion of the steppe people, with a possible centre in the Northern Carpathians, derived from Lengyel-Sopot - among them surviving clades of E-V13. They became largely Indo-Europeanised and began to spread beyond their homeland, in which they were reknowed miners and smiths, which was part of their pathway to survival and later success
    - At the LBA-EIA transition, they spread out big time within the Urnfield-cremation horizon. Many clans and individuals move with new mining and metal processing technologies, as well as new tools, weapons, fighting styles and religious-ideological motifs to the North and West, but the bulk moves down, to the South, into the Southern Carpathians, Pannonia, the Balkan and beyond - some might even be associated with Sea People.

    Part of this was exploiting the technological advantage, but another one was the pressure from the North and especially the East, because new steppe people entered the scene with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Which created in the East, the mixture of the Fluted Ware/Gava and other Urnfield related people with a new steppe influx, the Daco-Thracian people, which were, without a doubt, the people with the highest frequency of E-V13.

    But these same influences from the Southern and South Eastern Urnfield groups made it also to Italy, Noricum, Pannonia, Greece, the Balkans in general and even beyond, to Anatolia and the Near East. So really crucial is the Bronze Age to early Iron Age transition. If you look at the most important splits, between different regional subclades, they all happened before, between the LBA and EIA. There are practically no big splits, lets say Britain : Balkan or Scandinavia : Near East dating to a later, to a Roman Age and historical period. Such splits don't matter, almost all of the wide geographical distribution happened before the Roman Iron Age!

    This is a clear indicator for what took place, and that many E-V13 clans from the Carpathians participated in migrations to the West, with Celts, or even with Germanics and Slavs afterwards, like E-L540. There is absolutely no way to explain the distribution by a more recent, historical time South -> North migration. Even most of the widespread Balkan clades date no earlier than to the LBA-EIA transition, and some are actually younger, pointing to a more recent, especially Celtic North -> South migration.

    So any South -> North migration would have to have happened before the Middle Bronze Age, but there was none, Pannonia seems to have had little to no E-V13 originally, the Balkan too, Greece as well. So chances are, by now, bigger that probably the ancestor of E-V13 moved up to Central Europe/the North Carpathians with Lengyel-Sopot, survived there, all the turmoil, and came back as a successful lineage with new innovations, like new techniques in mining, metal processing, new types of swords and military tactics, increased usage of horse and chariot etc. We also have, in the North Carpathians, huge settlements like Teleac, with some of the most advanced metal technologies at that time, which came under pressure from the relative North and East (steppe) later. So they had a two part incentive for a big push to the South and a diaspora to the East.

    In the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, these two elements, Central European Urnfield and new steppe (Cimmerian-Scythian) fused and later produced the Hallstatt culture.
    This is wrong, if v13 was a minor lineage amongst integrated central European civilization then how is it a major balkan y dna today? They either were the major civilization in Central Europe OR were enemies with whoever was

    Which y dna did it dwell amongst in Central Europe and how did it outnumber it today in the balkans, that is the question. Lack of old v13 found is due to lack of research and maybe due to cremation

    As for daco-thracian it is impossible to suggest which tribe most v13 belonged to as of now, thracian, illyrian, urnfield, pelasgians (if these even existed) etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    This is wrong, if v13 was a minor lineage amongst integrated central European civilization then how is it a major balkan y dna today? They either were the major civilization in Central Europe OR were enemies with whoever was
    Which y dna did it dwell amongst in Central Europe and how did it outnumber it today in the balkans, that is the question.
    If my hypothesis is correct, we still don't know which percentage E-V13 had among other Urnfield related groups, like for example Lusatian. The reason why E-V13 seems to have been a minority to the West and became dominant in the Balkans however is quite clear, because to the West larger groups, to the North some, to the East some moved, but the bulk seems to have moved into Pannonia and along the Eastern Carpathians, from there down to the Balkans, with the most important group being Thracians. Actually the spread mimics that of Slavs many centuries later. So Thracians just got the most of it and seem to have spread it as one of their dominant lineages.

    The Urnfield phenomenon was a multi-ethnic religious-ideological-technological movement. It was majority wise IE, but not even that is for sure in all its provinces. So the divisions within it are of importance and its not necessary to assume that the lineage which was dominated in one group, like let's say Gava/Fluted Ware, was so in all groups to the Western provinces, where para-Celtic tongues might have been spoken.

    Lack of old v13 found is due to lack of research and maybe due to cremation
    As for daco-thracian it is impossible to suggest which tribe most v13 belonged to as of now, thracian, illyrian, urnfield, pelasgians (if these even existed) etc.
    Don't think so for two reason:
    - Many historical and modern centres of E-V13 were Thracian dominated, including the Triballi for example.
    - We already have Iron Age Thracian remains with V13.

    So its the best we have so far and I think there is no way around Daco-Thracian being at least one of the major spreaders. Illyrians on the other hand seem to have been more diversified and at least the Dalmatian and Southern tribes seem to have been more J2-heavy probably, though the latest word is not spoken yet.

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    are we making V-13 IE?
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    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    If Southern Illyrians were J2b2 dominated then you have to explain the relatively low J2b2 among Southern Albanians. The truth is we don't know for sure yet, it's weird since archeologically i have read two opposing opinions, people thinking Thracians were already formed by 1500 B.C and other thinking they were descended from Gava Culture.

    The other weird things are the Messapians who are considered Illyrian, Albanians and Thracians having a common word for horse, manz/maz.

    Whatever the percentages were, we shall find out soon i guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    are we making V-13 IE?
    Indo-European being like a club, lineages joined at different times. E-V13 was, probably, one of the first non-core-IE lineages which joined, directly when the PIE left their Western steppe homeland. Because one of their first goals was, obviously, to seize control over the source of the metals and smiths, which was the Carpathian zone. And early "attack" on the Carpathians was done by Coțofeni, which might have fused with locals though, but this was more in the central parts of Transylvania. But similarly, other groups infiltrated or just conquered the respective regions. What happened in detail, how much of the local people and culture survived, is open to debate. What did fuse into various early steppe derived groups and Usatovo, was for sure GAC groups. Certainly others could have a similar position "on more equal terms". This is the way various haplogroups, like with GAC probably primarily I2, could joined some steppe groups and migrated with them. Others kept their independence, and again others just disappeared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If Southern Illyrians were J2b2 dominated then you have to explain the relatively low J2b2 among Southern Albanians. The truth is we don't know for sure yet, it's weird since archeologically i have read two opposing opinions, people thinking Thracians were already formed by 1500 B.C and other thinking they were descended from Gava Culture.

    The other weird things are the Messapians who are considered Illyrian, Albanians and Thracians having a common word for horse, manz/maz.

    Whatever the percentages were, we shall find out soon i guess.
    Three things:
    1st Illyrians were not one homogeneous group, but some might have been descendants from earlier Tumulus groups, others came in later from the North, even from Poland down and through Pannonia South.
    2nd Thracian and Illyrian groups influenced each other, especially people like the Triballi were most likely Thracian with Illyrian influences. And a new steppe wave strongly influenced Thracians, created the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which spread stronger, larger horses for more effective horseback riding. This steppe impact really transformed the Pannonian landscale for yet another time. Only with Hallstatt a more settled and higher culture established itself there again. Before some authors speak of a "Yurtification", so this should tell you something. The horse surely got even more important in that period of time through the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.
    3rd Whoever the ancestors of Albanians were, even if they were Illyrians, we don't know where these specific tribes were living. Probably there were huge upheavals and movements in the meantime and some lineages now common in Albania made it to the region just fairly late or with Thracians, there are so many options.

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    There was a late Neolithic/Chalcolitic Dalmatian Cardial survivor culture which adopted some Ljubljana culture ways, but at the same time and before all of their sites have been visited by the Yamnaya people. These people coexisted with Yamnaya, unlike in most cases where Yamnaya killed the locals. These Yamnaya spent some time there, say century or two, but being nomadic they left, to where? Where they came from: Romania, Bulgaria (where they ended the Ezero culture). Did they take some Cardials with them? Genetic diversity says they took E-CTS1273 person with them. Only E-Y37092 stayed there presumably to found Cetina culture with some other elements.

    As V13 began spreading in EBA, there is nothing other that Glina III Schnekenberg to explain its spread, diversity. Cetina itself cannot explain V13 in any way, it can be small part of V13, and a dead end. Cetina left no descendants culturally and all of them were assimilated by subsequent cultures of different origins, this is what E-Y37092 shows, bunch of lineages no closer to each other than EBA. But several of them are from Western Balkan area. And anonymous studies from Croatia as well as some results from Montenegro indicate there are possibly more.

    The important contact with Yamnaya happened before Cetina culture existed, even it seems before the arrival of Ljubljana culture. E-Y37092 separated from E-CTS1273 4600 ybp per current estimate. This is all 1000 years before the advent of Tumulus culture. Glina III dispersion caused the widespreadness of V13 lineages in Carpathians which will later become part of the Urnfield complex.

    It's either this or some Lengyel survivor who assimilated in Carpathians, or Cucuteni, but V13 would have been much less common there % wise than in this Cardial survivor element which did survive, its development can be followed all the time. Existence of any Cucuteni, Lengyel element which fused with IE is not something I'm aware of. And despite coexistence with Yamnaya this local Cardial remnant (but altered ofc) survived to take part later in the formation of Cetina culture.

    Regarding my view it is important therefore to distinguish that while I mention Cetina culture I think E-CTS1273 has no connection whatsoever to Cetina, neither does quite possibly E-Y30976.
    The first layer of Yamnaya finds at one late Cardial site is carbon dated to 3090-2690 BC. It stands perfectly to reason that some of these locals would have joined with newcomers and went away with them (as these didn't stay forever there).

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    @Aspurg: All you say is reasonable, and I agree with it by and large, but don't you think it makes things more complicate than they have to be? I mean if we have a surviving Lengyel-Sopot/TCC tradition up in the Carpathian sphere, how could we even notice it archaeology after its assimilation? With a more South Wester, Dalmatian origin, you just have to explain yet another turn of events and migration. So while both is possible, I think a survival directly in the Carpathian zone is much more likely. And I asked the same question on Anthrogenica, I so far so not a single clade of E-V13 which must have been pre-LBA and especially none with a clearly wider spread and splitting pattern, like Britain : Balkan or Scandinavia : Near East dating to anything before the EIA. I guess that even some of the potential clades are just a matter of lack of more sampling, which will prove regional subclade of a similar age rather than anything older?

    Another interesting question is, probably you can answer it, which other E1b clades could be associated with the survival and spread of E-V13, even though they were not as successful. Like we have a lot of E-M35 samples now from around Neolithic Europe and we have other, probably Germanic-Slavic E1b samples from Vikings and early Slavs-Germans as you know. Probably they survived together in the North Carpathian region until taking different paths, probably even some E1b1b departed earlier from the main E-V13 group in the North and managed to survive as a very small minority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    @Aspurg: All you say is reasonable, and I agree with it by and large, but don't you think it makes things more complicate than they have to be? I mean if we have a surviving Lengyel-Sopot/TCC tradition up in the Carpathian sphere, how could we even notice it archaeology after its assimilation? With a more South Wester, Dalmatian origin, you just have to explain yet another turn of events and migration. So while both is possible, I think a survival directly in the Carpathian zone is much more likely. And I asked the same question on Anthrogenica, I so far so not a single clade of E-V13 which must have been pre-LBA and especially none with a clearly wider spread and splitting pattern, like Britain : Balkan or Scandinavia : Near East dating to anything before the EIA. I guess that even some of the potential clades are just a matter of lack of more sampling, which will prove regional subclade of a similar age rather than anything older?
    There is an issue of some lone E-BY3880* clades. One Albanian tested E-CTS5856*, likely per STR's BY3880*. Cluster of Macedonians E-BY3880*. Some other non-Z5018/Z5018 clades seem to have MBA/EBA presence in the Balkans, going per current result. If we go by TMRCA estimates then these clades should be explained.

    With that in mind it was important for me to prove that CTS1273 was not born in the Balkans, even if some BY3880's might have been. Of the 3 non-BY3880 clades none going by the current evidence was born in the Balkans, indicating clearly CTS1273 wasn't either (and ofc most of their clades have Carpathian branches).

    Take the example of Ossetians. They have a cluster R-Y5587>Y5586>BY71456. R-Y5587 with Carpathian R-Y14300 and generally East Balkan R-Y5586 seems to mimic Glina III culture well. In which case Ossetian cluster might be some stray Eastern Glina branch assimilated by the Srubnaya etc. But they also have E-CTS1273>FT7781 (BY3880-). R-Y5587>BY71456 Ossetian cluster might be a hint that E-FT7781 is of Glina branch as well. They could have had similar paths. They definitely seem to have similar paths for over 2000 years..

    Also one argument if E-Y37092 indeed is related to Cetina culture, if we assume E-Y37092 came from the Carpathians, it would be little bit bizarre that it went to Dalmatia and made contact with a population of some E-L618 survivors.

    If one takes Glina culture path then all stray Balkan E-V13 clades are easily explainable through some EBA migrations.. And this cannot be countered easily. To fit them into Urnfield you have to rely that in the future they will have their matches in the Urnfield areas.

    Recently a Romanian E-Y35953 appeared and it seems that Romanians are the only people to have both major subclades of Y35953: E-PF6784 and E-BY15406. This new Romanian should be BY15406+ and there is a cluster of Romanians which seems to belong to E-PF6784. This is why it is important to test more Romanians because of larger V13 population there.

    And ofc we hardly have Romanian BA/IA aDNA..

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Another interesting question is, probably you can answer it, which other E1b clades could be associated with the survival and spread of E-V13, even though they were not as successful. Like we have a lot of E-M35 samples now from around Neolithic Europe and we have other, probably Germanic-Slavic E1b samples from Vikings and early Slavs-Germans as you know. Probably they survived together in the North Carpathian region until taking different paths, probably even some E1b1b departed earlier from the main E-V13 group in the North and managed to survive as a very small minority?
    Well there is a L618 clade in Albanians: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y182141/

    Not sure E-BY64249 are Saudis or Albanians (both of them are in this clade at FTDNA). This seems to fit into Cardial wave. There is some L618 Latvian with Chalcolitic links to Lebanon so we can't judge much there.

    I spoke of a Z5017 clade before which has clearly old presence in Scandinavia: Norwegian, Swede, Dane with LBA/EIA TMRCA. None of them are at YFull yet. Their EBA/MBA relatives are in Scotland/Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Also one argument if E-Y37092 indeed is related to Cetina culture, if we assume E-Y37092 came from the Carpathians, it would be little bit bizarre that it went to Dalmatia and made contact with a population of some E-L618 survivors.
    To reflect on E-Y37092, and its Western Balkan diversity I will also analyze other possibility, namely Carpathian links of Y37092.
    - Vasojevici clan Montenegro
    E-Y126722
    - Rajevici Novi Pazar area, (YF18895)
    - Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058, not sure if both Albanians are Dushmani, probably not.

    Additionally there is N.Macedonian who is E-BY14150 in cluster with the Spanish guy.

    It is not seen currently neither at YFull nor FTDNA because of no NGS results but per SNP and STR results E-BY14150 exists in a Ukrainian, Rusyn, and Slovak. They are distant to Macedonian E-BY14150, probably around the TMRCA of this clade (2600 ybp), and Slovak seems pretty distant from the others too, so I trust Carpathian E-BY14150 have TMRCA of over 2000 years if they are not parallel clades. In a Moldovan study good E-Y81468 candidates are found. In the same study there is also one E-BY14150.

    There is some Polish haplotype that seems certainly related to Vasojevici albeit he looks close, roughly 600-800 years based on Y67 so not sure what to make of it. E-Y30976 has Pole, also closer to Pole than hi Armenian cousin are Hungarians and Tatar interestingly. Though this Armenian is from Istanbul.

    So there is some Carpathian diversity, and older presence of E-BY14150 at least there. Other than Macedonian there are no other E-BY14150's, not even candidates for BY14150..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If Southern Illyrians were J2b2 dominated then you have to explain the relatively low J2b2 among Southern Albanians. The truth is we don't know for sure yet, it's weird since archeologically i have read two opposing opinions, people thinking Thracians were already formed by 1500 B.C and other thinking they were descended from Gava Culture.
    The other weird things are the Messapians who are considered Illyrian, Albanians and Thracians having a common word for horse, manz/maz.
    Whatever the percentages were, we shall find out soon i guess.
    This isn't an important question, why? Modern southern Albanians do not solely determine which y dnas ilyrians belonged to, they were a large group of tribes that inhabited western balkans. Also:

    1. Southern Albanians haven't had enough dna tests as of yet, Northern Albanians a lot more

    2. South Albanians seem to have more south Slavic y dna than j2b as it stands, so it is unclear what happened historically in south Albania, this is a bigger question. From current tests it has influence from South Slavs, Italians, Greeks (maybe some of this came from ottoman?). It could be that some south Albanians are descendents of Epirus which would have also had Greek y dna and (modern) Greece seems quite mixed itself so do the math

    3. We don't know for sure when/where j2b came from and which other y dna it may have come with (maybe r1b z2103 which south albania seems to have a fair amount of)

    4. Northern Albanians are a bit more isolated, more mountainous so may have avoided mixing with others

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    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    To reflect on E-Y37092, and its Western Balkan diversity I will also analyze other possibility, namely Carpathian links of Y37092.
    - Vasojevici clan Montenegro
    E-Y126722
    - Rajevici Novi Pazar area, (YF18895)
    - Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058, not sure if both Albanians are Dushmani, probably not.

    Additionally there is N.Macedonian who is E-BY14150 in cluster with the Spanish guy.

    It is not seen currently neither at YFull nor FTDNA because of no NGS results but per SNP and STR results E-BY14150 exists in a Ukrainian, Rusyn, and Slovak. They are distant to Macedonian E-BY14150, probably around the TMRCA of this clade (2600 ybp), and Slovak seems pretty distant from the others too, so I trust Carpathian E-BY14150 have TMRCA of over 2000 years if they are not parallel clades. In a Moldovan study good E-Y81468 candidates are found. In the same study there is also one E-BY14150.

    There is some Polish haplotype that seems certainly related to Vasojevici albeit he looks close, roughly 600-800 years based on Y67 so not sure what to make of it. E-Y30976 has Pole, also closer to Pole than hi Armenian cousin are Hungarians and Tatar interestingly. Though this Armenian is from Istanbul.

    So there is some Carpathian diversity, and older presence of E-BY14150 at least there. Other than Macedonian there are no other E-BY14150's, not even candidates for BY14150..
    I think what this really shows, still, is how difficult it is to determine a source. In reality, if there was a large scale migration, of the bulk of a people, their whole variation migrated with them, to the new home and left the old source region. This is can't be explored that easily without ancient DNA, obviously.

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