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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

  1. #101
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    I believe that E-V13 is basically in majority a Pelasgian marker and a southern balkans marker , the one found in iberia is basically a "scout"
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I was referring to your comment from about 2 weeks ago from another thread which said something like this: "LeBrok is never right". That's why I called your attention to an example where I was right.
    Ok, Np

    But I also follow union of markers - LT , IJ etc........where did they split is what I search for, and since IJ where once in union and I is in Europe ( majority ), then J must be nearby

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
    Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.
    It would be interesting to discuss about original language (languages) of G2a carriers. Has someone idea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It would be interesting to discuss about original language (languages) of G2a carriers. Has someone idea?
    Originally probably something like kartwelian, but
    during their travelings they could absorbed others
    like, pontic, kaspic, semitic, or some unknown today.

    But I guess that kartvelian will be the clue.
    Last edited by Rethel; 05-07-15 at 16:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
    Pelasgians were people there before Greeks. They could be those G haplogroup dominated groups from the neolithic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Originally probably something like kartwelian, byt
    during their travelings they could absorbed others
    like, pontic, kaspic, semitic, or some unknown today.

    But I guess that kartvelian will be the clue.
    Bravo! I read some authors who link Pelasgian with Kartvelian, what means that Pelasgians could be G2a people, and I wanted that someone has similar opinion here in forum without my suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Bravo! I read some authors who link Pelasgian with Kartvelian, what means that Pelasgians could be G2a people, and I wanted that someone has similar opinion here in forum without my suggestion.
    With Pelasgians is some kind of problem, because, no one exactly know, what greeks authors have in mind when they wrote about this people - probably they themselves didn't knew. In mythology Pelasgians are sometimes some kind of Greeks, but sometimes they are showed as people different. So who they were exactly we dont know. BUT, this name is using as synonim pre-Greek settlemets - and very good! Before Greeks arrived people in this lands could be alleready mixed, but I uderstand, that the piont of all discussion is which gruop of people was the first? So I guess that it will be hg E, aspecially in southern part of Greece. In the north - who knows, it could be either I, G, or even J. Did the people E called themselves Pelasgians? I don't know, but some similarities between this name and some place-names in this region can in some part testify on behalf of that theory, because there are some vocal connections with Peleste and Pelishtim, ie Philistines. As it is known from egyptian and semitic sources, they were consider as migrants from Crete or some others aegean islands (like Kos) so it wouldnt be so strange if they were the settlers of others parts of the present Greece too. Btw, I dont remember exactly, but Philistines were pinted the same way as Egyptians were, so, they were similar in appirience, so, if they came from southern Greece, then the original people from that parts could be not only similar to egyptians but also has this special hg - E.
    Last edited by Rethel; 05-07-15 at 21:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    With Pelasgians is some kind of problem, because, no one exactly know, what greeks authors have in mind when they wrote abot this people - probably they themselves didn't knew. I mithology Pelasgians are sometimes some kind of Greeks, but sometimes they are showed as people different. So who they were exactly we dont know. BUT, this name is using as synonim pre-Greek settlemets - and very good! Before Greeks arrived people in this lands could be alleready mixed, but I uderstand, that the piont of all discussion is which gruop of people was the first? So I guess that it will be hg E, aspecially in southern part of Greece. In the north - who knows, it could be either I, G, or even J. Did the people E called themselves Pelasgians? I don't know, but some similarities between this name and some place-names in this region can in some part testify on behalf of that theory, because there are some vocal connections with Peleste and Pelishtim, ie Philistines. As it is known from egyptian and semitic sources, they were consider as migrants from Crete or some others aegean islands (like Kos) so it wouldnt be so strange if they were the settlers of others parts of the present Greece too. Btw, I dont remember exactly, but Philistines were pinted the same way as Egyptians were, so, they were similar in appirience, so, if they came from southern Greece, then the original people from that parts could be not only similar to egyptians but also has this special hg - E.
    It is interesting, researchers reconstructed language Phaistos disk as Colchian Kartvelian/Caucasian!

    Prof. Nana Shengelaila

    On Decipherment of the Phaistos Disk and Linear A Inscriptions in Colchian Language by Gia Kvashilava

    http://www.academia.edu/2545249/Prof...Gia_Kvashilava

    The overview of the data of the ancient population of the Peloponnese (Pelasgia), Asia Minor, Aegean islands before the Indo-European migrations show that indigenous inhabitants of this area were of non-Indo-European and non-Semitic origin. According to some researchers (P. Kretschmer, F. Schachermeyr, J. Chadwick, E. J. Furnée, Th. V. Gamkrelidze, V. V. Ivanov and others) they were Proto-Kartvelian tribes whose language formed an influential substratum for the Greek dialect after the invasion of the Greek tribes of the Peloponnese and Eagean islands.

    Besides, the analysis of archaeological, ethnological, historical, linguistic and biological material, the typological study of graphical qualities of Linear A granted well-grounded Linear A inscriptions in the Colchian language.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is a thread about genetics, specifically the origin of E-V13. Protracted discussions of linguistics are off topic.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    While this has nothing to do with the origins of E-V13, i think its quite interesting and worth mentioning. E-V13 seems to have also been found as far as the Sakha Republic (Within Russian federation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha_Republic in the Anabarsky region, with frequencies as high as 40%. The population is mostly made up of ethnics Yakuts (A turkic people) and Russians according to E-V13 forum.

    http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=3997.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by HQ420832 View Post
    What is very interesting is that E-V1083* was found only in Eritrea (1.1%) and Sardinia (0.3%) and nowhere else among the 5 222 individuals from 116 populations from previous studies that were analysed.

    So E-V13's parent clade (E-V1083) almost surely originated in East Africa, then from North Africa crossed the mediterranean to Sardinia. So the hypothesis that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic seems now obsolete... The absence of E-V1083* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.


    • E-M78
      • E-M78*
      • E-V1477
      • E-V1083.
        • E-V1083*. Found in Eritreans and Sardinians.
        • E-V13
        • E-V22

      • E-V1129
        • E-V12
          • E-V12*
          • E-V32

        • E-V264
          • E-V259. Found in North Cameroon.
          • E-V65



    Most of the samples used by Trombetta et al. (2015) that represent West Asia are from a single country (Turkey; 291). This country is not exactly known to harbor a lot of E diversity. Instead those countries that needed more SNP resolution [Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Saudi Arabia; very ancient sub-clades have been found in these countries, like E-M96* and E-M35*; I would also have added Iran, where Di Cristofaro et al. 2013 found a case of E-M215*(xM35; I add also xM281 because I compared Y-STRs and found them to be completely different) in Khorasan] have been very poorly sampled. So until new studies define these paragroup cases in Asia you can't say that one sub-clade is absent from here and there. Also, note that V13 is not directly descended from V1083/Z1919, but there are two intermediate SNPs between V13 and V1083.

    E-V1083
    _E-L618
    __E-CTS1975
    ___E-V13

    Both L618 and CTS1975 have been found only in Europe. The distance between the age of formation of V1083 and L618 is only 1200 years (13.4 kya and 12.2 kya), so this brings the place of origin of Z1919 closer to Europe than to Africa.
    Let's add that the lack of E(-V13/L618) and at the same time the presence of all other "Neolithic European lineages" (G2a2, H, J2) in Early Neolithic Anatolia just reported in a study a few hours ago strengthens the European Mesolithic theory for V13 (L618). I suggest that V13 was an isolated Balkanic Mesolithic lineage that was absorbed by incoming farmers in the Balkans and was carried all over Europe with them.

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    what do we know about Pelasgians , well i'm in no way an expert but you can look it up yourself , in Greek history it says that when Dan the Danoi came from Aegyptus in Argos they met king Pelasg and asked him if they could stay and he(dumb) asked an oracle and those magicians said yes they should stay , the people of Pelasg were called kArbanoi their tongue karba audan later bArbarian tongue , now what do we learn from this , 1st the Pelasgians were called so because of the name of king Pelasgus meaning the kings people the Pelagusians / Pelasgians 2nd their real name was Arbanoi because till this day some languages of north/east Africa put an C in front of every A 3rd the Danoi must be J people because they are the tribe or a part of the tribe of Dan , now we must try to put things together , when the Sea people (pelasgians) went to the Levant their first and most important person/leader is called Arba (Arbanoi) these are the Philistines .So the name of all these people is Ar with the suffix B Ba Br Bn etc .About the C in front of an A i think and believe that Carthage is in reality Artage Art as in Tart - Tartan Dardan , but since i saw that the name Latin comes from Italia 'Lati-n n-itaL' i see that Carth is Thrac 'Carth-thraC' , so two are the names of Ar , Ar-b and Ar-t .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arban Hoti View Post
    what do we know about Pelasgians , well i'm in no way an expert but you can look it up yourself , in Greek history it says that when Dan the Danoi came from Aegyptus in Argos they met king Pelasg and asked him if they could stay and he(dumb) asked an oracle and those magicians said yes they should stay , the people of Pelasg were called kArbanoi their tongue karba audan later bArbarian tongue , now what do we learn from this , 1st the Pelasgians were called so because of the name of king Pelasgus meaning the kings people the Pelagusians / Pelasgians 2nd their real name was Arbanoi because till this day some languages of north/east Africa put an C in front of every A 3rd the Danoi must be J people because they are the tribe or a part of the tribe of Dan , now we must try to put things together , when the Sea people (pelasgians) went to the Levant their first and most important person/leader is called Arba (Arbanoi) these are the Philistines .So the name of all these people is Ar with the suffix B Ba Br Bn etc .About the C in front of an A i think and believe that Carthage is in reality Artage Art as in Tart - Tartan Dardan , but since i saw that the name Latin comes from Italia 'Lati-n n-itaL' i see that Carth is Thrac 'Carth-thraC' , so two are the names of Ar , Ar-b and Ar-t .
    Pelasgians in majority where J2 and E markers only

    Phyrgians are J2 and G2
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arban Hoti View Post
    But the influence of E people from Balkan was much erliAr .Watch this documentary before you read anything https://youtu.be/wJdB8ZEo40I

    Egypt Copt Misir Pharaoh Narmer Sadet Menes Amen Ra Thot Ma-at Africa Berber Neger(nigger/negro) have all a meaning in Arbanian so called Albanian tongue . QyP in Arb means 'jar' those ancient vases made of clay to KeeP materials together , and this is what the Nile delta does , KeePing people together , even the form of a jar/vase is like the Nile Delta .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter...re_MNB2030.jpghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_D...alse_color.jpg Its a CuP , KaP in Arbanian means to catch .CoPtic the CoPts , if the name was Ekapt than it means to KeeP things together people/land and or 'that' what was CaPtured by Narmer/Menes. Miser we say to corn , and we know how fertile that land is . The first king of Egypt Narmer , Ner in Arb means 'hoNER' , 'mer' means to take , Nar-mer = he who takes honor ,but i believe that kings name was Namman , Nam in Arb means something more than honor ,maybe renown , Man means to hold a holder , Naman = he who holds honor+ , the Eng word 'name' comes from nam because every persons name is his honor . Pharaoh , Far in Arb means 'seed' the word for fertile field is Ar , the Eng words Farmer means 'he who takes seeds' , Arable land means land that you can work = Ar ,so Far comes from Ar F-Ar=seed, the Norvegian/Swedish word for father Far comes from Arb Far/seed because the father holds the seed , ON means ours in Arb , Ionian Sea means 'our sea' ,Fara On (pharaoh) means 'our seed'. Sadet , Sa means like / how , Det(thet) means Sea , Sa-Det = like the Sea , and its all about the Nile flood = Sa Det like the Sea not a river anymore .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satetand this name is still alive in Dardania where the Aryans came from , and look at this kings hat .https://youtu.be/YMMswQoDWDohttps://youtu.be/D_9uS7lCXW4 Men in Arb means Mind , the root of this word comes from M to hold and En to be in constant movement (move-M-EN-t) , so M-EN to keep the thoughts together = Mind , Es means Est 'it is' , Menes 'he is mindful' clever.'A' means 'it is' in Arb , A Men means 'its mind' , Ra means to fall falling , A Men Ra means 'the mind(knowledge) fell' , but this is the SECRET of what happened , Menes was Naman and someone killed or took over the land/kingdom of Men and this new system is called A-Men Ra 'Menes fell' .And history repeats itself , we Arbanians made modern Egypt ,and after we fought and worked and build it ,than the black/brown/native people take it from us with force or by other means.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypthttps://youtu.be/TdGIrj-gVw0Thot means to say to tell something , to TAlk . Ma-at was responsible to measure , in Arb Mat means to measure ,Mas means measure in the past sense , the root of the word comes from M ma 'to hold' because every time measuring you need to hold a meter a stick a material x y to measure ,Mathematics comes from Mat to measure , and a person who measures hes/her self we call i/e Matur(mature) . A 'its' , Frik means Fear / scary , Africa means 'its scary' , and all that desert without water and deadly snakes scorpions , and all those deadly animals 'its scary' Berber is Arber our name , like k-Arbanoi and b-Arbarian. Neger ,the word for wild in Arb is Eger , N means 'in' ,N'Eger means 'in'wild" wilder wildish not straight wild but wilder than other people. "The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in it's writing."- Maximilian LambertzArDi.
    E came into the balkans ia the levant and before that , Egypt and before that east-africa

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    Sile. it is impossible for E to come from Africa , because all evidence points to influence from Balkan/Europe to Levant/Egypt/Africa , to many people are recorded to be from the north , the Arian/Tartanian who conquered all Asia , the Franks Brits Etrurian/Italian Kalabri Bryges/Phygians even the Deut/Teuton/Germans and those who went to Africa are all from Asia minor Balkan , to many people to much influence , they needed time to develop to this level , and the biggest Argument is 'how is it possible that the people who came from Africa are not to be found in Africa in their natural state' .
    I want to tell you something , when i first started to look into this i said to myself maybe i'm not Arbanian , so i'm speaking from and scientific point not from an nationalistic one .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arban Hoti View Post
    Sile. it is impossible for E to come from Africa , because all evidence points to influence from Balkan/Europe to Levant/Egypt/Africa , to many people are recorded to be from the north , the Arian/Tartanian who conquered all Asia , the Franks Brits Etrurian/Italian Kalabri Bryges/Phygians even the Deut/Teuton/Germans and those who went to Africa are all from Asia minor Balkan , to many people to much influence , they needed time to develop to this level , and the biggest Argument is 'how is it possible that the people who came from Africa are not to be found in Africa in their natural state' .
    I want to tell you something , when i first started to look into this i said to myself maybe i'm not Arbanian , so i'm speaking from and scientific point not from an nationalistic one .
    There is no Haplogroup from Europe..............the Neanderthals where in Europe first

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arban Hoti View Post
    Again , all these tribes like Pelasgian/Bryges/Phrygians/Etrurians all over south Europe and north Africa and Tartan/Dardan/Troyan/Kirat/Tartar/Bujar all over north Europe and Asia are all white and are called Arban(Albanian) and these people were key people in forming civilizations their linguistic influence is in all continents and we can trace them back only in the three peninsulas Asia minor Balkan and Italy , maybe this is where the name Tribal came from , these people to become so influential and so many in numbers they needed time , the humans spread from Mesopotamia , it is so easy to see this , the Indians went through Persia to India , the Chinese went the same way but more north to China , and we can see how they met in Indonesia , Indonesia means Indochinese they mixed, the blacks went to Africa and the whites to the North , the Arabs are a mix of Ar/white and black thats why they are called Arab , the word for equal in Arbanian is Barabart and because we went to India as Tartans/Dardans the word for equal in Hindi is Barabara , the roots of this word are , B make/made Ar our name A-B father/maker Art golden/art ,so B-Ar-A-B-Art means it was made from Ar the father a golden art , when you take the white color and mix it with black you get the middle brown = Arab race , i am totaly against mixing and i hate it but this was Done By God , and the wisdom behind this is to make a balance between the White and black people , and thats why the Prophets were sent to the Semites/Arabs because if they were sent to the whites the blacks would never accept them and vice versa , so every continent has to have their own Y Haplogroup and E fits perfectly into E-urope .
    In regards to E
    at best the first of E seems to be in Iberia E-78
    The E in the balkans arrived late , most likely "stuck" ( as krefter put it ) in the levant and Egypt , no E have been found in the balkans in Neolithic times................if it has , let me know as I might have missed it.

    In regards to arabs............was any mentioned by Roman historians in north Africa and the levant,?? all I read is
    Numidians = morrocco and algeria
    Liby-phoenicians/carthagians = tunisia and Libya
    Egyptians = egypt
    Philistines, Canaanites, Hebrews, phoenicians = the levant
    Syria = left over Assyrians and hittities
    Iraq = mix of sumerians, babylonians and kurds

    I do not even recall Bedouins ..............but do recall a Roman wall being built in Algeria to protect their MAIN wheat growing area from people from modern Mali

    Pelagsians = modern macedonia and northern greece
    Phygians = central Anatolia ............still fighting the Lydians in 500BC , when Lydians are supposed to be etruscans.
    Bryges = 2 places , serbia and western austria
    I do not know why you bring this up

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Can we leave the realms of fantasy and get back to E-V13? It or its immediate predecessor E-M78 was found not only in Spain, but in the mid-to-late Neolithic Sopot and Lengyel Cultures, as we've been discussing for months.

    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf

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    these 2 markers stand out

    J1-M267 44.01
    J2-M172 11.32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    In regards to E
    at best the first of E seems to be in Iberia E-78
    The E in the balkans arrived late , most likely "stuck" ( as krefter put it ) in the levant and Egypt , no E have been found in the balkans in Neolithic times................if it has , let me know as I might have missed it.

    In regards to arabs............was any mentioned by Roman historians in north Africa and the levant,?? all I read is
    Numidians = morrocco and algeria
    Liby-phoenicians/carthagians = tunisia and Libya
    Egyptians = egypt
    Philistines, Canaanites, Hebrews, phoenicians = the levant
    Syria = left over Assyrians and hittities
    Iraq = mix of sumerians, babylonians and kurds

    I do not even recall Bedouins ..............but do recall a Roman wall being built in Algeria to protect their MAIN wheat growing area from people from modern Mali

    Pelagsians = modern macedonia and northern greece
    Phygians = central Anatolia ............still fighting the Lydians in 500BC , when Lydians are supposed to be etruscans.
    Bryges = 2 places , serbia and western austria
    I do not know why you bring this up
    sile tests done in thracian tombs this year reveal that the thracians are eb1b.aka ev-13. read artical. https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/ E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There has been quite enough hijacking of this thread. One infraction has already been issued for posting off topic material. This is not an Albanian language thread or an Albanian genetics thread. From now on, every single off topic posting will result in an infraction. I will also delete the posts.

    I've also issued an infraction for provocative behavior. I will issue more if that behavior continues as well.

    Take this stuff to the Balkanian disagreements thread so other people don't have to read this nonsense and serious genetics threads aren't ruined.

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    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Bye bye : D

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
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    Country: Malta



    More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

    The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers


    Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004). Battaglia et al. (2009) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
    Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009; King et al., 2008).
    We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b; Paschoua et al., 2014) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003; Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005). Lacan et al. (2011b) and Paschoua et al. (2014) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhan...002/ajhb.22876

    Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject

  25. #125
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    More interesting insight on the origins of E-V13

    The Mesolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 foragers


    Several theories about the origin of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 and its spread have been proposed, and all are, in a certain way, linked to the Neolithic farmers. Early studies suggested that the mutation was brought to the Balkans together with early farming technologies (Semino et al., 2004). Battaglia et al. (2009) proposed an earlier arrival of this lineage in Europe (during the late Mesolithic period), followed by its Neolithic dispersal into Europe with the spread of farming. Most recently, King et al. (2011) suggested that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization.
    Researchers still debate the fate and interplay between pioneering farmers from the Near East and local Mesolithic societies and search for the clearest signal of their interaction. However, the phylogeography and temporal evidence supports the idea that E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 arose in Southern Europe, with peak frequencies among the Albanians and Greeks (Semino et al., 2004) and with declining patterns towards the north. The lack of any plausible Middle Eastern source of E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 during the Early Neolithic or Bronze Age, together with the low STR variation observed in the Middle East, additionally bolsters this view (Battaglia et al., 2009; King et al., 2008).
    We support the scenario proposed by Battaglia et al. (2009) and additionally strengthened by two recent studies that the Mediterranean route has had a pronounced role in the spread of farming (Lacan et al., 2011b; Paschoua et al., 2014) and that local South European populations adopted the new technology through their contact with Near Eastern migrants and spread it further into the European area. The high diversity of the E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 obtained in this study supports the cultural diffusion theory that the clade originated in the neighboring area of Southern Europe and spread only after populations adopted farming from Near Eastern pioneers using leapfrog colonization in the Aegean/Adriatic (Richards, 2003; Forenbaher and Miracle, 2005). Lacan et al. (2011b) and Paschoua et al. (2014) also concluded that the Mediterranean route had even greater influence on the peopling of Southern Europe during the Neolithic transition than the Central European one, based on autosomal, mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA analysis, giving even more importance to this lineage.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhan...002/ajhb.22876

    Seems like past papers are far from being obsolete in regards to the subject
    They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

    Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

    I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

    The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.

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