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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    The latest Roman study may be an indication what were the haplogroups of the Ancient Greeks and later Greek world, too. It is obvious E-V13 or even other subclades of E1b1b1 were only a minor haplogroups among them, J2a and J1 reign supreme, along with G2a and T1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The latest Roman study may be an indication what were the haplogroups of the Ancient Greeks and later Greek world, too. It is obvious E-V13 or even other subclades of E1b1b1 were only a minor haplogroups among them, J2a and J1 reign supreme, along with G2a and T1.
    Yep, I would have to agree.

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    Really, after spending all your time here private messaging instead of posting, this is what you came up with?

    Unbelievable.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I belong to Y-DNA E-V13 Berisha-Sopi cluster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post
    Ancient samples of E-V13 is also not found anywhere in the Levant. And it’s also almost non-existent among Neolithic farmers. All E in the Levant is non E-M78. The only explanation that makes sense is that E-M78 migrated to Europe directly from North Africa in the Mesolithic or even prior to that.

    Where do you think it came from?

    not true check this
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...ent-near-east/
    while most of them were indeed e-z830 and e-m123
    there is one e-m78 in PPNB remain
    I1710 Levant PPNB E1b1b1a1-CTS675 calls

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Honestly, how do they think it probably got to Europe????

    Dropped from a spaceship? SHEESH!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post
    Fisherman from North Africa. We already know that iberomaurusian (the only culture where the father clade to E-V13 was found) culture had contact with european Cro magnon because their mtdna was european cromagnon in many samples.
    I don:t think it's directly from North Africa.

    It's rather from Egypt > Levant > Anatolia > Balkans.

    E-M78 and it's cousin Y-DNA that Natufians carried were the pioneers of farming.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post
    There is no proof of this. E-V13 came directly from E-M78 it doesn’t come from its cousin Natufian branch and E-M78 is almost non existent in ancient levant. There were no Levant cultures that had a large amount of E-M78 that could have brought it into Europe during the Neolithic or later.


    “Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).”

    This is literally the only parent clade ever found to E-V13.
    I already know that E-V13 is a descendant of E-M78. It's not rocket science to realize that. And i know that E-V13 with the Natufians share more distant common E-M35.

    What i mean is that, Druze people in Levant do have E-V13. Let's see. Maybe we will find the immediate parent of E-V13 somewhere in East Anatolia. We don't know. The scenario posed by some people that western Iberomaurusians migrated to Iberia or Sicilia and from Sicilia to Balkans seems like funny made up stories.

    Also, don't forget a sample from Neolithic Barcin Hoyuk from Anatolia is E-M35, i bet his downstream is E-M78.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post
    There is no proof of this. E-V13 came directly from E-M78 it doesn’t come from its cousin Natufian branch and E-M78 is almost non existent in ancient levant. There were no Levant cultures that had a large amount of E-M78 that could have brought it into Europe during the Neolithic or later.


    “Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient individuals from the Iberomaurusian Grotte des Pigeons site near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that all males belonged to haplogroup E1b1b, common among Afroasiatic males. The male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the paternal haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78), with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, one male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).”

    This is literally the only parent clade ever found to E-V13.
    E-L618, the father clade of V13, has been found in two Neolithic European sites so far. M78 was also found in Neolithic Hungary and Ukraine.

    1. E-L618 from Zemunica cave, Croatia. Sample belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture and was dated to have lived between 7,600-7,400ybp
    2. E-L618 from Veszprem, Hungary. Sample belonged to the Lengyel Culture, dated to have lived between 6,780-6,700ybp
    3. E-M78 from the outskirts of Budapest, Hungary. Belonged to the Sopot Culture, dated to have lived around 7,000-6,800ybp
    4. E-M78 from Verteba cave, Ukraine. Belonged to the Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture, dated to have lived around 6,000-5,000ybp
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    What i mean is that, Druze people in Levant do have E-V13.
    The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.

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    Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.

    When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.

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    Or: THE ORIGIN AND SPREAD OF THE LATE MESOLITHIC BLADE AND TRAPEZE INDUSTRIES IN EUROPE...

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f63...eb1bdaf0db.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some people have nothing better to do than fantasize scenarios for which they have absolutely no proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    When someone finds that Iberomaurusian sample in Iberia or Sicily far enough back in time to count let me know. Until then I'll stick with the more probable scenario.


    I don't know in what context you refer, i said i have read people wild-guessing that Iberomaurusians hopped from North Africa to Sicilia and then to Balkans which there is absolutely no proof of. Also, there is a proof from a Serbian archeologist that certain Montenegrin Late Mesolithic culture has some Iberomaurusian features, and the race of the people was a tall Mediterranean. Iberomaurusians or their eastern brethren which might be the parent of E-V13 had robust features and were considerably tall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The V13 found in the Middle East and West Asia is primarily of recent European origin. They all belong to rather recent downstreams that originated and expanded out of Europe. The only groups that I have come across whom have a more basal V13 are the Ossetians and some Kurds, who are CTS1273*. But even this E-CTS1273* is of European input as it surely arrived with IE speakers.
    That might be the case, but right now we are talking about different context. How the parent of E-V13 entered Europe. It's a huge mistery right now.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

    How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.

    I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

    Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.

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    also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

    Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

    Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b
    Many M78+ aDNA samples have been found. I was just listing the V13- samples which were found in Neolithic Europe.

    V13 aDNA:
    1) E-V13 from Avellaner cave, Spain. Belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, dated to have lived ~7,000ybp
    2) E-CTS1273 from Glinoe, Moldova. Labelled as being a Scythian, though auDNA suggests that he was a Dacian. Recently confirmed to have lived between 400-200 BCE
    3) E-Z1919 (likely V13+) from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. Was a Thracian who lived during the Iron Age, 2,800-2,500ybp
    4) E-V13 from Crypta Balbi (Rome), Italy. Was a Roman who lived during late Antiquity, 1,600-1,400ybp
    5) E-V13 from Karos, Hungary. Sample was from the Conqueror period, 1,105-1,050ybp
    6) E-V13 from Szekkutas, Hungary. Sample was from the Middle-Late Avar period, 1,350-1,290ybp
    7) E-V13 from Collegno, Italy. Sample was a Langobard (Lombard), dated to have lived between 1,500-1,400ybp
    8) E-V13 from Girona, Spain. If I recall correctly this sample was labelled as being a Goth, though in terms of auDNA he was very Southern shifted and resembled Balkanites
    9) E-V13 from Huescar, Spain. Dated between 1,000-900ybp
    10) E-V13 from Cancelleria (Rome), Italy. Dated between 583-537ybp
    11) E-L540 (Predicted) from Hradek nad Nisou, Czechia. Dated ~700ybp
    12) E-V13 from Bogovej, Denmark. Sample was labelled as being a Viking, however autosomally was Southern shifted. 1,100-1,000ybp

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    Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

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    E-M78 didn't look like Sub-Saharans or Middle Easternes or Europeans.

    They were part of Mechta-Afalou, Mechtoid race.

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    Kelemandasi
    thanks 👍
    Up until now the avellander cave guy is the earliest e-v13 in europan ancient remain(so i thought it is important to mention him)😉
    Dosas i think by the time they reached europe
    they could have looked like regular med people...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.
    Un po di abbronzzatura non a mai fato male a nessuno. Anche Barak era un po abronzato për Berlusconi.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

    How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.


    I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

    Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.


    The best scenario is West Asia. E V13 is an indo European clade. Together with R and J. Rome also adds to this scenario.

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    It is no fantasy whatsoever that E-V13 arrived to Europe directly from North Africa, and that it did not arrive from Levant. This is pre-history and those without archaeological knowledge are basically blind..


    So..


    There exists archaeological evidence for such migration, in the form of Capsian elements in Late Mesolithic site Crvena Stijena III in modern West Montenegro. What is interesting is that this particular site had direct connections to the site where L618 was found in Dalmatia. 100 % people from Crvena Stijena also participated in some form in Cardial Dalmatian Neolithic culture. Dalmatian Neolithic is known to have had some Meoslithic influence, also autosomally seen in one sample there with a bunch of blue eye mutations and WHG influence.
    To quote Yugoslav archaeologist Borivoj Čović:
    The culture of Mesolithic inhabitants of Crvena Stijena is firmly tied to the contemporary cultures of Northern Africa, especially to those of so-called Capsian type... The congruence in shapes of a large number of smaller tools (out of which some are highly specialized tools for fine processing of skin and bones) are of such degree that they do not leave much space to doubt, and primarily Northafrican origin not only of these forms but also of the Mesolithic population of Crvena Stijena.


    Furthermore going by current genetic evidence the Dalmatian Cardial sample is negative to two SNP's at the L618 level, that in addition to their current spread might be used as evidence to suggest all of current L618, V13- samples are of European origin. For one L618 clade that already seems obvious. Second clade has Latvian-Lebanese connection but this connection is not Neolithic it is 4800 years old. So either the Lebanese is a descendant of L618 who stayed in Levant or he arrived in EBA from Europe, considering the current evidence latter is more likely.


    Interestingly as I mentioned here, there was a skull cult throughout the Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic, without any doubt this pratice is something that was very important to those people. The problem is its origin is unclear. First connotation were Natufians but typologically it resembles more the Mesolithic practices found in Iron Gates culture as well as in some Croatian late Mesolithic sites. As Iberomaurusians and Capsians also showed signs of special treatment of skulls, so direct North African connotation of this cult cannot be excluded.


    Additionally in Dalmatian Neolithic the burial practice of leaving the deceased, except chiefs, to be unburied and eaten by wild animals in wilderness has been compared to Maasai by a Yugoslav archaeologist.


    But think of this, if E-V13 did arrive from Levant in Neolithic as part of Cardial Pottery wave, then this skull cult descends of Natufians, and because of its importance it can be postulated that the E-V13 throughout Neolithic never spoke Etruscan or some usual EEF, but rather Afroasiatic. From my perspective preferably something proto-Egyptian-like (when I was 12 I knew lot about most pyramids) and Semitic ethnogenesis is closely associated with later J1-Z2331, J2-M205 spread.

    Autosomally Dalmatian Neolithic samples had small Iberomaurusian-like influence that EEF's by and large lacked. Though one can connect this to Natufians as well who were 27 % Iberomaurusian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EASTEUROPID View Post


    He looked like neither of those lol.

    This is E-V13 look lmao
    North African Afalou combined with coarse robust proto-Mediterranean type were main Capsian types. So yes as far as I'm concerned it is in my interest that my ancestors were that rather than the EEF sea of usual small gracile, peaceful Meds.. Though they ended up being mainly that in Neolithic regardless like most of Europe..

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

    Who says?

    What utter nonsense.

    As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

    Until then, it's all just hot air.

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    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.
    E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same time I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup folk are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

    And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

    Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.

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