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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.
    Good question, and also the Scandinavian average of 3%. There was no known Roman settlements there. Maybe one day we get a clearer hint of how it got there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

    Interesting that it got so lucky in Europe but the related clades are such a minority where they originally flourished.

    I think Dienekes was right to point out that the expansion was in the Bronze Age, and I think it had something to do with the Greeks, so we can add Boattini et al to the mix of those who got it right, and who said that specific clade was rather late in Italy, and probably a good part of it was connected to Greek migrations. Another proof that some assertions I've seen lately that there is no Greek input into Italy are off the mark.

    The Boattini papers look even better with the passage of time:

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    Almost all the "E" in northern Italy is E-V13 related except for one strange founder effect. It's a big chunk of the "E" in southern Italy as well. (Strange paucity of E-M81 as well, rather down playing the role of the Moorish invasions in that area.)

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...light=Boattini

    I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.
    TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
    so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
    some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
    the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
    short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
    so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
    remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
    ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

    I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution

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    I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

    Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?


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    In Northern Albanian areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I would have thought E-V13 was more likely to have been in Greece when the Mycenaneans arrived, and then absorbed by them, and the TMRCA would allow for that, wouldn't it?

    Or if not Greece itself, perhaps in Cucuteni-Tripolyte? How would it have gotten all the way to the steppe?
    Cucuteni is another possibility.
    The steppe maybe as a trader along the Black Sea shores.
    Allready 5 ka there was trade between Aegean and Black Sea.
    The spread from Greece would not explain how far north some E-V13 got.
    The starting point for E-V13 seems to me somewhere northeast of Greece.

    Also strange : some E-618 bloke, ancestral to E-V13 made it to Latvia

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
    so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
    some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
    the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
    short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
    so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
    remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
    ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

    I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution
    I read once, that E-V13 was ONE of the Hittite markers , along with R1b and others

    I do not recall it in northern Italy or southern Germany in greater numbers than the other E of E-L117
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    TRMCA of E-V13 is 4.3 ka which is 600-700 years before the arrival of the Mycenians in Greece
    so there may have been some of them among the Mycenians, hence the E-V13 in S Italy
    some others must have arrived elsewhere and then to Tyrol or s Germany
    the Mycenians had swords and chariotts and horse bits when they arrived in Greece ca 1650 BC
    short before that the same gear arrived in the Carpathian Basin, coming from the western Pontic steppe
    so I guess E-V13 4.3 ka was somewhere in the western Pontic steppe
    remember 4.3 ka E-V13 was not a population, it was just 1 single male ancestor of all E-V13
    ca 3.3 ka most of the western steppe population were ousted by the Cimmerians (Srubnaya people coming from further east)

    I think this is a scenario that could explain todays E-V13 distribution
    Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

    E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

    Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.

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    Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




    Last edited by Angela; 15-07-16 at 05:05.

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    I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.



    The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.



    http://www.nature.com/article-assets...ep19157-f1.jpg

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    It seemed like E1b1b was brought by the Natufians and then developed locally to E-V13. Especially if we consider its distribution in the Middle East, among who seems to be Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just so we can visualize it, this is the Eupedia map for E-V13. I may be wrong, but it doesn't look to me like the major spread is from the steppe Indo-Europeans moving from east to west from the steppe across central Europe, for example, and then down into southern Europe. It wouldn't explain Spain for one thing. It looks like a migration into Cyprus, then Crete, then mainland Greece, then the rest of the Balkans ( a founder effect perhaps in Albania), and then a diffusion from there. The spread around the Crimea and Russia could very well be related to all the Greek trading colonies along the Black Sea in the first millennium BC. The higher levels in Aegean Turkey seem to me like back migration because of the Greek settlements there. In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy. Ralph and Coop pointed out in their IBD analysis that they believed the only significant IBD sharing of Italy with other areas in the last millenium or two was with the Balkans. The hot spots in Liguria and Venice could be explained by trade or other contacts with Greece, of which there were many. In southern France we had Massalia.




    This distribution shows that Bicicleur is right.

    E-V13 is spread with IE invasion as minor lineage among Indo-Europeans.

    No chance that Russians, Belarusians, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles etc. could have E-V13 if E-V13 only spread over Greek colonies in Black sea. It would be limited to coastal areas, not so far to the west and north. Even Scandinavians have E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.



    The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.



    http://www.nature.com/article-assets...ep19157-f1.jpg
    In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
    IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've also included a map of Greek trading areas around the Black Sea. They date from the eighth to the third century BC.



    The other maps are of the distribution of J2b. I've often heard it said it matches E-V13, but I think there are some major differences. Bicicleur, if you read this, what is the TMRCA for that? In the second map the J2b is the bottom part of the graphic.



    http://www.nature.com/article-assets...ep19157-f1.jpg
    TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
    Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

    P.S. Trojet says here above :
    In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    He hints at the expansion of the subclade J-Z597 whose TRMCA is similar to the TRMCA of E-V13 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

    People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
    Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

    the Alans were a Scyth tribe

    another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
    the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia



    I guess there are just to many possibilities to explain the distribution of E-V13, even taking ino account the very late 4.3 ka TRMCA
    the problem is to little is known about the distribution of the subclades of E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    TRMCA for J2b is old enough, 15.8 ka. But I don't know what are the J2b subclades in the Balkan.
    Furthermore J2b is not found in any European anciant DNA, so I guess it arrived relatively late in Europe or in a confined area.

    People from the steppe arrived in Spain while on the run for the Huns.
    Look at this map of the migrations of the Alans during 4th-5th century AD



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

    the Alans were a Scyth tribe

    another possibility is that some E-V13 spread from the Carpathian Basin after 3.7 ka when people from the steppe arrived there
    the Urnfield originated ca 3.3 ka in the Carpathian Basin but that didn't go any further than Catalunia
    I do agree that J2b-M102 mutation is way too old to have anything informative. In addition it likely originated in the Near East.
    But when it comes to Balkans/Europe, I already explained which J2b subclade is present and oldest by diversity there (J2b2-L283). Here it is again since it seems you have missed it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
    IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    In the Balkans and Europe J2b is overwhelmingly represented by J2b2-L283. Its TMRCA is 5900 ybp, but its main expansion started ca. 4400 ybp with main subclade J-Z597:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    This is pretty much the same TMRCA as E-V13 and they also have very similar distributions. However, I wouldn't connect much of the expansion of E-V13 with the ancient Greek world.
    IMO, both of these (E-V13 and J2b2-L283) expanded ca. 4400 ybp out of northern Balkans (Danube area), but of course ancient DNA may tell us something else some day.
    Well, that's certainly a better alternative for E-V13 than out of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in my opinion, which wouldn't explain the particular hot spots of E-V13 in Spain for example. Also, based on IBD there is very little Alan or other barbarian invasion dna in Spain. (post fall of Rome) Neither does it explain the E-V13 in Italy for the most part, or the hot spot around Marseilles. Indeed, Boattini dated E-V13 in Italy to around 300 BC.

    The issue of where it originated, if in Europe, and from whence it first spread, are both separate from a discussion as to whether is spread in the first millennium with Greek colonization. I could see it arising in more northern areas of the Balkans than Greek proper given where we found that ancient sample of a related clade in Sopot.

    Even as long ago as Cavalli Sforza it's been clear that there's been an out of Greece or at least out of the Balkans expansion autosomally.


    Along with ancient dna, we need detailed subclade analysis on the level of that for R1b and R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

    E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

    Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.
    on E-V13 ...............prehistoric in Cyprus

    Conclusions: Analyses of Cypriot haplogroup data are consistent with two stages of prehistoric settlement. E-V13 and E-M34 are widespread, and PCA suggests sourcing them to the Balkans and Levant/Anatolia, respectively. The persistent pre-Greek component is represented by elements of G2-U5(xL30) haplogroups: U5*, PF3147, and L293. J2b-M205 may contribute also to the pre-Greek strata. The majority of R1b-Z2105 lineages occur in both the westernmost and easternmost districts. Distinctively, sub-haplogroup R1b- M589 occurs only in the east. The absence of R1b- M589 lineages in Crete and the Balkans and the presence in Asia Minor are compatible with Late Bronze Age influences from Anatolia rather than from Mycenaean Greeks.
    Voskarides et al., Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements, Investigative Genetics, 20167:1, DOI: 10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8

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    @ Angela & Trojet

    I don't know what expansions into Europe there were from the northern Balkans after 4.3 ka
    Several expansions started from the Carpathian Basin
    Amongst them the Celtic Urnfield and the Italic speaking people.

    Furthermore ca 3.7 ka steppe people arrived in the Carpathian Basin with chariots, trained horses and swords.
    About 50 or 100 years later the Mycenians arrived with the same items in Greece. But in the Balkans it arrived not.
    It is hypothesized all this is has its origins in the Catacomb culture in the steppes, who where later replaced by the Srubnaya people (ancestral to the Cimmerians).

    Before calibrated radiocarbon dating existed it was taught chariots, horse bits and swords were introduced in the Carpatian Basin by the Mycenians, but accurate carbon dating showed this was not the case.

    source : 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe, a book I can recommend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.
    How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

    Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

    Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.
    So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

    Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

    God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.
    In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

    E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit]

    The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...ent_migrations



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

    Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

    God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))
    Here are two posts I wrote on that subject:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...012#post469012
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...094#post472094

    There are at least 50 ancient Y-DNA samples from SE Europe, Anatolia and Near East together. None of them is E-L618.
    Only one of them is E-M78 and it is from Jordan. However E-L618 already existed at the time when that man lived which disqualifies it as potential ancestor. Knowing how wide E-M78 is distributed today that particular sample says almost nothing new about how E-V13 entered Europe.

    If one day it becomes a fact that there are no E-L618(xV13) men living outside of Europe today, for me it would be a hard proof that V13 mutation happened inside Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

    E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit]

    The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...ent_migrations


    Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy.




    I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?
    Perhaps you're privy to a new paper which elucidates who the Illyrians were precisely, and what uniparental lineages they carried? How could I have missed it? I'm absolutely agog to hear about it.

    I'm even more excited to hear that there's a paper on Iron Age Greek genomes and a comparison of them with the colonists in Sicily. Do tell.

    Perhaps you should write a paper yourself explaining your formula for determining that these Sicilian areas, all subject to Greek colonization, somehow differ in their amount of "Greek" ancestry. A word to the wise, however, all of your "samples" would be subject to rigorous scrutiny: they would be checked for place of origin, whether all four grandparents came from the same area, etc. Then, I'm afraid that your standard for determining "Greek" ancestry, absent some ancient Greek genomes, might face "heavy weather", particularly if the only basis for your claims is some admixture calculators on gedmatch. Do you have much experience with dstats and other formal statistical methods? As a last hurdle they would have to be able to replicate the results.

    Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.

    If you have some new information about E-V13, perhaps some new subclade information and dating so that we can track it, that would be helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.
    I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

    It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

    Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.


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