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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.
    That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

    It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

    Maps are not set in stone. Besides that Sicilian history would tell you that populations are not static since 2000 years. There has been lots of movement. That is true to any other

    Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.

    Maps are not set in stone they just give a rough idea and sometimes change too according to more data available. Also populations do not remain static for 2000 years. This is true to any other region

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)
    I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
    What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
    What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.
    And what is relevant to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
    What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.
    I understood what you meant. If you reason that way you cannot believe anything you hear just in case it will change in the future. Things can change yes. They have many times, but right at the moment with what we have available nothing proves otherwise as in regards to E-V13. Its even much much worse to fantasize a hypothesis or theory with even much less evidence. consider it as fact, just in case a theory will be changed sometime in the future ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    And what is relevant to you?
    Opinion of those people which know the phylogeny of E-M78 and which know geographic distribution of its major subbranches like E-Z1919 or E-L618.

    And of course it is very important to understand how did E-V13 expand in Europe. If we don't understand mechanism of expansion there is no way that we can understand what was before it. It should be significantly easier to understand more recent events (expansion) than something what happened earlier (place of origin of E-V13). Even though, no one has so far credibly explained how did E-V13 spread inside Europe.
    Before we get that (explanation of expansion) we can maybe guess about the continent where E-V13 came to being, but we can't be more specific than that. My assumption in which I pretty much believe is that Europe is that continent. Why? Some of the reasons are - because no E-L618(xV13) has been found outside of Europe so far, because diversity of E-V13 subbranches is higher in Northern Europe compared to Southern Europe, because number of E-V13 men outside of Europe is very low compared to the number inside Europe, because ancient DNA results are strongly against scenario of migration from Near East.

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    Something also interesting concerning nucleotid V-13
    totally different than said,

    ok in Sicily we see it mainly at central and at mountains,
    but what about Venice and Genoua? why has increased spot there?

    so the difference among Sicily and venice-genoua shows to me that V-13 at Sicily was an older population before medieval time wars, and found refugge at mountains
    but in Genoua and Venice gathered at fortified areas,
    offcourse someone can say that V-13 gathered at the ports when they were at their glory,
    but if V-13 gathered at the mountains at sicily during the Arab and Normand sauvereign?
    that could say a lot, and surely explains some spots of V-13 as defencive gathering,


    And I want to go it further,
    Cyrrene Cyrenaica,
    was colonised by Greeks,
    But not Carhedona (carthago)
    so at cyrene we find V-13 but at Carhedon?
    so v-13 if V-13 was phoenician-middle eastern, how much should gathered at Carthago?
    except if Scipion Africanus manage to slain them all.

    link
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaica


    Also notice that V-13 is missing from Alps, area of G2a3b and Celts (la Tene and Haalstat)
    so has nothing to with IE expansions, and probably with pure IE populations,
    as also with the expand of G early farmers.

    yet the older E found east of spain is at Konya today Turkey, around 2000 BC
    The Thracian sample is very new almost 2,5 ky from Today
    but the cross/combine of Italians searchers of Ydna E with PC1 is putting it much older from the 2 above at today Bulgaria
    but is a statistical hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)
    Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

    Situation in Neolithic Europe


    We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.

    Today in Europe G has this distribution



    ...
    We can see very different distribution of E-V13 today in Europe, which is not linked with Neolithic but with Bronze age expansion.



    Carries of Bronze age invasion in Europe were Indo Europeans. Thus it is logical to we suppose that E-V13 was minority lineage in Indo European expansion.

    The presence of E-V13 at the Danes, Swedes, Russians, Poles, Belarusians, and other northern peoples would easily explain with the expansion of Indo-Europeans.

    This does not imply where the E-V13 emerged. It is possible that it originated in Anatolia.

    But it may be more important where the R1a and R1b carriers snapped E-V13 carriers in its expansion. At the steppes? On the Armenian and Iranian plateau? On the territory of present-day Romania? In Pannonia? Or where?

    Another important thing is that E-V13 bearers today, all speak Indo-European languages but their original languages were not Indo-European. It can be obvious they are assimilated by Indo Europeans.

    If E-V13 carriers were alone in significant numbers and independent of the Indo Europeans they would preserve their non Indo European languages!

    We can seek non Indo European words that originate from the original language E-V13 carriers merely in traces, and in a small number of today's Indo-European languages where it is possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

    Situation in Neolithic Europe


    We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.
    You (or the map :)) forgot Lengyel and Sopot. Bronze age was a general population boom in Europe. E-V13 been around long enough. There was no written language 7000 years ago, how can one seriously determine a language spoken at that time?

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    Even in Lengyel and Sopot it was sporadically but not dominant. We can discuss about this, it is not crucial. But linguistic issue is very important because it give us base to produce conclusions. E-V13 as a minority lineage have merged with Indo Europeans and expanded with them. Yes, we cannot know languages of E-V13 carriers in the distant past, there is no written evidence. But few people will say that E-V13 carriers are creators of Indo European languages. All the evidence shows that hey are not. They spoke their own languages which have lost by assimilation. And this is not case only with E-V13 carriers, Indo Europeans have expanded and have become dominant over wide areas. None of original languages of E-V13 carriers didn't survive. Or maybe we can look for somewhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Even in Lengyel and Sopot it was sporadically but not dominant. We can discuss about this, it is not crucial. But linguistic issue is very important because it give us base to produce conclusions. E-V13 as a minority lineage have merged with Indo Europeans and expanded with them. Yes, we cannot know languages of E-V13 carriers in the distant past, there is no written evidence. But few people will say that E-V13 carriers are creators of Indo European languages. All the evidence shows that hey are not. They spoke their own languages which have lost by assimilation. And this is not case only with E-V13 carriers, Indo Europeans have expanded and have become dominant over wide areas. None of original languages of E-V13 carriers didn't survive. Or maybe we can look for somewhere?
    I have no doubt that E-V13 is not the carrier of Indo European Languages. That would be a far fetched theory in in my opinion. Anything possible close to that would be (maybe) E-V13 was born (10,000 ybhp?) into a community that spoke an Indo European language as a minority haplogroup. But then we do not even know exactly were e-v13 was born and more and more have less of an idea what that particular group (culture) was like or customs adopted.

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    I think it's time to take a step forward, the V13 Neolithic expansion 'was minima.La real expansion and ' occurred from the age ' of bronzo.Infatti all European tests are positive for haplogroup cts 5856 born 4000 years later than the end V13.Alla expansion and ' took place through the Greek colonization , in Genoa for Focei Greeks .
    On the map it is clear how they stayed away from Tuscany and Sardinia because 'already inhabited by the Etruscans and fenici.La war Alalia pushed them to disperse and to Eleia in Liguria .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    I think it's time to take a step forward, the V13 Neolithic expansion 'was minima.La real expansion and ' occurred from the age ' of bronzo.Infatti all European tests are positive for haplogroup cts 5856 born 4000 years later than the end V13.Alla expansion and ' took place through the Greek colonization , in Genoa for Focei Greeks .
    On the map it is clear how they stayed away from Tuscany and Sardinia because 'already inhabited by the Etruscans and fenici.La war Alalia pushed them to disperse and to Eleia in Liguria .
    You are right ELIOV13. It is clear that the major expansion for E-V13 happened during bronze age. This was a time of a population boom and long distance trading. If not mistaken it spread from the Agean so a possible E-V13 connection would seem possible. However it is also a fact that E-V13 has been around much earlier then this, in the Neolithic, as a minor haplogroup compared say to G or I. We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary. I have no doubt that during the Greek Classical era E-V13 spread further since they have founded many towns with literal migration around the Mediterranean. This would explains well the very low percentages of EV-13 in North Africa due to Greek settlements (Alexandria Egypt? Named for Alexander the great? and many others). And also the higher percentages of E-V13 around the Turkish coast (again clear indication of Greek expansion) meaning an import from the Balkans to these areas (and not the other way round). This would be the reason why one would be inclined that E-V13 was born in Balkan proper and none of the peripheries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    You are right ELIOV13. It is clear that the major expansion for E-V13 happened during bronze age. This was a time of a population boom and long distance trading. If not mistaken it spread from the Agean so a possible E-V13 connection would seem possible. However it is also a fact that E-V13 has been around much earlier then this, in the Neolithic, as a minor haplogroup compared say to G or I.
    Yes, it is evidence, E-V13 is spread in Bronze age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary. I have no doubt that during the Greek Classical era E-V13 spread further since they have founded many towns with literal migration around the Mediterranean.
    E-V13 spread with Greeks and with Indo-Europeans (of course and Greeks are Indo-Europeans too but for understanding different directions).

    For example E-V13 in Saint-Petersburg, Vladivostok, Oslo, Stockholm or Copenhagen is not brought by Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This would explains well the very low percentages of EV-13 in North Africa due to Greek settlements (Alexandria Egypt? Named for Alexander the great? and many others). And also the higher percentages of E-V13 around the Turkish coast (again clear indication of Greek expansion) meaning an import from the Balkans to these areas (and not the other way round). This would be the reason why one would be inclined that E-V13 was born in Balkan proper and none of the peripheries.
    Situation in Neolithic:


    In Neolithic R1b samples dominated in Samara above the Caspian sea, but in Western Europe is completely different situation.

    Today R1b dominates in Western Europe and not above Caspian sea.

    Bearers of haplogroups move and migrate and for various reasons leave the places where they once lived, today's situation can be total different in comparison with 5,000 or 10,000 years ago.

    Where is place of origin of E-V13, there are hypothesis it is Western Asia, Northern Africa, somewhere in Europe, but Western Asia is most probably, as Cruciani et al argue that was about 11 ky ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    For example E-V13 in Saint-Petersburg, Vladivostok, Oslo, Stockholm or Copenhagen is not brought by Greeks.
    indeed, and neither by Romans. I am not very familiar with the history of the regions. As to E-V13 in Scandinavia it seems plausible there was trade between Thrace (already some indications that E was present in Tharce) and Vikings and maybe peoples of those areas. Maybe war? Slaves? I am really not sure.



    Situation in Neolithic:


    In Neolithic R1b samples dominated in Samara above the Caspian sea, but in Western Europe is completely different situation.

    Today R1b dominates in Western Europe and not above Caspian sea.

    Bearers of haplogroups move and migrate and for various reasons leave the places where they once lived, today's situation can be total different in comparison with 5,000 or 10,000 years ago.

    Where is place of origin of E-V13, there are hypothesis it is Western Asia, Northern Africa, somewhere in Europe, but Western Asia is most probably, as Cruciani et al argue that was about 11 ky ago.
    Indeed. Is this the latest map? E from Legyel and sopot from the Hungary area are not listed. And didn't we have some samples from Villa Bruna? Balkans and Italy are totally void of ancient Neolithic samples, and I am under the impression that they could have been some of the most populated regions since we are not far off from the melting of the ice age and this area (Balkans) could have served as some kind of refugium. As climate changed and northern areas became more habitable we would see movements of people. Without dna neolithic sampling from Italy and the Balkans, the picture cannot be complete. Same applies to Near east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    We have no ancient Neolithic samples from Balkan proper, so we are relying on more temperate zones like Northern Spain, France Germany and Hungary.
    There is one from Greece. It was reported in this paper: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...32763.full.pdf . As you can see it was G2a2a1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    There is one from Greece. It was reported in this paper: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...32763.full.pdf . As you can see it was G2a2a1b.
    Interesting and thanks for the link. Tried to look for a more updated map on Neolithic dna but couldn't find any on just a simple google search. I am not sure how people conclude on what to put on their charts. Example I read an article once that a G was found near Stonehenge which was thought to be Neolithic and yet we have no samples from the area on any map. The findings and the reporting are very poorly coordinated it seems, unless there are deeper reasons for it. The Natufian results are also very interesting.

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    For me it is easy to say that our V13 originates in the Cyclades and in the Aegean sea with those civilizations ' minoiche.Non calls were definitely indoeuropei.Avevano very strong ties with Libya and Egitto.A result of decadence and especially after the explosion of Santorini ( Thera ) were conquered by Indo-European populations
    ( Akei ) .With these coalesced into a society ' now called micenea.Piu later came the Dorians , these Indo-Europeans , and probably much Nordici.Le cyclades were much more populated then, there are archaeological findings well on these remarkable prehistoric scattered isole.E all that in greek language came from the sea , was due to loro.Quale best candidate for V13 and maybe J ? And as ' the expansion of a group africano.Gli today's inhabitants of the Greek islands are a little different since then ' cause then suffered the colonization of Akei and Dori .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    For me it is easy to say that our V13 originates in the Cyclades and in the Aegean sea with those civilizations ' minoiche.Non calls were definitely indoeuropei.Avevano very strong ties with Libya and Egitto.A result of decadence and especially after the explosion of Santorini ( Thera ) were conquered by Indo-European populations
    ( Akei ) .With these coalesced into a society ' now called micenea.Piu later came the Dorians , these Indo-Europeans , and probably much Nordici.Le cyclades were much more populated then, there are archaeological findings well on these remarkable prehistoric scattered isole.E all that in greek language came from the sea , was due to loro.Quale best candidate for V13 and maybe J ? And as ' the expansion of a group africano.Gli today's inhabitants of the Greek islands are a little different since then ' cause then suffered the colonization of Akei and Dori .
    I do not think that there are any ancient dna studies on the Cyclades per se (ancient or current), however according to excavations it seems they had a culture that migrated from the East (Anatolia). Further south (Crete and its minion culture) has revealed also that ancient mtdna is similar to that of continental Europe and no connection (at least mtdna) with North Africa or Arabia. Of course there is always the question of how reliable these studies are. However culturally it seems that there has been some affinities with Egyptian and Libyan cultures but according to the studies not so much genetically.

    "The authors therefore conclude that the Minoan civilisation was a local development, originated by inhabitants who probably reached the island around 9,000 years ago, in Neolithic times."


    "The ancient Minoan DNA was most similar to populations from western and northern Europe. The population showed particular genetic affinities with Bronze Age populations from Sardinia and Iberia and Neolithic samples from Scandinavia and France."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22527821



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    I read the article and frankly I 'seemed very superficiale.Sopratutto when it concludes that the ancient inhabitants of Crete are the same as attuali.Quali? Because haplogroup most represented and' J2 34% E1b1b1 and 'the second with 11% and R1b and '9% probably Akei follows R1a probably Dorico.Poi G2a. Then more we go to the Cyclades more haplogroup E increases. Then, just 3700 years ago there were great changes .A probable invasion from Anatolia (perhaps G2a) and the destruction of buildings .Terremoti preceding the eruption of Thera. From the point of view of the Y dna the Minoans, in my opinion, were J2A E1b1b1 and G2a. Returning to our. V13 very isolated from its initial context (M78) had the Z1919 mutations, L618 right in the Aegean Sea in close correlation with the people Pelasgian pre Greeks, not indoeuropei.V13 has always had a lot to do with mare.Pian plan colonize ' even the Peloponnese Thessaly, the Attic and tracia.Fu then crushed by the Indo-European invasions of 2600 forward cristo.Ma its fast expansion I see after the mutation in cts 5856 (4000 years or so after V13) ancestor of almost all E europei.L'eruzione of Thera around 1640 before christ) was preceded by strong earthquakes that did migrate from the cyclades to the many inhabitants continent .And i think it inizio'la diaspora to form the illirici.Arrivarono peoples then Akei, you melted for about four centuries beginning the company 'Mycenaean called by archeologi.Le Doric invasions after the trojan war created divisions and sectarianism in society' greca.Si arrival 'then the classical period and the colonies and our V13 expanded into throughout the Mediterranean where I 'not yet organized populations or entering into conflict, thus steering clear as in the case of Focei populations arrived from a politico.Laziali consolidation, Etruscan etc. I see it so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    I read the article and frankly I 'seemed very superficiale.Sopratutto when it concludes that the ancient inhabitants of Crete are the same as attuali.Quali? Because haplogroup most represented and' J2 34% E1b1b1 and 'the second with 11% and R1b and '9% probably Akei follows R1a probably Dorico.Poi G2a. Then more we go to the Cyclades more haplogroup E increases. Then, just 3700 years ago there were great changes .A probable invasion from Anatolia (perhaps G2a) and the destruction of buildings .Terremoti preceding the eruption of Thera. From the point of view of the Y dna the Minoans, in my opinion, were J2A E1b1b1 and G2a. Returning to our. V13 very isolated from its initial context (M78) had the Z1919 mutations, L618 right in the Aegean Sea in close correlation with the people Pelasgian pre Greeks, not indoeuropei.V13 has always had a lot to do with mare.Pian plan colonize ' even the Peloponnese Thessaly, the Attic and tracia.Fu then crushed by the Indo-European invasions of 2600 forward cristo.Ma its fast expansion I see after the mutation in cts 5856 (4000 years or so after V13) ancestor of almost all E europei.L'eruzione of Thera around 1640 before christ) was preceded by strong earthquakes that did migrate from the cyclades to the many inhabitants continent .And i think it inizio'la diaspora to form the illirici.Arrivarono peoples then Akei, you melted for about four centuries beginning the company 'Mycenaean called by archeologi.Le Doric invasions after the trojan war created divisions and sectarianism in society' greca.Si arrival 'then the classical period and the colonies and our V13 expanded into throughout the Mediterranean where I 'not yet organized populations or entering into conflict, thus steering clear as in the case of Focei populations arrived from a politico.Laziali consolidation, Etruscan etc. I see it so.
    The bronze age no doubt has seen a rapid expansion of E-V13 and there is little doubt that this happened in the Balkans with its very intricate prehistory and history, the million dollar question would remain as to when E-V13 was mutated and in which area? West Asia? Balkan proper? (which I believe) North Africa (which I really do not think so) We seem to have a number of ancient studies in relation to Mtdna in the Balkans but not so much Ydna, so one can just speculate unfortunately.

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    There are, however, 'some fixed points.
    Haplogroup "E" definitely comes from the southern Mediterranean, not 'indoors it' speak a language indoeuropea.In asia especially to the east did not have a real expansion unless the anatoliche.Ha coasts much to do with the trafficking and with the events related to the sea that you will find anywhere in the colonies greche.E definitely had a espansiona from the Balkans meaning with this also the current Greece until Creta.Nella region now called Greece lived before the arrival of the "Indo-Greeks "populations with language unknown to us now that we know under the name of Pelasgians, Leleges, dear etc.Il ns V13 without risking losing a million dollars was born in that stock, with the sea that isolated him from his African ancestors, and from 'asia.Tutto leaning towards the West, where today and' the present 90% circa.Ho read somewhere that the more genetic variables has its own in Greece confirming 'them most antichita'.Sopratutto in Kosovo there was' a lucky expansion due to the founder, but then one can not speak of Albania and then not discuss Pelasgi Illiri.Se and then we have to discuss numbers have many, many more EV13 Italy than the small Kosovo or Macedonia or albania or bulgaria.In Italy arrived by mare.Tutti.Addirittura Umbrian and part of the Venetians, Pugliesi by Illiri.nel Tirreno by Anatolian Focei up to Liguria and Marseille, Nice, Genoa etc.For not speak of Sicily, calabria , campania with dallla greece and continental migrations from egee.Li islands, unless you look at the percentages, EV13 has much importanti.Se numbers we consider that migrants of Italian origin living abroad especially Southerners are not less than 60/70 million abitanti.Ci we make it so 'account that today the real territory with more and V13' the Italia.Anche though I realize that the real starting broth was certainly the Balkans with Greece confirming the accredited history of the movement from south-east to the west of all these peoples constantly mediterranei.Io to think so '

  23. #173
    Earl Maleth's Avatar
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    22-03-14
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ELIOV13 View Post
    There are, however, 'some fixed points.
    Haplogroup "E" definitely comes from the southern Mediterranean, not 'indoors it' speak a language indoeuropea.In asia especially to the east did not have a real expansion unless the anatoliche.Ha coasts much to do with the trafficking and with the events related to the sea that you will find anywhere in the colonies greche.E definitely had a espansiona from the Balkans meaning with this also the current Greece until Creta.Nella region now called Greece lived before the arrival of the "Indo-Greeks "populations with language unknown to us now that we know under the name of Pelasgians, Leleges, dear etc.Il ns V13 without risking losing a million dollars was born in that stock, with the sea that isolated him from his African ancestors, and from 'asia.Tutto leaning towards the West, where today and' the present 90% circa.Ho read somewhere that the more genetic variables has its own in Greece confirming 'them most antichita'.Sopratutto in Kosovo there was' a lucky expansion due to the founder, but then one can not speak of Albania and then not discuss Pelasgi Illiri.Se and then we have to discuss numbers have many, many more EV13 Italy than the small Kosovo or Macedonia or albania or bulgaria.In Italy arrived by mare.Tutti.Addirittura Umbrian and part of the Venetians, Pugliesi by Illiri.nel Tirreno by Anatolian Focei up to Liguria and Marseille, Nice, Genoa etc.For not speak of Sicily, calabria , campania with dallla greece and continental migrations from egee.Li islands, unless you look at the percentages, EV13 has much importanti.Se numbers we consider that migrants of Italian origin living abroad especially Southerners are not less than 60/70 million abitanti.Ci we make it so 'account that today the real territory with more and V13' the Italia.Anche though I realize that the real starting broth was certainly the Balkans with Greece confirming the accredited history of the movement from south-east to the west of all these peoples constantly mediterranei.Io to think so '
    I agree with you on many fronts and I believe the Southern Balkans is a likely candidate to be its cradle. I believe that the current distribution is more linked with a bronze age distribution, which I would consider part 2 of the E-V13 story. The mutation of E-V13 can go back even up to another 3/5 thousand years as we have proof from the Late neolithic cave in Northern Spain. We also have ancient E samples as old from Hungary Sopot and Lengyel, so we know that E-V13 has been roaming around since these times. Its irrelevant wether these are singletons or scouts as they are sometimes called, the fact is they were there and proved. As I stated before we do not have any reliable ancient dna samples from the Southern Balkans so it makes the whole story inconclusive. Thrace and Bulgaria in General can also have an interesting link with E-V13 evolution and some papers suggested as I have posted before that: Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints

    All mainstream papers/studies suggest a west asian entry of either E-V13 proper or its precursor with a mere alternative suggestion which has not really taken ground.

  24. #174
    Banned
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Nobody can be sure about the origin and when it spread around Europe as of yet, but I would propose to consider anthropology as a helping factor.

    In my opinion the spread of E-V13 clearly indicates that it represented an old population being "pushed to corners" by constant migration waves and invasions, seeking mostly mountainous refugias.

    The perfect area to analyze is the Balkans due to the more conservative societies, especially in the Western Balkans.

    We know for a fact that its highest concentration is in the mountainous areas of North Albania, Western Kosovo, and Southern Montenegro, inhabited by people being predominantly of the so-called Dinaric type.

    Now my theory is that E-V13 has been there long enough to represent the same subrace as the I2a and J2b, meaning the three haplogroups intermixed to the extent of becoming almost identical physically and appearance wise, thus possibly giving birth to the local variant known as Dinaric/Epirotic/Adriatic.

    The same applies for the mountainous regions of North-Western Bulgaria and Romania where the majority of E-V13 is concentrated and the Dinaric race is more prevalent. Even further, the presence of E-V13 together with a "higher than normal" Dinaric race in Ukraine makes its history similar to the southern mountainous regions.

    Other regions to consider are the Peloponnese in Southern Greece and although most of the Dinarics in Greece are located in these mountainous regions, I am only using the example of Peloponnese as an indicator of a mountainous E-V13 population.

    Furthermore, we can add to the the analysis South Italy where despite it being predominantly a Mediterranean region racially, the prevalence of Dinaric-Mediterranean type is very high. The same applies to Lazio and some Northern regions of Italy.

    My hypothesis does have limitations in Italy as the the populations are not as homogeneous as in the Balkans, meaning that the level of industrialization will definitely make it harder to link a certain haplogroup with specific migrations, as people moved around from cities to mountains to fields and vice versa more often than in the Balkans. For instance since Yetos mentioned Venice, that to me is a clear indication of Medieval Albanian and Greek settlers. Part of my own family settled initially in Venice and then spread in several Northern Italian cities after the Ottoman invasion.

    So its concentration in the mountains and even distribution in Italy in my opinion does indicate a pre Bronze Age distribution and not a massive Bronze Age spread or more recent Greek colonization.

    Basically, I see the E-V13 everywhere in Europe as a relatively old people, being racially "hunter gatherers" (or at least a hybrid variant) and linguistically IE like the very people that pushed them to the aforementioned refugias, and not at all the reason why South Italy is so dolichocephalic as Maciamo believes.

  25. #175
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Country: USA - New York



    The fact remains, Nik, that an examination of the yDna shows a massive expansion in the Bronze Age. Somehow, they got very lucky at that time.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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