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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The fact remains, Nik, that an examination of the yDna shows a massive expansion in the Bronze Age. Somehow, they got very lucky at that time.
    Of course, I am not disagreeing that it did spread during the Bronze Age as well, and massively also. I am not a supporter of any theory that tries to disprove another unless the facts have a 100% match and cover 100% of the puzzles.

    Based on what I said in the previous post, I believe and see as reasonable the fact that E-V13 spread slowly and evenly since Mesolithic and then it had a peak period during the Bronze Age. So the idea is that this Bronze Age boom within a few hundred years can never be larger than a slow constant spread of thousands of years

    Furthermore, I take the yDna examinations with a grain of salt as I cant yet understand how reliable their estimations are. My confusion could be due to my ignorance on the subject, but then again even the current scientists themselves cannot claim they're 100% right either. All I see is them estimating something and then being crushed by new findings, which makes me think if I should ever bother reading estimates and theories anymore. I'd better be waiting for actual findings and extensive ancient dna tests. So based on continuous experiences, there is a very high possibility that their methods are not that legit.

    Just for curiosity, what is ur opinion on the correlation between E-V13, its high prevalence in mountainous regions and the link to a brachycephalic ancient population?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know enough of the details of population movement in the Balkans to comment with any authority about it's distribution.

    In terms of Italy I'm not convinced E-V13 does have a predominantly mountainous distribution.

    We can take a look at Maciamo's map:


    Apulia is flat. The same goes for the lowland Veneto. Or take Liguria: yes, it's very mountainous, but from what I've seen it is the coastal areas which are high in E-V13. As soon as you get up into the mountains of the Ligurian Appennines, the Alpi Apuani, the Tosco-Emilianp Appennines, you start getting very high percentages of R1b.

    Or, take a look at the hot spots in Spain or the central European plain.

    Again in terms of Italy, Boattini et al and Sarno et al, which only took a representative sample of people with regional surnames, found that the arrival of E-V13 in Italy was relatively recent, i.e. first millennium BC., which ties in very well with the Greek expansion and the Greek trading empire. Now, I'm not saying that there couldn't have been "older" or more upstream E-V13, or its precursors in Italy at an earlier date. I'm just saying that the clades which expanded in the Bronze Age most probably didn't originate in Italy, and reached it later.

    As to whether they were more brachy in skull shape than the original Neolithic farmers, I don't know. We now have precursors to E-V13 in early Neolithic Spain, and in Hungary in Sopot and Lengyel in the Middle to Late Neolithic transition. We have E-V13 (or is it precursors?) in the Near East. Someone should see if the measurements for these skulls are available for them and for remains from roughly the same eras, but different yDna haplogroups. That's the only way we'd know, yes?

    This is from another thread, but I think it's still pertinent, and there are good links:

    (I don't know whether these maps have been updated since 2013.)
    I'd be sure to take a look at the two Boattini studies, and as mentioned above, the Trombetta 2015 paper, but if you want your tables to be accurate there are many studies on the issue. (It's important to actually read the Trombetta paper, and the others for that matter. Just listing the varieties doesn't go all that far in analyzing the data.)

    Boattini et al:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

    This is actually Sarno et al, but Boattini is one of the authors:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0096074-t001

    (One needs to be mindful that these are small samples so it wouldn't do to conclude, for example, that a large number of E-M81 people settled in Emilia-Romagna. One also has to remember that these clades came at different times from different places, and some of them are very minor in terms of frequency.)

    Trombetta et al:
    http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/7/1940.full

    The Boattini papers were discussed here, and there's some good analysis if I say so myself. :)
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29

    Of course, all of this analysis was before the discovery of J2 and E-V13 in the Neolithic Balkans 4700 BC, or J2 in a Bronze Age warrior, which makes us look very prescient indeed. :)

    I haven't been reading this thread for a while, so I don't know if someone posted a link to the study of Cypriot yDna. E-V13 is discussed in that context.
    Voskarides et al:
    https://investigativegenetics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8
    Last edited by Angela; 29-09-16 at 20:42.


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    Thanks for the very informative link re Cypriot dna. There defiantly are some interesting points observed in regards to E-V13 and luckily has been dealt with extensively too. We seem to be drifting further and further away from an E-V13 crossing (island hopping) directly from North Africa as it has been suggested.

    quote - In Europe, certain sub-haplogroups of G and specifically E-V13 were detected in ancient DNA, including Linear Band Keramik (LBK) remains from Central Europe (ca. 8000 y BP), Epicardial skeletons from Iberia (7000 y BP), South of France Late Neolithic (5000 y BP), and a Tyrol specimen (5300 y BP) [77, 78, 79, 80].- end quote

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8

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    2014 study

    On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans
    [53][54] and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8].

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

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    hi guys,
    I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, and my father came from a very tribal-closed area in Marsh-Arabs, located in south Iraq. My mtDNA is H14. Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
    MJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by M0thana View Post
    hi guys,
    I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, and my father came from a very tribal-closed area in Marsh-Arabs, located in south Iraq. My mtDNA is H14. Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
    MJ
    Hello there Mothana, nice to meet you. Welcome to Eupedia. Your E-V13 lineage only corresponds to your surname; so your E-V13 ancestor came from your father's father's father's father's fathers.... etc. In order to find out your ancestry, I'd look into the history of your family's tribe and the ancient peoples whom settled in your province; since ancient civilizations tended to absorb and assimilate eachother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    2014 study

    On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans
    [53][54] and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8].

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074
    Very interesting study


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    Indeed

    Indeed. This map really isn't right either. I'd like to see haplogroup data out of Italy that takes into account e1b1b sub-clade. People are being lazy when they put all that E-V13 in Sicily. They see e1b1b & infer it's V-13. Actually, in much of western Italy (Sicily included) it turns out that it's not. There is in fact not so much of it there from what I've seen. There is plenty of e1b1b (12-20%), but half of it or more is not -V13. The E-V13 actually clusters in the east of Italy (stretching all the way to Venice). There, especially along the coast & in the coastal provinces, it's also 12-20% e1b1b, but 80%+ of that e1b1b is -V13. Your Illyrian point is spot-on, or the E-V13 could predate the Illyrians. Perhaps the same mesolithic or early neolithic settlers that settled Greece & the Balkans settled the east coast of Italy.

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    That's a fantastic post. It comports with my views exactly. People can only think unidirectionally. E-V13 did not rapidly expand. It was in SE Europe for a long time (Vinca, Greek, Cucuteni) when successive waves of R1B & R1A invaded. It got pushed to the periphery. On the other hand I'm not sure I'm ready to give E-V13 a physical type at all. But judging by its group members, I think there may be some mental characteristics that define the group ("militant" comes to mind--- Sparta, Hitler, Napoleon).

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    That's a bait & switch. M78 diversity is not V13 diversity. There is very little V13 & very little V13 diversity in North Africa. There is far more of both in Europe. Most parsimonious explanation therefore is that E-V13 is not North African in origin. Nobody is arguing E-M78 is not North African. But E-V13, a specific sub-clade of M-78, is not. It's likely European or Anatolian in origin. In short, we known E-M78 was birthed in southern Egypt. E-V13 was most likely not.

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    Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zim Nezaj View Post
    Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
    Cheers
    Start reading this and things should clear up:
    http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Western Anatolia/Northern Levant and spread into the Balkans rapidly during the neolithic, or possibly a little later. Seems to be quite frequent in Italy, to a lesser extent in Spain (was in Neolithic Spain). West of Austria the level drops of quite a bit when you reach Germany.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zim Nezaj View Post
    Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
    Cheers
    Dream on man


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I do still wonder when all the E-V13 in southern Germany and the Tyrol arrived, and from where. There's no record of actual Greek migration there.
    I found very interesting that the oldest E-V13 sample is found in Spain is dated ~7000 years ago, but its closest parent, the L-618 is found in Dalmacia , Croatia dated ~500 years earlier. Seems to me that E-V13 spread out in EU long before greeks and romans, but certainly Greeks and Romans may have contributed further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M0thana View Post
    hi guys,
    I just tested my Y-DNA and turns to be V-13, I am from Iraq, Anyone can help me figure out where did my ancestors come from?
    MJ
    FTDNA Y-DNA matches or haplogroup origin matches may give you a clue. You can upload your STR Results to YSearch.com and try your luck there. As far as I remember from history books, balkan fed Ottoman army with a steady stream of soldiers for centuries. Or it could be much earlier than that.

    As more people test, more info will be available for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zim Nezaj View Post
    Hi, i recently did DNA testing with ancestory & 23&me and i came up E-V13 ... I'm Albanian and we never mixed with any other race, in fact i came out 87.2% Balkan, 95% southern European with that being said we are Illyrians, Dardanian, Albanian, it also mind boggles me how Ancient Greek is always mentioned whereas Ancient greek is in Fact Albanian and no one admits too it but DNA doesn't lie.... i also just did the family tree YDNA-67 and will post my results in Bloodlines of Albanians research.
    Cheers
    You idiot and a disgrace to us Albanians, Ancient Greek isn’t Albanian, but most likely that marker is Pelasgian in origin, maybe that marker came with the sea people.


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    I have a theory Haplogroup E-v13 might be the original sea people Haplogroup, Or Pelasgian Haplogroup...


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    Quote Originally Posted by valentinavalley2 View Post
    I have a theory Haplogroup E-v13 might be the original sea people Haplogroup, Or Pelasgian Haplogroup...


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    You have a theory?? Hundreds of people for the past 10 years have proposed links of E-V13 with Pelasgians. But those people likely did not call themselves Pelasgians. Pelasgian seems like a Greek corruption which designated several different peoples. But real people were Pelastians, as attested by the older name of Strymon river- Palaistinos, by the Egyptian description of the "PRST", by the Philistines themselves.

    Yes some V13 clades might have a direct link with Pelastians as clades such as E-FGC44169, which is very diverse in the Middle East, includes one clade in Druze. Those might be descendants of Philistines, and interestingly on the Balkan E-FGC44169 is very diverse to the East of Palaistinos river. As Strumon likely carried name Palaistinos in LBA when Pelastians were among Sea Peoples this might be a direct link. Also among Philistines the only authentic Philistine by Y-DNA was R-M269+. In the same area Y5586 subclade of Z2103 has also great diversity.

    E-FGC44169 has a TMRCA of 4200 ybp and E-Y5586 has a TMRCA of 4300 ybp, and interestingly Ossetians have basal E-Y5586 and E-CTS1273 which might signify these moved together at some point.

    So Strymon might have carried name Palaistinos from 4300 ybp to 3200 ybp or so. According to some linguists Pelasgian language was very similar to Thracian in phonology. And E-CTS1273 would fit nicely there unless Thracian arrived in Late Bronze Age during the Bronze Age collapse.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 31-10-19 at 21:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You have a theory?? Hundreds of people for the past 10 years have proposed links of E-V13 with Pelasgians. But those people likely did not call themselves Pelasgians. Pelasgian seems like a Greek corruption which designated several different peoples. But real people were Pelastians, as attested by the older name of Strymon river- Palaistinos, by the Egyptian description of the mas "PRST", by the Philistines themselves.

    Yes some V13 clades might have a direct link with Pelastians as clades such as E-FGC44169 which is very diverse in the Middle East, includes one clade in Druze. Those might be descendants of Philistines, and interestingly on the Balkan E-FGC44169 is very diverse to the East of Palaistinos river. As Strumon likely carried name Palaistinos in LBA when Pelastians were among Sea Peoples his might be a direct link. Also among Philistines the only authentic Philistine by Y-DNA was R-M269+. In the same area Y5586 subclade of Z2103 has also great diversity.

    E-FGC44169 has a TMRCA of 4200 ybp and E-Y5586 has a TMRCA of 4300 ybp, and interestingly Ossetians have basal E-Y5586 and E-CTS1273 which might signify these moved together at some point.

    So Strymon might have carried name Palaistinos from 4300 ybp to 3200 ybp or so. According to some linguists Pelasgian language was very similar to Thracian in phonology. And E-CTS1273 would fit nicely there unless Thracian arrived in Late Bronze Age during the Bronze Age collapse.
    Haplogroup E is actually very common in the Levant, but J is dominant there... and lol some Lebanese and some Palestinians can pass as Greeks and Albanians...


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    So, guys, a lot of very interesting theories and notes on this subject, just spent 2 hours reading the thread, but one thing is missing here for sure (in contrast with real great minds here also): a damn clear concise OPTION TREE for the E-V13 origins and spreading. Because this is so important for human knowledge; it's an established fact that old greek civilization was the base of the western modern ones and old greek civilization are equal more or less with E-V13 marker. From here our modern world was established. And we still can't provide an viable OPTION TREE. Is somebody willing to do this for the sake of humanity, please ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoJ View Post
    So, guys, a lot of very interesting theories and notes on this subject, just spent 2 hours reading the thread, but one thing is missing here for sure (in contrast with real great minds here also): a damn clear concise OPTION TREE for the E-V13 origins and spreading.
    If E-V13 began its demographic boom from the Western Balkans, then it began this boom with Cetina culture, pretty much no ifs and no buts.
    1. E-L618+ find from Early Dalmatian Impresso is there, 6000 BC
    2. Few confirmed and likely L618+, V13- in Western Balkans area are there.
    3. The spread of one of earliest splits at the V13 level, E-Y30977>Y37092 , TMRCA 4300 ybp mirrors the Cetina culture in spread.

    The dominant V13 clade CTS1273 does not resemble Cetina culture much but Cetina culture died out in its native area without any clear inheritors. But before than it had daughter cultures to the East: Belotić-Bela Crkva, Bubanj Hum III and Armenochori, who very likely played part in further spreading of CTS1273 clades.

    There are other good arguments in support of this but I won't post that on an internet forum..

    Maybe a case with Cucuteni-Trypillia culture could be made because of one E-M78 being found there, and diversity in those areas, but the undeniable presence of E-L618 in Dalmatia, coupled with clear evidence that as some archaeologists put it that this element was stubbornly keeping itself in life until the Calcolithic age, with this BA Cetina culture which certainly had a substrate of this old Neolithic element makes the connection with Cucuteni-Trypillia culture less likely.
    Clearly in Neolithic context the home of E-L618+ was Eastern Adriatic coast more precisely Dalmatia (Impresso, Danilo and Hvar cultures), anything else is just a stray L618+ who wandered off from the Adriatic coast.. This was obvious even few years ago. It was immediately apparent that E-L618 has little to do with the main Continental Neolithic complex but rather with Cardial/Impresso.

  23. #198
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    Such interesting writes, thank you for the great read from Silverbird

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E - V 13

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    A few days ago I have got result that my Y haplogroup is E- V13 (still I dont have a precise results of my sublades of V13). Origin of my fathers family is from Lower Neretva area, especialy town Ljubuski and area around. My ancestor who converted to islam lived in that area cc 1554. (he was mentioned in one ottoman document Vacufnama), so I supposed that they are aboriginal in Lower Neretva and southern Herzegovina. Your idea that origin for E - V13 is Cetina culture is very interesting, because it is region close to southern Herzegovina, but it is historical fact that Lower Neretva was zone of greek colonisation (in town Narona), and Ljubuski area was zone of colonisation of veterans of roman legions (VII. legio CPF)i auxiliares units.

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    Really thank you, pal. Despite the fact you're on point with the response, it isn't what i was talking about. An OPTIONAL genographic TREE is much more....much. I know would require some time to do it, but for a truly scientific approach must have an analytic/mathematical one. Where the presence of IF, AND, OR, ELSE, THEN, etc to be used like in a basic computer language. I'm not so seasoned with those specific genetic notions in relation with history, and for that I ask for a good reference from you to indicate me. I mean a comprehensive notions about haplogroups related to age, geographic distributions, cultures, historical ages, etc.....to make myself some sort of a grand-picture about all of that. Off course, in light with recent discoveries. I searched a lot the Internet and can't find an unitary approach, only bits of information about some and some others. When take into consideration the relation between specific cultures and subcultures, things get really messy and almost nobody can trace a distinct analytic picture. Maybe some books you can suggest....Example; the kurgan culture of north pontic area extended to the balkans and came into contact with already present ones, but approximate ages and time in relating with the continuity of the extension I can't find via Google. When Kurgan culture meet E-L618+ of the adriatic coast ? And thus the ancestors of the greeks (if we can speak about E-L618+ as an ancestor of those). And so on....
    Thanks anyway for your time and response.

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