Where did E-V13 originate ?

The arguments you've made can also be assessed for other M78 branches, so once more I fail to see what's so hard to understand about what I just said, the other M78 branches (which all have a significant time gap between their birth and that of M78) arose and emerged in Africa, and so this makes an African origin for E-V13 more likely than the scenario you speak of. Now as I said I could be wrong, we cannot know for sure judging from contemporary samples, we can only suspect, so we'll have to wait for archeogenetic confirmation of a given model.

Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?

As far as the Natufian horizon is of concern, while it does harbour North African influences it mostly seems to be derived from the earlier Kebaran horizon which preceded it...

This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins
 
What this shows is that L618 evolved in isolation for quite a well before V13 appeared, then V13 seems to have blossomed in all directions. This would be consistent with L618 being a minor North African lineage winnowed by the advance of the Sahara, and that V13 suddenly re-expanded after reaching fertile southern Europe.

As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)
 
The question is or should be asked is .....Where ancient North-East Africans ( Egyptians ) really africans :eek:

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unr..._An_Archaeogenetic_Approach_to_Neolithisation

as per the link, not many of these "back to Africa" ( what a bad term for a haplogroup that never originated there) where more than a single subclade of a haplogroup

Apart from E1b1b showing origins in egypt, the rest seem like visitors

Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........
 
Seems like there is a hole in the bucket dear Liza argument. You are acknowledging there is a significant gap between M78, and other mutations, at the same time you insist for this reason its more probable that EV13 was born were M78 was born. Are all know subgroups of a particular haplogroups known to be born in the same region where clades mutated up stream thousands of years after?

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins... I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).

Then again, this is just an educated guess and we will need archeogenetic testing to confirm or infirm it.

This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

Oh but I am well aware, E-M34 happens to be the most common lineage amongst my relatives (which isn't "normal" as one would expect my own paternal lineage to be the most common one [it's the second most common one though] given the long history of inbreeding in my family) and I suspect my paternal grandmother's father himself carried this haplogroup... However, I think we shouldn't make hasty conclusions from contemporary data, especially without archeogenetic data.
 
As you mentioned data is scarce in the meantime do we know the frequency of E-L618 in North Africa? Do we know the frequency in the Near east?. Not yet I think. As you said if we did then we can follow a pattern that makes things more probable with a more accurate picture. In the meantime we know E-V13 is around 1% there. We also know that E-V13 in Sicily is frequent in Greek founded cities mostly on the Eastern part of the Island. To the west there are other E's in Phoenician founded locations (all imported from the East and not North Africa) If E-V13 was the first to enter in Sicily then it should be older and probably much more frequent then it is today. While Peloponnese makes much higher percentages. I have no doubt that Sicily would have provided good fertile ground for E-v13 to flourish as much as it would have had in the Peloponnese region (47%?)

E-L618 would have been reported as E-M78* in older studies. Cruciani et al. 2007's paper on E-M78 only found E-M78* among Egyptians from Gurna Oasis (5.9%), Moroccan Arabs (3.6%) and Sardinians (0.3%) - and no other population. So it looks like North Africa is where E-L618 developed, not the Near East or Greece.
 
Thanks for posting link Sile. The paper confirms that Anatolian E-V13 is older then the Balkan E-V13 and a probable near Eastern entry into Europe is probable (Unless we find older in the Balkans proper themselves) I Believe that in one of Maciamo's post was stated that the info on these papers are obsolete........... If we can tell the age in a reliable manner of E-V13, I wonder if any were found in Sicily to prove a first entry from North Africa as its being said...........

How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.
 
This does not exclude the same haplostructure amongst Natufians, after all we know that E's amongst others are one of the most popular Haplos amongst Jewish populations and also the Lebanese. Only by testing ancient DNA in these areas we can confirm their origins

The vast majority of Jewish E1b1b belongs to E-M34, and even to the deeper L117 subclade. This does not suggest a very old origin like Neolithic or Natufian. Anyway if E-M34 already existed in the Early Neolithic we can infer that it would have spread everywhere with agriculture. No need to test ancient DNA to know this.
 
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here, namely that North Africa harbours the greatest M78 diversity and therefore this should provide a clue to V13's origins...

Its maybe the way we are putting the words. Maybe I am emphasizing more the distinction between M78 (before the birth of V13 and V13 proper to were it was born. But V13 is comming out of M78 no doubt

I've checked E-M35.1 phylogenetic tree and it seems to me that Z1919 itself could have emerged in North Africa (around the shores of the Red Sea?) and crossed the Sinai with the Mushabian complex thereby resulting in the Kebaran-Mushabian merge which paved the way towards the Natufian horizon's emergence. This scenario has interesting implications from a linguistic POV since it means V22 and L618 could have branched off in the Levant at that time (this would solve a few problems we've had with V22's distribution and it would strengthen the case for a neolithic dispersal of E-V13).

So that is already an indication that before mutating to E-V13 - z1919 has moved to the East closer to the Levant and not North Africa.

(Another thing, I am not religious and do not follow religious books, but one can still refer to biblical (Torah) writings for some kind of historical references. In this case can there be some weight (maybe different (older) time frames) from stories brought down from generation to generation on the exodus of Jewish People from Egypt into the Sinai? Maybe it wasnt a dessert as we know it today, but whoever wrote the story have written it in todays context environmental wise. (just food for thought)
 
How does it confirm anything. The paper does not mention even mention haplogroup E1b1b or E-V13.

The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.
 
The link posted by Sile scrolling down to 6th page states:- quoting -Concerning E-V13 a comparision is made in the present article between the differing Neolithisation of the Balkans and Northeast Africa. A discussion of Anatolian and Southern Balkan and E-V13 is therefore relevant. The Anatolian coalescence age of E-V13 is 11.5 + 5.6Kya. The micorsatalite network of Anatolian E-V13 is not star shaped and does not indicate demographical growth (cruciani et al 2007) Balkan E-V13 has a more recent lerna/Frnchti southern Balkan coalescence of 9.2 + 4.3Kya and represents a South East European expansion - end quoting

There is more reference to E-V13 as it does not copy and paste.

Thanks for moving the Thread to its own.

I didn't see that. But anyway coalescence ages depend on the number of samples collected in each region and are always very imprecise (+- 5.6 kya is meaningless). Anyway E-V13 could very well be younger in places like Albania and Kosovo than in Anatolia, if V13 originated in North Africa or Italy, and spread first to Greece and western Anatolia, then only later north of Greece. After all, no E-V13 was found among Early Neolithic samples from the Starcevo culture in Serbia.
 
I would also like to add, that this is the write up I got on my haplogroup migration Map on Ftdna. quote - Haplogroup E1b1b East Africa and Western Eurasia - e-m215 has spread among North and East African Populations, to West Asia and eventually into Europe end quote.

(Again no North Africa crossing mentioned)
 
Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?
 
Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?
Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.
 
Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.

I presume that can be a possibility. I have been following a discussion on another forum with an E-V13 Norwegian who is very curious of how E-V13 could have entered Scandinavia. Through his paper trail there were no recent interactions with outsiders. He suggested that it could be possible that there was some kind of contact (as in buying and selling of goods) between the region of Scandinavia and Thracia. An other person suggested maybe some people that were brought back after (Viking) raids on the continent or Britian. One has to have a knowledge (and as factual as possible) of a detailed history of the region (which I dont have). In fact Denmark (furthest south in Scandinavia) has the highest percentages of E-V13 at 4 to 3 % (Quoting this same person). This is all speculation of course but everything possible.
 
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Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.

I just noticed that the Danish FTdna project the E's are described as Neolithic farmers. It would be interesting to know how the project administrator came to that conclusion. G's are described as Paleolithic. If we know that is true then the Roman soldiers theory in Britain will naturally lose some credibility as the percentages are very similar in both regions.
 
Y-EV13 is an old enough subclade in Europe I suppose, or at least its upstream SNPs: maybe just before Neolithic in Balkans? because of its apparent "preseance" in Montenegro/Crna Gora and South Dalmatia South Bosnia over supposed Neolithic Y groups as Y-G2a and Y-J2? -
when comparing the ratio's of E1b/J2, Eb/G2 and G2/J2, Bosnia (except bosnian Serbs) show the highest %s for E/J and E/G, and G/J, (at a lower level, Bulgaria seems showing the same less domination of J2) - and Crna Gora, and S-Bosnia had for I red the richest diversity in Balkans for E1b -
I could guess E1b seems the oldest in Balkans (West at least), before G itself before J2 (but J2 I admit is an unprecise naming, a lot different subclades exist came there at different times - ROUGH ANALYSIS !!!

all the way E1b appears having known a demographic "boom" more in South and Central-East Balkans (rivers system), maybe later, incorporated first among farmers and later among metals rich societies of East Balkans - the southern mixt of E1b(V13 for the mosr)+G2a+J2 seem going northwards from Romania to Bela-Russia with a rough correlation with 'mediterranean' autosomals there (Cucuteni Tripolje area) -
so the presence of Y-E1b (V13) in Britain as well as in Scandinavia can have several causes: Neolithic and Bronze/Iron ages, without need of a Roman explanation if not excluding this last one in Britain... very slight all the way
 
the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case

Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?
 
The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... .

On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins

 
Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?

the rate of snp/generation is allways the same
gereration can be longer or shorter,(20-30 years) and it me depend on the culture or way of life
the number of known snp is not the same as the real number of snp
but if one is looking systematically for snps, then the rate of known/real snps should be more or less the same for each haplogroup
the more snps become known the better the number these known snps indicate the age
 
On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins


I wonder whether this map is acurate :

E1b1b1a.jpg

E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
~ 15,000 years BP
Place of origin
Northeast Africa
Ancestor
E1b1b1 (M35)
Descendants
E1b1b1a1 (V12)
E1b1b1a2 (V13)
E1b1b1a3 (V22)
E1b1b1a4 (V65)


Highest Frequencies
Region
Frequency
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%
Albania
+ 35%
Northern Egypt
+ 35%
Southern Greece
+ 35%
Libya
+ 30%
Cyprus
+ 15%
Southern Italy
+ 15%
Levant
+ 10%

my estimates :

time of origin
E-V68 30 ka
E-M78 23.5 ka
E-V13 13 ka
expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka
 

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