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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
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    I would also like to add, that this is the write up I got on my haplogroup migration Map on Ftdna. quote - Haplogroup E1b1b East Africa and Western Eurasia - e-m215 has spread among North and East African Populations, to West Asia and eventually into Europe end quote.

    (Again no North Africa crossing mentioned)

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
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    Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Very often the E-V13 in Britian and to some extent in South West Germany is suggested to be the result of Roman occupation (soldiers from the Balkans settling there, although if Im not mistaken this theory is being challenged too). Scandinavia was never conquered by the Romans. There are also tiny percentages of E-V13 in parts of Scandinavia. To what could these tiny percentages be attributed? at what age and how did they get there? Any opinions?
    Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.
    Nullum magnum ingenium mixtura dementiae fuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.
    I presume that can be a possibility. I have been following a discussion on another forum with an E-V13 Norwegian who is very curious of how E-V13 could have entered Scandinavia. Through his paper trail there were no recent interactions with outsiders. He suggested that it could be possible that there was some kind of contact (as in buying and selling of goods) between the region of Scandinavia and Thracia. An other person suggested maybe some people that were brought back after (Viking) raids on the continent or Britian. One has to have a knowledge (and as factual as possible) of a detailed history of the region (which I dont have). In fact Denmark (furthest south in Scandinavia) has the highest percentages of E-V13 at 4 to 3 % (Quoting this same person). This is all speculation of course but everything possible.
    Last edited by Maleth; 27-01-15 at 14:15. Reason: typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Neolithic farmers maybe? They reached Scandinavia much later than other areas, but they eventually got there.
    I just noticed that the Danish FTdna project the E's are described as Neolithic farmers. It would be interesting to know how the project administrator came to that conclusion. G's are described as Paleolithic. If we know that is true then the Roman soldiers theory in Britain will naturally lose some credibility as the percentages are very similar in both regions.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Y-EV13 is an old enough subclade in Europe I suppose, or at least its upstream SNPs: maybe just before Neolithic in Balkans? because of its apparent "preseance" in Montenegro/Crna Gora and South Dalmatia South Bosnia over supposed Neolithic Y groups as Y-G2a and Y-J2? -
    when comparing the ratio's of E1b/J2, Eb/G2 and G2/J2, Bosnia (except bosnian Serbs) show the highest %s for E/J and E/G, and G/J, (at a lower level, Bulgaria seems showing the same less domination of J2) - and Crna Gora, and S-Bosnia had for I red the richest diversity in Balkans for E1b -
    I could guess E1b seems the oldest in Balkans (West at least), before G itself before J2 (but J2 I admit is an unprecise naming, a lot different subclades exist came there at different times - ROUGH ANALYSIS !!!

    all the way E1b appears having known a demographic "boom" more in South and Central-East Balkans (rivers system), maybe later, incorporated first among farmers and later among metals rich societies of East Balkans - the southern mixt of E1b(V13 for the mosr)+G2a+J2 seem going northwards from Romania to Bela-Russia with a rough correlation with 'mediterranean' autosomals there (Cucuteni Tripolje area) -
    so the presence of Y-E1b (V13) in Britain as well as in Scandinavia can have several causes: Neolithic and Bronze/Iron ages, without need of a Roman explanation if not excluding this last one in Britain... very slight all the way

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
    there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

    arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
    the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case
    Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    The sheer fact that all the other M78 branches (V12, V22, V65) are distributed mainly throughout North Africa and that the respective branches' have their highest diversity in North Africa does a great disfavour to any theory implying that E-V13 wasn't born in North Africa... .
    On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you stating in a way that all haplogroups have each mutation at approx. the same number of years?
    the rate of snp/generation is allways the same
    gereration can be longer or shorter,(20-30 years) and it me depend on the culture or way of life
    the number of known snp is not the same as the real number of snp
    but if one is looking systematically for snps, then the rate of known/real snps should be more or less the same for each haplogroup
    the more snps become known the better the number these known snps indicate the age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia and Southern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins

    I wonder whether this map is acurate :

    E1b1b1a.jpg

    E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
    ~ 15,000 years BP
    Place of origin
    Northeast Africa
    Ancestor
    E1b1b1 (M35)
    Descendants
    E1b1b1a1 (V12)
    E1b1b1a2 (V13)
    E1b1b1a3 (V22)
    E1b1b1a4 (V65)


    Highest Frequencies
    Region
    Frequency
    Somalia
    + 75%
    Darfur (Sudan)
    + 55%
    Horn of Africa
    + 45%
    Albania
    + 35%
    Northern Egypt
    + 35%
    Southern Greece
    + 35%
    Libya
    + 30%
    Cyprus
    + 15%
    Southern Italy
    + 15%
    Levant
    + 10%

    my estimates :

    time of origin
    E-V68 30 ka
    E-M78 23.5 ka
    E-V13 13 ka
    expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I wonder whether this map is acurate :

    E1b1b1a.jpg

    E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
    ~ 15,000 years BP
    Place of origin
    Northeast Africa
    Ancestor
    E1b1b1 (M35)
    Descendants
    E1b1b1a1 (V12)
    E1b1b1a2 (V13)
    E1b1b1a3 (V22)
    E1b1b1a4 (V65)


    Highest Frequencies
    Region
    Frequency
    Somalia
    + 75%
    Darfur (Sudan)
    + 55%
    Horn of Africa
    + 45%
    Albania
    + 35%
    Northern Egypt
    + 35%
    Southern Greece
    + 35%
    Libya
    + 30%
    Cyprus
    + 15%
    Southern Italy
    + 15%
    Levant
    + 10%

    my estimates :

    time of origin
    E-V68 30 ka
    E-M78 23.5 ka
    E-V13 13 ka
    expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka
    Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt andLibya.[3]
    Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007), Semino et al. (2004) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa. This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

    Not too sure what that map is representing.

    I think this is more specific and informative


    E1b1bRoute (1).png


    Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.
    Last edited by Maleth; 02-02-15 at 12:20. Reason: adding map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt andLibya.[3]
    Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007), Semino et al. (2004) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa. This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

    Not too sure what that map is representing.

    I think this is more specific and informative


    E1b1bRoute (1).png


    Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.
    check this :

    https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchg ate.net%2Fprofile%2FMark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F2 27992119_The_Nile_Evolution_Quaternary_River_Envir onments_and_Material_Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887 bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQ jCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

    IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
    they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
    15 ka the Nile changed
    the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check this :

    https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchg ate.net%2Fprofile%2FMark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F2 27992119_The_Nile_Evolution_Quaternary_River_Envir onments_and_Material_Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887 bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQ jCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

    IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
    they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
    15 ka the Nile changed
    the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive
    Cannot manage link . Seems like that region is most likely. (pre Nubians maybe? before recorded history?) If one has correct data of dramatic climate change and time frames it helps to piece the puzzle. Egypt has high percentage of M78. That was also the time of initiation of the Natufian culture in the Near east. My problem with that is that I read that climate change started taking effects approx some 10,000 years ago. That would make the spreading of E-M78 too late

    10,000 years ago was the possible entry (judging on the ancient dna in iberia) of E-V13 in the Balkans which is much later to the birth of E-M78

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    I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

    According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
    2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
    2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
    2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa
    So when you see 1-2% North-West European Y-Dna in southern Europe and Anatolia it is because of Vikings. When you see 1-2% of a southern European Y-Dna in North Africa, it is because it came from there. Yeah, it's not like Greeks colonized Egypt or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).
    Show me a single scholarly source that says Albanian has numerous pre-IE vocabulary. Because EV-13 had a founder effect in small Balkans' states, it means they have pre-IE vocabulary? Maybe the V88 bearers in Africa speak a cousin language to Indo-European who knows? #MaciamoLogic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

    According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
    2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
    2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
    2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3.


    Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.
    You are most welcome :)

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    Somalia
    + 75%
    Darfur (Sudan)
    + 55%
    Horn of Africa
    + 45%

    somali is v32 under v12

    Darfur (Sudan) is v12

    Horn of Africa is v12 and v32 and v22

    Libya v65


    v68* and m78* found in europe and anatolian not in africa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).
    Italics were not the first Indo Europeans in Italy. There were several migrations from Central/Eastern Europe into Italy since the Copper Age.

    The first Indo Europeans arrived with the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures around 3500 BC.

    Italics settled between 2000 and 1000 BC from the Tumulus/Unetice/Urnfield cultures.

    Oldest Celtic inscription were found in the Golasecca culture.

    Ligurians are now considered to be of Celtic stock, based on placenames and personal names.
    Last edited by giuseppe rossi; 10-03-15 at 18:09.

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    According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.



    Copper Daggers.


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    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...o-9603632.html

    This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

    Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...o-9603632.html

    This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

    Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.
    Thank you for link Expredel, very interesting. E1b is a very generic term. Like most haplogroups many have been split into further subclades. There are even thousands of years between each subclade so it is becoming more appropriate to differentiate for the simple reason that we are realising that each subclade as in any other haplogroup, has a different story to tell. So these generic maps with a simple A,B,C are a little passe for people who are really interested in migrations and their stories.

    The Malaria theory is a very interesting one. Has there been a study in regards to Malaria resistance in 'General' E folks? However personally I do not agree with this for the simple reason that E people in subsaharan Africa are not resistant to Malaria some 68,000,000 people contracted it in 2009. Half of the Malaria cases (if not mistaken) are contracted in South East Asia.

    In North Africa its not much of a threat for the simple reason that it does not have the same tropical conditions (warm / hot and wet) found in Subsharan Africa (and not resistance per se). As in South Europe E (which to the most is E-V13, not found in Sub saharan Africa and rare in North Africa), is not the main Haplogroup, so other HG groups should not be resistant to Malaria too if as you say South Europe is doing so well?. However resistance is not the case. Malaria in South Europe does not present the same ideal Tropical conditions for it to be a big issue such as South East Asia and Sub saharan Africa.

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    You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.

    Historical malaria distribution.



    Malaria resistance is not the same as malaria immunity, it would more so have to do with decreasing the likelihood of acquiring the disease and the speed of recovery.

    Sickle cell anemia is a good indicator.



    Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.
    Malaria sure existed and not too long ago in relative terms well into very late medieval period. We had a local area of 'marsh land' on the south of the Harbour area. people did not live there because of the problem. The Grand master of the time commissioned a project to drain the waters (to the horror of the wild birds that used to roost there :)) and created incentives for people to move in the area. Now the town is called Rahal Gdid New village, or Paola (the name of the grandmaster). The British turned the area into a Sports Centre for the use of the military services, now its a horse racing track, golf centre and rugby ground. I am sure similar Marsh land could have been the main cause of Malaria in other regions in South europe and North Africa. Both regions have an advantage tho as they both have long dry summers and collection of rain water that goes stale is temporary unlike tropical areas.

    Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.
    Im really not an expert and stand to be corrected but sickle-cell anemia is directly co related to Malaria stricken areas irrelevant of Hplogroups. The sickle cell anemia could affect any haplogroup that has a history of Malaria.

    "Due to the adaptive advantage of the heterozygote, the disease is still prevalent, especially among people with recent ancestry in malaria-stricken areas, such as Africa, the Mediterranean, India, and the Middle East.[34] Malaria was historically endemic to southern Europe, but it was declared eradicated in the mid-20th century, with the exception of rare sporadic cases."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-...sease#Genetics

    I think there were also know cases (maybe to a much lesser extent (because of cooler weather) in other parts of the world and not just a subject to these areas. This is why so much Marsh terrain has been drained in so many countries making ways to canals

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    E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

    Indeed,

    Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

    Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.

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