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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post

    As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).
    Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am not saying all E subclades where born in Africa, as some are from the Levant ( an indication that E moved out of africa via Egypt )
    That makes much more sence to me as things stand. Surely have to wait for more concrete answers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.
    Age estimation of haplogroups are notoriously imprecise, even with a lot of data. For proof, the latest (and supposedly most accurate) Y-chromosomal tree's TMRCA estimations by Hallast et al. (2014) give haplogroup I1 an age of 3,500 years, even though a 7,000 year-old sample from Neolithic Hungary was found.

    Personally I remain undecided about the place of origin of E-V13. It could have appeared in North Africa just before crossing to South Europe, but it could just as well have appeared soon after E-M78 people landed in Europe. We simply cannot know for now. E-V13 in Libya and Egypt could be easily explained by the ancient Greek presence in the region.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).
    Where did I say that Afroasiatic languages were spread only by E1b1b people ? If you put the explanations from different Y-DNA pages together, you'll see that I explained that R1b-V88 brought cattle to the Levant and North Africa, while J1 and T1a brought goats to the same region (+ the Arabian peninsula), both during the Early Neolithic. If Afroasiatic languages spread back from East Africa to Northwest Africa and the Middle East, then they would have brought all the lineages already present in East Africa at the time, namely an E1b1b majority accompanied by J1, T1a and R1b-V88. So yes, I agree with you on that.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

    A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).

    B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

    C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).
    Italics arrived in Italy around the 2000 BCE and R1b was present there since the Copper Age.
    Another correction is the Italics in south Italy, the Enotrian family (and the subgroups of the South like Sicels and Brutius entered in the south around 1300 BCE) with the myth of King Italo.
    E-V13 has the same distribution of south Italy even in Germany according to this map.



    C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta, Creta, South Western France and Sicily).
    Fixed but they were deported from Spain and Sicily.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Age estimation of haplogroups are notoriously imprecise, even with a lot of data. For proof, the latest (and supposedly most accurate) Y-chromosomal tree's TMRCA estimations by Hallast et al. (2014) give haplogroup I1 an age of 3,500 years, even though a 7,000 year-old sample from Neolithic Hungary was found.
    3500 year seems very late, I'd say 4-5000 years
    there doesn't have to be a contradiction with the neolithic I1 found 7000 years old
    either neolithic I1 got extinct or it got through a serious bottleneck
    as you stated yourself, not much of the G2a LBK and Cardial Ware expansions survived, most are G2a-P303 Indo-Europeans

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think we can, at present, know whether E-V13 arose in north Africa (perhaps Egypt?). It might have, but as has been pointed out, there isn't very much there now, and what does exist could easily be explained by the large numbers of Greeks who settled in Egypt (and Libya) in the Hellenic period. I think the preponderance of the evidence is that it is more likely to have arisen either in the Near East or in Europe. It may turn out, however, that this will remain a mystery.

    Certainly, if it did originate in North Africa, the more parsimonious take on the route for it, imo, would be north along the Levant and then into Europe. I'm not persuaded that it somehow crossed the Mediterranean directly from North Africa to Sicily, for example. The vast majority of the gene flow in the Mediterranean was by boats (or rafts) hugging the coastline and following the prevailing wind and sea currents. This was the case until very late indeed. Even in the Bronze Age, with much better technology, trade from Egypt to Greece followed a route north along the Levantine coast and only then headed west.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz1...ckwise&f=false

    http://www.mediterranean-yachting.co...ps/current.GIF

    Furthermore, one thing that I think is clear from Boattini et al is that whatever the precise dates might be for E-V13, the relative dating, at least, shows that the E-V13 in Italy arrived rather late in history. The most reasonable explanation, in my view, is that it arrived via Greece and the Balkans, and I think the likelihood of the E-V13 in the Balkans and Greece stemming from a man being being blown across the Mediterranean from North Africa to Greece and getting very lucky is even more unlikely than the same scenario for Sicily.
    See:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    There is a reason why current haplogroups are distributed along the Mediterranean in certain specific ways: it's just not all that easy to go south/north or north/south across it. It required more sophisticated shipbuilding and navigation techniques. That isn't to say, of course, that there couldn't have been some gene flow in those directions. While some E-M81 in Iberia may have come from North Africa with the Moors, the fact that there is WHG in North Africa indicates some gene flow in both directions occurred, and some of it could have arrived at an earlier time. (Given the relatively young age of E-M81, however, I think it looks more like Neolithic era gene flow than a Mesolithic one.) Likewise, there could have been some movement from Tunisia to Sicily in ancient times. I just don't think that fits with E-V13; it was in the Balkans before it was in Italy.

    As to whether this migration was Mesolithic or Neolithic I don't know. The expansion time for modern European E-V13, however, seems to be pretty late and correlates pretty well to the Bronze Age.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Semetic Duwa what makes it so obvious that E-V13 was mutated in North (east?) Africa? M78 that was mutated some 18,000 BP is a very high probability to be born there. E-V13 was mutated some 8/10,000 later. Why would that make it obvious for it to be born there too? If it did, do you really believe that as soon as the person who had that mutation hopped over on a raft and had lots of children on the other side? We all know that E-V13 is approx 1% in North Africa. Apart from what is a real obvious fact that Greek settlements in Egypt are very well document from the classical era, so those meagre 1% cannot even be considered to be innate to the region and seems more like an import from the balkans rather then the other way round. I am doing my best to make sense out of it all.
    The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
    Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
    Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.
    Since we know the Phoenicians only came from modern lebanon and it was under hittite influence in the early days of its success, its trading area was only with syria in the levant. The other southern parts where under the Egyptians.
    If we study the November 2009 paper - landscape of the Levant, we find the following markers: only lebanon+syria
    381 x J2-M172
    368 x J1-M267
    222 x E1b-M35
    107 x L-M20
    94 x G-M201
    91 x R1b-P25
    51 x R1a-M17
    48 x T-M70
    41 x I-M170
    the other are too minor

    Clearly the Phoenicians could only bring these markers to North Africa and the western Med.
    Since E is one of the major ones, it seems like this is the answer ..
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... I sincerely fail to see what's so hard to understand about this.
    Now of course, we cannot be sure just yet as we don't have actual confirmation from archeogenetic data, and so in a sense "anything" is possible (including the disappearance of earlier centres of M78 diversity in the Middle East), one thing's for sure though: The odds are in favour of a North African origin for E-V13.
    Simple. It seems that there are thousands of years between the birth of M78 and the new E-V13 mutation. Thousands of years means that the M78 could have easily moved to another completely different region and new mutation happened in a completely different location (region). This is extremely logical and possible and should carry no controversy. It is well known with other haplogroups and new mutations. Why is it too hard to understand? Then the next step is to:-

    *)get correct ancient data (still very scarce but some is available)
    *)see present concentrations
    *)fit it in with documented history

    and one can start to draw a picture.

    Personally I am very much inclined to believe that E-78 (before the E-V13 mutation occurred) traveled out of Egypt and mixed or created part of the Natufian culture, moving further up along the coast by time (mixed with other haplogroups since the area seems to have been natural melting pot of haplos especially those known to have accompanied E-V13 like G's and J's). (Natufian culture covered present day Israel, Lebanon and Parts of Syria right up to the Turkish border and Carbon dating suggests it started from 15,000 years BP ).

    quote:- More generally there has been discussion of the similarities of these cultures with those found in coastal North Africa. Graeme Barker notes there are: "similarities in the respective archaeological records of the Natufian culture of the Levant and of contemporary foragers in coastal North Africa across the late Pleistocene and early Holocene boundary" -unquote

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture#Precursors_and_associated_culture s

    The M78 traveled further north crossing to Europe (balkans or Islands) and E-V13 was born there or in the Levant (close to the balkans) . Of course when the miracle happens that we can correctly access the haplogroups of the many Natufian remains found in the near east region it would make things a little more easier. But I do not know of any study that has established these haplogroups yet.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Simple. It seems that there are thousands of years between the birth of M78 and the new E-V13 mutation. Thousands of years means that the M78 could have easily moved to another completely different region and new mutation happened in a completely different location (region). This is extremely logical and possible and should carry no controversy. It is well known with other haplogroups and new mutations. Why is it too hard to understand? Then the next step is to:-

    *)get correct ancient data (still very scarce but some is available)
    *)see present concentrations
    *)fit it in with documented history

    and one can start to draw a picture.

    Personally I am very much inclined to believe that E-78 (before the E-V13 mutation occurred) traveled out of Egypt and mixed or created part of the Natufian culture, moving further up along the coast by time (mixed with other haplogroups since the area seems to have been natural melting pot of haplos especially those known to have accompanied E-V13 like G's and J's). (Natufian culture covered present day Israel, Lebanon and Parts of Syria right up to the Turkish border and Carbon dating suggests it started from 15,000 years BP ).

    quote:- More generally there has been discussion of the similarities of these cultures with those found in coastal North Africa. Graeme Barker notes there are: "similarities in the respective archaeological records of the Natufian culture of the Levant and of contemporary foragers in coastal North Africa across the late Pleistocene and early Holocene boundary" -unquote

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture#Precursors_and_associated_culture s

    The M78 traveled further north crossing to Europe (balkans or Islands) and E-V13 was born there or in the Levant (close to the balkans) . Of course when the miracle happens that we can correctly access the haplogroups of the many Natufian remains found in the near east region it would make things a little more easier. But I do not know of any study that has established these haplogroups yet.
    The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

    As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it... The thing is, we shouldn't try to make this a black & white issue, we've stumbled onto a few surprises while uncovering Europe's genetic past (and we still are), there's no reason why North Africa and SW Asia would prove any less bewildering especially if we take into account the fact that these parts of the world have a far more complex story to tell than Europe has.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think you guys should check the E1b1b tree. There are three new subclades in between E-M78 and E-V13, each defined respectively by 2 and 13 mutations. Let's call them E-Z1919 and E-L618. V13 has four other defining mutations. After that V13 expands into numerous subclades (six to date) each defined by a single mutation.

    What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

    It would be interesting to get the distributions of E-Z1919* and E-L618* to get an idea of the path followed by this lineage on its way to Europe. Unfortunately they are too new to have relevant data, esp. from Africa where commercial tests are sparse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I think you guys should check the E1b1b tree. There are three new subclades in between E-M78 and E-V13, each defined respectively by 2 and 13 mutations. Let's call them E-Z1919 and E-L618. V13 has four other defining mutations. After that V13 expands into numerous subclades (six to date) each defined by a single mutation.

    What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

    It would be interesting to get the distributions of E-Z1919* and E-L618* to get an idea of the path followed by this lineage on its way to Europe. Unfortunately they are too new to have relevant data, esp. from Africa where commercial tests are sparse.
    what we know is the E-Z1919 split into E-V13 and E-V22 : Red Sea, Somalia
    and YFull has 81 SNPs for E-V13 (I guess inclusive E-L618) , so E-V13 may have made a long journey before expanding

    E-V68 and E-M78 also have lots of SNP

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what we know is the E-Z1919 split into E-V13 and E-V22 : Red Sea, Somalia
    and YFull has 81 SNPs for E-V13 (I guess inclusive E-L618) , so E-V13 may have made a long journey before expanding

    E-V68 and E-M78 also have lots of SNP
    A long period of isolation is compatible with V13 crossing early to Italy during the Ice Age and being stuck there for several millennia because of the glaciers around the Alps. Then, we could suppose that the sudden diversification of subclades coincides with the warming up of the climate and the adoption of agriculture after mixing with G2a farmers (and J1+T1a herders).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

    As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it... The thing is, we shouldn't try to make this a black & white issue, we've stumbled onto a few surprises while uncovering Europe's genetic past (and we still are), there's no reason why North Africa and SW Asia would prove any less bewildering especially if we take into account the fact that these parts of the world have a far more complex story to tell than Europe has.
    The question is or should be asked is .....Where ancient North-East Africans ( Egyptians ) really africans

    http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unra...Neolithisation

    as per the link, not many of these "back to Africa" ( what a bad term for a haplogroup that never originated there) where more than a single subclade of a haplogroup

    Apart from E1b1b showing origins in egypt, the rest seem like visitors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.
    Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?

    As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it...
    This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.
    As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The question is or should be asked is .....Where ancient North-East Africans ( Egyptians ) really africans

    http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unra...Neolithisation

    as per the link, not many of these "back to Africa" ( what a bad term for a haplogroup that never originated there) where more than a single subclade of a haplogroup

    Apart from E1b1b showing origins in egypt, the rest seem like visitors
    Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins... I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).

    Then again, this is just an educated guess and we will need archeogenetic testing to confirm or infirm it.

    This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins
    Oh but I am well aware, E-M34 happens to be the most common lineage amongst my relatives (which isn't "normal" as one would expect my own paternal lineage to be the most common one [it's the second most common one though] given the long history of inbreeding in my family) and I suspect my paternal grandmother's father himself carried this haplogroup... However, I think we shouldn't make hasty conclusions from contemporary data, especially without archeogenetic data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)
    E-L618 would have been reported as E-M78* in older studies. Cruciani et al. 2007's paper on E-M78 only found E-M78* among Egyptians from Gurna Oasis (5.9%), Moroccan Arabs (3.6%) and Sardinians (0.3%) - and no other population. So it looks like North Africa is where E-L618 developed, not the Near East or Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........
    How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins
    The vast majority of Jewish E1b1b belongs to E-M34, and even to the deeper L117 subclade. This does not suggest a very old origin like Neolithic or Natufian. Anyway if E-M34 already existed in the Early Neolithic we can infer that it would have spread everywhere with agriculture. No need to test ancient DNA to know this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins...
    Its maybe the way we are putting the words. Maybe I am emphasizing more the distinction between M78 (before the birth of V13 and V13 proper to were it was born. But V13 is comming out of M78 no doubt

    I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).
    So that is already an indication that before mutating to E-V13 - z1919 has moved to the East closer to the Levant and not North Africa.

    (Another thing, I am not religious and do not follow religious books, but one can still refer to biblical (Torah) writings for some kind of historical references. In this case can there be some weight (maybe different (older) time frames) from stories brought down from generation to generation on the exodus of Jewish People from Egypt into the Sinai? Maybe it wasnt a dessert as we know it today, but whoever wrote the story have written it in todays context environmental wise. (just food for thought)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.
    The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

    There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

    Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

    There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

    Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.
    I didn't see that. But anyway coalescence ages depend on the number of samples collected in each region and are always very imprecise (+- 5.6 kya is meaningless). Anyway E-V13 could very well be younger in places like Albania and Kosovo than in Anatolia, if V13 originated in North Africa or Italy, and spread first to Greece and western Anatolia, then only later north of Greece. After all, no E-V13 was found among Early Neolithic samples from the Starcevo culture in Serbia.

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