Where did E-V13 originate ?

I wonder whether this map is acurate :

View attachment 7061

E1b1b1a (M78)Time of origin
~ 15,000 years BP
Place of origin
Northeast Africa
Ancestor
E1b1b1 (M35)
Descendants
E1b1b1a1 (V12)
E1b1b1a2 (V13)
E1b1b1a3 (V22)
E1b1b1a4 (V65)


Highest Frequencies
Region
Frequency
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%
Albania
+ 35%
Northern Egypt
+ 35%
Southern Greece
+ 35%
Libya
+ 30%
Cyprus
+ 15%
Southern Italy
+ 15%
Levant
+ 10%

my estimates :

time of origin
E-V68 30 ka
E-M78 23.5 ka
E-V13 13 ka
expansion time for E-V13 : 4.5 ka

Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt andLibya.[3]
Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007), Semino et al. (2004) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa. This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

Not too sure what that map is representing.

I think this is more specific and informative


E1b1bRoute (1).png


Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.
 
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Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that this subclade originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in the study refers specifically to the region of Egypt andLibya.[3]
Prior to Cruciani et al. (2007), Semino et al. (2004) had proposed a place of origin for E-M78 further south in East Africa. This was because of the high frequency and diversity of E-M78 lineages in the region of Ethiopia. However, Cruciani et al. (2007) were able to study more data, and concluded that the E-M78 lineages in the Horn of Africa were dominated by relatively recent branches (see E-V32 below). They concluded that the region of Egypt was the likely place of origin of E-M78 based on "the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

Not too sure what that map is representing.

I think this is more specific and informative


View attachment 7062


Regarding the time frames I will not doubt that there will reconsideration by time. It happens as we will have more refined tools to analise data and so on.

check this :

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FMark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F227992119_The_Nile_Evolution_Quaternary_River_Environments_and_Material_Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
15 ka the Nile changed
the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive
 
check this :

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FMark_Macklin%2Fpublication%2F227992119_The_Nile_Evolution_Quaternary_River_Environments_and_Material_Fluxes%2Flinks%2F0fcfd5069887bcc176000000.pdf&ei=t57OVLDQAabD7gbL4YCADA&usg=AFQjCNFkY1-KMuvOq_oBDeL436YSFgjcBg&sig2=5RPjmo3TTlo-BphqhfNSUg&bvm=bv.85076809,d.ZGU

IMO E-M78 was a tribe along the Nile 23-15 ka
they were living on the fish and the plant food the Nile provided after each flooding season
15 ka the Nile changed
the subclades of E-M78 spread, looking for a new territory where they could survive

Cannot manage link :(. Seems like that region is most likely. (pre Nubians maybe? before recorded history?) If one has correct data of dramatic climate change and time frames it helps to piece the puzzle. Egypt has high percentage of M78. That was also the time of initiation of the Natufian culture in the Near east. My problem with that is that I read that climate change started taking effects approx some 10,000 years ago. That would make the spreading of E-M78 too late

10,000 years ago was the possible entry (judging on the ancient dna in iberia) of E-V13 in the Balkans which is much later to the birth of E-M78
 
I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3.


 
That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa
So when you see 1-2% North-West European Y-Dna in southern Europe and Anatolia it is because of Vikings. When you see 1-2% of a southern European Y-Dna in North Africa, it is because it came from there. Yeah, it's not like Greeks colonized Egypt or anything.
difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).
Show me a single scholarly source that says Albanian has numerous pre-IE vocabulary. Because EV-13 had a founder effect in small Balkans' states, it means they have pre-IE vocabulary? Maybe the V88 bearers in Africa speak a cousin language to Indo-European who knows? #MaciamoLogic
 
I never saw this Civilization mentioned in this blog so I hope this helps.

According to Wikipedia the Capsian culture apparently has some settlements in Southern Spain and Sicily, I'm really curious to know what these settlement sites they speak of are.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture
2005 D. Lubell. Continuité et changement dans l'Epipaléolithique du Maghreb. In, M. Sahnouni (ed.) Le Paléolithique en Afrique: l’histoire la plus longue, pp. 205-226. Paris: Guides de la Préhistoire Mondiale, Éditions Artcom’/Errance.
2004 N. Rahmani. Technological and cultural change among the last Hunter-Gatherers of the Maghreb: the Capsian (10,000 B.P. to 6000 B.P.). Journal of World Prehistory 18(1): 57-105.
2013 S. Mulazzani (ed.) Le Capsien de Hergla (Tunisie). Culture, Environnement et économie. Reports in African Archaeology 4. Frankfurt a. M., Africa Magna Verlag. ISBN 978-3-937248-36-3.



Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.
 
Thank you Twighlight, interesting links and ancient culture. I am inclined to believe that the Capsians would be a people that later mixed with berbers (or could have already been related), which would have been a source of Ydna E-M81 that is prevalent today.

You are most welcome :)
 
Somalia
+ 75%
Darfur (Sudan)
+ 55%
Horn of Africa
+ 45%

somali is v32 under v12

Darfur (Sudan) is v12

Horn of Africa is v12 and v32 and v22

Libya v65


v68* and m78* found in europe and anatolian not in africa
 
B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

Italics were not the first Indo Europeans in Italy. There were several migrations from Central/Eastern Europe into Italy since the Copper Age.

The first Indo Europeans arrived with the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures around 3500 BC.

Italics settled between 2000 and 1000 BC from the Tumulus/Unetice/Urnfield cultures.

Oldest Celtic inscription were found in the Golasecca culture.

Ligurians are now considered to be of Celtic stock, based on placenames and personal names.
 
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According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.

R4biR0b.gif


Copper Daggers.

X4v5aOv.png
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...f-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...f-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

This might be the best evidence of African migration into North Africa. The Nile river was dried up for quite a while and started flowing again around 11000 BC, possibly as early as 13000 BC.

Malaria resistance could be an explanation for E1b doing well in North Africa and Southern Europe, keep in mind malaria was wide spread in Southern Europe at one point, and likely several points in time. Malaria is such a nasty disease that it is highly improbable that E1b doesn't offer some kind of increased resistance.

Thank you for link Expredel, very interesting. E1b is a very generic term. Like most haplogroups many have been split into further subclades. There are even thousands of years between each subclade so it is becoming more appropriate to differentiate for the simple reason that we are realising that each subclade as in any other haplogroup, has a different story to tell. So these generic maps with a simple A,B,C are a little passe for people who are really interested in migrations and their stories.

The Malaria theory is a very interesting one. Has there been a study in regards to Malaria resistance in 'General' E folks? However personally I do not agree with this for the simple reason that E people in subsaharan Africa are not resistant to Malaria some 68,000,000 people contracted it in 2009. Half of the Malaria cases (if not mistaken) are contracted in South East Asia.

In North Africa its not much of a threat for the simple reason that it does not have the same tropical conditions (warm / hot and wet) found in Subsharan Africa (and not resistance per se). As in South Europe E (which to the most is E-V13, not found in Sub saharan Africa and rare in North Africa), is not the main Haplogroup, so other HG groups should not be resistant to Malaria too if as you say South Europe is doing so well?. However resistance is not the case. Malaria in South Europe does not present the same ideal Tropical conditions for it to be a big issue such as South East Asia and Sub saharan Africa.
 
You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.

Historical malaria distribution.

Malaria_distribution.jpg


Malaria resistance is not the same as malaria immunity, it would more so have to do with decreasing the likelihood of acquiring the disease and the speed of recovery.

Sickle cell anemia is a good indicator.

Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg


Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.
 
You have to keep in mind that the right tropical conditions for malaria existed in North Africa and Southern Europe at one point.

Malaria sure existed and not too long ago in relative terms well into very late medieval period. We had a local area of 'marsh land' on the south of the Harbour area. people did not live there because of the problem. The Grand master of the time commissioned a project to drain the waters (to the horror of the wild birds that used to roost there :)) and created incentives for people to move in the area. Now the town is called Rahal Gdid New village, or Paola (the name of the grandmaster). The British turned the area into a Sports Centre for the use of the military services, now its a horse racing track, golf centre and rugby ground. I am sure similar Marsh land could have been the main cause of Malaria in other regions in South europe and North Africa. Both regions have an advantage tho as they both have long dry summers and collection of rain water that goes stale is temporary unlike tropical areas.

Far from perfect data, maybe someone more knowledgeable can make better sense of it and link it to African migrations. Looks like the map supports an early E1 migration that carried sickle-cell anemia, followed by a 2nd migration that did not carry it. Could be the 2nd migration carried a mutation that made the sickle-cell anemia mutation obsolete.

Im really not an expert and stand to be corrected but sickle-cell anemia is directly co related to Malaria stricken areas irrelevant of Hplogroups. The sickle cell anemia could affect any haplogroup that has a history of Malaria.

"Due to the adaptive advantage of the heterozygote, the disease is still prevalent, especially among people with recent ancestry in malaria-stricken areas, such as Africa, the Mediterranean, India, and the Middle East.[34] Malaria was historically endemic to southern Europe, but it was declared eradicated in the mid-20th century, with the exception of rare sporadic cases."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease#Genetics

I think there were also know cases (maybe to a much lesser extent (because of cooler weather) in other parts of the world and not just a subject to these areas. This is why so much Marsh terrain has been drained in so many countries making ways to canals
 
E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

Indeed,

Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.
 
E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

Indeed,

Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.

Hardly any prove to merit an 'indeed' for a mutation of E-V13 in Libya with those (anyway) low figures in bold....don't you think so? besides E-V13 type are more likely an import of very well documented Greek settlements and slaves brought over to North Africa through frequent raids of southern European shores rather some mutation that occurred there. Very much to the contrary of very high percentages of E-81 that characterize the YDNA of the area ;).
 
More opinions on E-V13 from 12-1-2013Genetics and the Archaeology of Ancient Israel of Wayne state University:-

Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=humbiol_preprints
 
Not really. I expect that they were fishermen who got lost and ended up on the wrong coast.

Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.

45052c50a4634109c3b175523b9716db.jpg


Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.


Very interesting, so basically you could have even swam from Africa to Sicily and spreading anywhere in Europe and Balkans...
 
According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.

R4biR0b.gif


Copper Daggers.

X4v5aOv.png

When BB entered Italy , it mixed with Remedello and became Polada culture
 
According to a new study by Trombetta et al.2015 (http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/06/23/gbe.evv118.short?rss=1), E-V13 (like E-V22) is now under a new E-V1083.

What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.


  • E-M78
    • E-M78*
    • E-V1477
    • E-V1083.
      • E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
      • E-V13
      • E-V22
    • E-V1129
      • E-V12
        • E-V12*
        • E-V32
      • E-V264
        • E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
        • E-V65
 
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