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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    E-V13 very likely originated in Libya, not in Near East.

    Indeed,

    Bekada et al. 2013 "Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape" reported 7.2% E-M78 in a sample of 83 Lybians (Cruciani et al. 2007; Ottoni et al. 2011; unpublished results), including 2.4% E-V13 and 4.8% E-V65.

    Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2013 "Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa" reported 11.1% E-M78 in a new sample of 215 Lybians. Percentage of E-V13 is not mentionned in the study but according to someone who contacted one of the authors, E-V13 is around 3.7%.
    Hardly any prove to merit an 'indeed' for a mutation of E-V13 in Libya with those (anyway) low figures in bold....don't you think so? besides E-V13 type are more likely an import of very well documented Greek settlements and slaves brought over to North Africa through frequent raids of southern European shores rather some mutation that occurred there. Very much to the contrary of very high percentages of E-81 that characterize the YDNA of the area ;).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    More opinions on E-V13 from 12-1-2013Genetics and the Archaeology of Ancient Israel of Wayne state University:-

    Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not really. I expect that they were fishermen who got lost and ended up on the wrong coast.

    Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.



    Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.

    Very interesting, so basically you could have even swam from Africa to Sicily and spreading anywhere in Europe and Balkans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    According to Gimbutas the Remedello and Rinaldone Cultures represent the first Indo European migrations into Italy.



    Copper Daggers.

    When BB entered Italy , it mixed with Remedello and became Polada culture
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    According to a new study by Trombetta et al.2015 (http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...18.short?rss=1), E-V13 (like E-V22) is now under a new E-V1083.

    What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

    So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.


    • E-M78
      • E-M78*
      • E-V1477
      • E-V1083.
        • E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
        • E-V13
        • E-V22

      • E-V1129
        • E-V12
          • E-V12*
          • E-V32

        • E-V264
          • E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
          • E-V65



    Last edited by HQ420832; 28-06-15 at 11:42.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    According to a new study by Trombetta et al.2015 (http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...18.short?rss=1), E-V13 (like E-V22) is now under a new E-V1083.

    What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

    So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.


    • E-M78
      • E-M78*
      • E-V1477
      • E-V1083.
        • E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
        • E-V13
        • E-V22

      • E-V1129
        • E-V12
          • E-V12*
          • E-V32

        • E-V264
          • E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
          • E-V65



    Thanks for posting this HQ. I had a quick look but will be reading it in detail later. Unfortunately the paper mostly seem to concentrates on the v1515 which co relates with sub saharan clades. There is no mention of E-V1038. (I try to look for this E-V1083 maybe in other sources. In regards to E-V13 it more or less confirms earlier studies, and it does not make any references to how it entered in Europe. Personally I do not consider the findings in Sardenia and Eritrea as a proof of a crossing of this subclade from North Africa to South Europe espesially in the absense of any E-V1038 in North Africa proper. If we have to use this logic then we can say that it flew there (from Eritrea to Sardenia) so to speak. This is of particular interest to E-V13 and confirmes earlier findings.

    (quote). Another striking aspect of ourdating is the previously unappreciated large difference in the age between haplogroup EM215(38.6 kya; 95% CI 31.4-45.9 kya) and its sub-haplogroup E-M35 (25.0 kya; 95% CI20.0-30.0 kya). Within the E-V68 sub-clade, the M78 mutation arose in a time windowbetween 20.3 kya (95% CI 16.2-25.4 kya) and 14.M8 kya (95% CI 11.6-18.5 kya), namely the TMRCA for E-V68 and E-78, respectively. The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post-Neolithicexpansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).(unquote)

    Another thing is that many past papers have been quoted and refered to so I very much doubt if anyone can say that previous findings could be considered obsolete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    When BB entered Italy , it mixed with Remedello and became Polada culture
    Well, the problem is that Remedello people are still EEF, so it would appear that Gimbutas was wrong, or these were very atypical "Indo-Europeans."


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

    From the paper:
    "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

    As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.

    I think it's also just as well to clear up any confusion about E-V13. A sample was indeed found in a Neolithic sample from 5,000 BC. It was in the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia.

    This is the link to the paper:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/1...df?with-ds=yes

    This is the table where it is clearly labeled as E-V13:
    Attachment 7341

    It also so appears in Jean Manco's online table of ancient DNA:
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    This is why the author said that it was definitely related to the E-V13 in the Balkans.

    Attachment 7342


    This is the map of the current distribution of E-V13. It may not be totally current, but the general parameters are clear.

    So, we do indeed know that E-V13, and moreover an E-V13 related to the E-V13 now present in the Aegean and surrounding areas, was present in Neolithic Europe 5,000 BC in a Cardial context. Once again, Cardial was an east to west Neolithic migration that began in the Aegean and/or the Balkan area.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif


    Given all of that, until some new piece of ancient DNA is proffered which would change the picture, the movement into Europe of E-V13 would seem to have been from east to west and probably during the Neolithic, as numerous scholars have posited.

    I also think it has to be borne in mind that TMRCA should not be conflated with "date of arrival". The particular TMRCA of a certain group could be consistent with the arrival of a lineage long before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

    From the paper:
    "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).
    Indeed its a confirmation of an earlier paper, also Battaglia et al (2008) is still very relevant and the recent paper says nothing in contradiction.

    This what Steve Bird (author of the Roman theory for E-V13 in Britian) has to say on the new paper from the E-V13 forum:-

    (quote) We can improve on this estimate further, however, by recalling that a V13 aDNA skeleton, carbon dated to 7 kya, was found in northeastern Spain recently. This gives us a firm lower boundary for the appearance of V13. Since it is unlikely that the skeleton found in the Spanish cave was the founder of the V13 subclade, an older date of coalescence must be found. We can now say that V13 is AT LEAST 7,000 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,800 years old. The central estimate of 8.1 kya for the TMRCA actually fits quite nicely with the appearance of the V13 skeleton on the Mediterranean coast 7 kya. (It should also be noted that the rho estimate barely overlaps the known 7 kya lower fence but just barely, with the upper 95% CI at 7.3 kya). We are left with a strong estimate of the TMRCA for V13 of 7-10.8 kya (97.5% CI, since we can ignore the portion of the tail that is younger than 7 kya). There is only a 2.5% probability that the "true" TMRCA is older than 10.8 kya and there is zero probability that it is younger than 7 kya.

    Another interesting finding is that of Figure S4 (Supplementary Figures). Using a posterior probability of ancestral geographic location, the authors predict a nearly 100% probability of the geographic origin of V13 being in Europe. The analysis includes one Druze male subject (from Israel), which accounts for the extremely small sliver of Asian probability seen in the pie chart of S4. This is very significant because it moves the theoretical origin of V13 from the Levant/Anatolia to the Balkan peninsula proper. (/quote)

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    For me it is almost unbelievable that E-V13 carriers came from North Western Africa via Gibraltar. For now only result is founded in Spain and it makes confusion but maybe we watching this result too much. Of course we need new ancient results in different epochs.

    I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

    "The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

    Here's the map so you can see where they were:
    Last edited by Angela; 29-06-15 at 20:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

    Here's the map so you can see where they were:
    Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

    Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

    Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.
    Ok, ok, why don't you crow already?!

    Seriously, kudos to you and Maciamo for holding out for it.

    The J2 was from 4990-4850 BC. One was found in Lengyel and one in Sopot culture.

    I'd love to say that it was late Neolithic because then I'd have come in under the wire by saying J2 could have come in during the Late Neolithic, but I've seen Lengyel described as a middle/late Neolithic culture.

    Interestingly, Nagy suggests both of these haplogroups moved in from the southeast later than the other farmer yDna lineages. I'm going to post about it in the dedicated thread.

    It is a monster paper. I've barely skimmed it and I've still spent an hour or two on it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Yes, J2 is Neolithic! Sile, take notice, I was right!

    Was it late Neolithic? I don't have time to go through this monstrous paper yet.
    Are you baiting again?

    I have always agreed with my ALPGEN project manager ChrisR there was J2 ( as ChrisR is J2 ) in Neolithic europe................why did you include my name............can you give yourself an infraction for another insult on me.!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

    Here's the map so you can see where they were:
    So J2 was found as far as North Poland. But rather late Neolithic(4700). The core of J2 seems to have come in Bronze Age context though. It is not much of a suprise to find individual cases earlier, as was the case with other Haplogroups too. Wished to see autosomal data of this J2 individuals.

    If J2 reached some parts of Europe during late Neolithic, than it might really be connected to the "West Asian" component of various calculators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, the problem is that Remedello people are still EEF, so it would appear that Gimbutas was wrong, or these were very atypical "Indo-Europeans."
    And?

    I have never believed like yourself the huge importance given to the hunters. I give more importance to farmers and herders

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    And?

    I have never believed like yourself the huge importance given to the hunters. I give more importance to farmers and herders
    You must be the only poster here who thinks I "favor" hunters over farmers. :) From the subtext, I rather think most people think the opposite!

    In actuality, I don't "favor" any one ancient population group over any other. It's not like placing bets on football teams, and always "favoring" the home team. Plus, which is the home team? We're all descended from all of them, if some more than others.

    Anyway, I just want to know what happened. That's it. I don't play around with the data or the interpretations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are you baiting again?

    I have always agreed with my ALPGEN project manager ChrisR there was J2 ( as ChrisR is J2 ) in Neolithic europe................why did you include my name............can you give yourself an infraction for another insult on me.!
    I was referring to your comment from about 2 weeks ago from another thread which said something like this: "LeBrok is never right". That's why I called your attention to an example where I was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

    From the paper:
    "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

    As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.
    .
    Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.

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    1) North Africans displaced by Eurasian migrants that invaded North Africa.


    or

    2) Coastal North African aquatic hunter/gatherers. Changing climate enticed them to move up the coasts fishing, avoiding inland non-African humans. They eventually got absorbed by inland Europeans and Coastal Europeans, then Eurasians who rolled in with Asian agriculture.

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    Fascinating indeed, most especially the part about Eurasians invading North Africa in time for E-M78 to then make it all the way to the Balkans by 7000 BC.

    I'd be most interested in reading the papers, and the evidence they cite, supporting this novel hypothesis. Just post the links and I'll be certain to read them over the week-end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    Yes maybe that E-V13 has arisen in Southern Europe around 8,500 years ago but its parent E-V1083 very likely migrated directly from North Africa to South Europe sometime betwen 8,500 and 15,000 years ago. Indeed, the most important from this paper is the discovery of E-V1083 (also a parent of E-V22) and the fact that its absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. But in any case, we know now for sure that Proto AfroAsiatic speakers were in Europe much longer before Indo-European invaders who cannot be considered as native europeans due to the fact they only arrived 4,500 years ago.
    They may have not spoken proto-AfroAsiatic.

    Berber language is in its own branch of the Afro-Asiatiic language tree but their language could have easily originated with early Eurasian migrants that reached North Africa in pre-history. Berbers have considerable Eurasian admixture.

    Areas that speak Afro-Asiatic languages have a high degree of Eurasian influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
    1) North Africans displaced by Eurasian migrants that invaded North Africa.
    Also possible..

    V88%u00252BOut%u00252Band%u00252BBack.jpg

    http://originhunters.blogspot.com/20...in-africa.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You must be the only poster here who thinks I "favor" hunters over farmers. :) From the subtext, I rather think most people think the opposite!

    In actuality, I don't "favor" any one ancient population group over any other. It's not like placing bets on football teams, and always "favoring" the home team. Plus, which is the home team? We're all descended from all of them, if some more than others.

    Anyway, I just want to know what happened. That's it. I don't play around with the data or the interpretations.
    The issue with hunters is that in these type of sites have vast number of ID's referring to many types of hunters, WHG, UHG, SHG etc etc........because no one has any clue on what this hunter represent.
    We do not even know if the male line of farmers hunted and the females tended the crops, another variation

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    i always find info on this site interesting, but have doubts on his historical tracking.

    his latest 3 posts on AuDna is very good

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