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Thread: Where did E-V13 originate ?

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    Arrow Where did E-V13 originate ?

    might have brought E-V13 from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece
    This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    This is a brand new theory for me. Since I am always willing to learn, I am very interested to know how someone might even consider such a theory. So E-V13 entered via (todays) Morocco to later disappear there? How does it work exactly?
    Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page nearly two years ago.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page nearly two years ago.
    I was aware of that thanks. It was an interesting read, however how its explained in the latest article(genetics of British Isles) mentioning Iberia followed by Italy thenGreece gives the impression that E-V13 has entered to Iberia first(which would be via today's Morocco). E-V13 is even rarer there then Libya or Egypt (which are only 1% anyway). (I know you never said that but its the impression of the sequence of the geographical areas). In your article for E1b1b you make a clear distinction between M-81 and E-V13

    quoting:-A third wave in the late glacial period (17,000-12,000 years ago) might have brought E-V13 from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece, while J2bexpanded from Anatolia to the southern Balkans. Haplogroup R1a would have arrived from Siberia to eastern Europe following the end of the last glaciation. end of quote


    Regarding the theory of E-V13 arriving to the Islands across the waters from North Africa from Egypt or Libya has very little proof if any. If there is any kind of solid evidence I will be very happy to be guided to see how anyone can consider such a theory. Most of the 1% E-V13 found in Libya (mostly in Jewish populations) and Egypt had a long history of Greek settlement and influence in Egypt. And up till now no ancient E-V13dna has been found in north Africa older then that of Spain and Tessaly (and Anatolia if I’m not mistaken).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Brand new ? But I wrote about this on the E1b1b page nearly two years ago.
    the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
    there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

    arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
    the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the problem with that is that coalesence time for E-M81 seems to be very young - only a few thousand years
    there are 106 known SNP for E-L19 and 131 for E-M81, but only 10 downstream of E-M81

    arrival via Gibraltar seems very likely, but paleolithic/mesolithic not
    the problem is there are no archeological traces which one would expect in this case
    I have noticed that too recently. That's why I removed any mention of E-M81 in the new page about the British Isles, and only mentioned E-V13. I will edit the E1b1b page now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I was aware of that thanks. It was an interesting read, however how its explained in the latest article(genetics of British Isles) mentioning Iberia followed by Italy thenGreece gives the impression that E-V13 has entered to Iberia first(which would be via today's Morocco). E-V13 is even rarer there then Libya or Egypt (which are only 1% anyway). (I know you never said that but its the impression of the sequence of the geographical areas). In your article for E1b1b you make a clear distinction between M-81 and E-V13

    quoting:-A third wave in the late glacial period (17,000-12,000 years ago) might have brought E-V13 from North Africa to Iberia, Italy and Greece, while J2bexpanded from Anatolia to the southern Balkans. Haplogroup R1a would have arrived from Siberia to eastern Europe following the end of the last glaciation. end of quote


    Regarding the theory of E-V13 arriving to the Islands across the waters from North Africa from Egypt or Libya has very little proof if any. If there is any kind of solid evidence I will be very happy to be guided to see how anyone can consider such a theory. Most of the 1% E-V13 found in Libya (mostly in Jewish populations) and Egypt had a long history of Greek settlement and influence in Egypt. And up till now no ancient E-V13dna has been found in north Africa older then that of Spain and Tessaly (and Anatolia if I’m not mistaken).
    That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa, all the way fro Egypt to Morocco. Egypt has the largest percentage of E-M78 as well as the greatest diversity, and might be the original source of all M78 subclades, including V13. Personally I think that E-V13 entered Europe through Sicily, but there could have been several routes, including along the Levantine and Anatolian coastlines to Greece, and via Gibraltar.

    Considering that E-M81 arrived so late to the Maghreb but now makes over half of the lineages (> 70% in Morocco), it is undeniable that a major population replacement took place in the region after the Neolithic. E-M81's coalescence age according to the Hallast et al. paper published last month is about the same as R1b-M269, so approx. 7000 years. But since M81 probably originated in East Africa, it may only have arrived in the Maghreb about 4000 to 5000 years ago, just like R1b in Western Europe.

    If we exclude E-M81 and all the haplogroups brought by the Arabs, Romans, Phoenicians, Neolithic farmers/herders (incl. R1b-V88 and some non-Arabic/Phoenician G, J1 and T), we are pretty much left only with E-M78 in North Africa. I now realise that it is not just E-V13 that would have entered Europe during the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, but any M78 subclade found in Europe, which is to say also V12, V22 and V65.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's right, E-V13 only makes up 1 or 2% of the Y-DNA in North Africa, all the way fro Egypt to Morocco. Egypt has the largest percentage of E-M78 as well as the greatest diversity, and might be the original source of all M78 subclades, including V13. Personally I think that E-V13 entered Europe through Sicily, but there could have been several routes, including along the Levantine and Anatolian coastlines to Greece, and via Gibraltar.
    Its very probable that E-M78 originated in Egypt some 18,000 BP, however V13 mutated much later (maybe some 10,000 BP). One has to see what kind of boats or rafts were available in those days to make such a crossing (into the unkown) possible. In my opinion it would have been much more natural that migrations took coastal routes in the case of E-M78 crossing to near east and beyond and E-V13 mutated in near east or Balkans proper (Due to the lack of E-V13 in present day North Africa. Also and no European Islands are visible from North Africa. (or to be more precise from Tunisia Libya or Egypt)

    The artifacts found in the Maltese Islands (earliest some 7000 years ago in the 'dalam' phase have a connection with those found in Sicily. Also example Malta is visible from Sicily on a very clear day so it would have a curious site and crossing more probable (rather the other way round). On the other had in the same cave were found dwarf elephants and dear, meaning that Europe was connected to North Africa with two huge lakes on the side, but Im not sure if there were any humans migrating in and out at that time. Human remains are thought to be around 10,000 BP. I need to look at human evolution and time frames.

    http://www.maltesering.com/archaeology_ghar_dalam.asp

    Considering that E-M81 arrived so late to the Maghreb but now makes over half of the lineages (> 70% in Morocco), it is undeniable that a major population replacement took place in the region after the Neolithic. E-M81's coalescence age according to the Hallast et al. paper published last month is about the same as R1b-M269, so approx. 7000 years. But since M81 probably originated in East Africa, it may only have arrived in the Maghreb about 4000 to 5000 years ago, just like R1b in Western Europe.
    It makes much sense that according to the pattern that E-M81 has crossed also through the straight of Gibraltar to Iberia reaching the northern part of Spain (probably there was a time when it was even closer then it is today and visible too.

    If we exclude E-M81 and all the haplogroups brought by the Arabs, Romans, Phoenicians, Neolithic farmers/herders (incl. R1b-V88 and some non-Arabic/Phoenician G, J1 and T), we are pretty much left only with E-M78 in North Africa. I now realise that it is not just E-V13 that would have entered Europe during the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, but any M78 subclade found in Europe, which is to say also V12, V22 and V65.
    Yes I agree but E-M78 (V12 -V13-V22) still would only make up a very small percentage (2% / 3%) compared to the dominant (over 60%) of M-310 were E-M81 stems from in North Africa. While it is odd that the oldest V-13 is actually found in Iberia Morocco itself is void of this mutation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Its very probable that E-M78 originated in Egypt some 18,000 BP, however V13 mutated much later (maybe some 10,000 BP). One has to see what kind of boats or rafts were available in those days to make such a crossing (into the unkown) possible. In my opinion it would have been much more natural that migrations took coastal routes in the case of E-M78 crossing to near east and beyond and E-V13 mutated in near east or Balkans proper (Due to the lack of E-V13 in present day North Africa. Also and no European Islands are visible from North Africa. (or to be more precise from Tunisia Libya or Egypt)
    I wouldn't worry too much about boats. Australia was colonised between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago and it involved much more perilous sailing across Indonesia + at least 90 km by sea between Sunda and Sahul when sea levels were at their lowest. Compare to that hopping from Tunisia to Malta or Sicily is a child's play. Just look at the illegal immigrants who regularly cross on makeshift rafts, not even proper boats (of course some die while doing so, but many more make it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much about boats. Australia was colonised between 40,000 and 70,000 years ago and it involved much more perilous sailing across Indonesia + at least 90 km by sea between Sunda and Sahul when sea levels were at their lowest. Compare to that hopping from Tunisia to Malta or Sicily is a child's play. Just look at the illegal immigrants who regularly cross on makeshift rafts, not even proper boats (of course some die while doing so, but many more make it).
    Maybe how people floated on open seas in neolithic and before could take an interesting debate of its own. We know it happened for sure as pottery and tools where already imported from regions across the sea (not found in the area) 7000 years ago. But just imagining a very small group of people without much knowledge of whats beyond and taking the plunge to sail (float) to the unknown would have been like Christopher Columbus on his mission or the Vikings a few hundred years before. We know the Phoenicians stuck to the coast as much as they could though sailing thousands of kilometers some 3000 BP years ago. Today s illegal immigrants know very well were they are heading to (as you said if they make it) but risk it anyways.........besides paying very good un taxed money to do so.

    At 90km the land is visible however so curiosity would make it tempting. Thats the distance between Malta and Sicily. Its over 300km between Tunisia or Libya, but I would presume that at the end of the LGM the dry land was much more spread. (ok im curious to see maps now) And many more lands visible and maybe even connected. It all depends on how far humans would have spread by that time. But probably that would have been before the EV-13 mutation, or maybe mutated and by luck spread in particular areas away to were it was mutated, as the balkans are the only real hot spot. Remember that Sicily has a long history of settlements from the Balkans (Greek and Albanians) and its very probable that thats were its E-V13 stock is coming from. Same like South of France and coastal regions of Turkey. I can only sense at this point that E-V13 radiates from the Balkans outwords. I do my best to keep an open mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Maybe how people floated on open seas in neolithic and before could take an interesting debate of its own. We know it happened for sure as pottery and tools where already imported from regions across the sea (not found in the area) 7000 years ago. But just imagining a very small group of people without much knowledge of whats beyond and taking the plunge to sail (float) to the unknown would have been like Christopher Columbus on his mission or the Vikings a few hundred years before.
    Not really. I expect that they were fishermen who got lost and ended up on the wrong coast.


    At 90km the land is visible however so curiosity would make it tempting. Thats the distance between Malta and Sicily. Its over 300km between Tunisia or Libya, but I would presume that at the end of the LGM the dry land was much more spread.
    Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.



    Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Regarding Australia, I read that the shortest distance from Indonesia (which was a single unified island known as Sahul back then) was 90 km at the height of the Ice Age, but it is now over 500 km.
    49000 years ago people were in the Ivane Valley, New Guinea
    40000 years ago they reached Buka Island, a crossing over more than 140 km open seas
    32000 years ago, they reached the Solomon Islands, 600 km east of New Guinea

    In the Mediterranean Cyprus was reached first time 13000 years ago, as well as the Island Melos in the Aegean.
    Later there was the spread along the Mediterranean via Cardium Ware ... G2a

    But for E-V13 I see another problem ..
    Before neolithic people arrived (probably G2a and F) 8000 years ago, the area between the Danube and the Aegean coastal areas were uninhabited.
    The tribes in the Aegean coastal areas lived there allready since the LGM (20000 years ago)
    I realy don't think E-V13 arrived in the Balkans prior to the neolithic.
    In Italy, TMRCA time for G2a is about 8000 years, but for all other Y-haplos it is much, much later. So I don't think E-V13 was present in Italy either.

    My guess : there was E-V13 in Anatolia, but it didn't spread there. There was 1 lucky E-V13 tribe that arived in the Balkans much later and started to spread from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Don't forget the small island of Pantelleria halfway between Tunisia (60 km) and Sicily (100 km). That is now. At the height of the Ice Age it would be less than half that distance. Since we are discussing it, I checked it up and there was actually a land bridge uniting Malta, Sicily and Calabria into a single land mass.
    But that is still going to leave us with a dilemma. Lets do some simple reasoning. If E-M81 is so abundant in North Africa (at the present day) and also found from such an old age in Iberia, why should not E-V13 not have the same patterns and numbers in North Africa? Why is one so obvious and the other is not? Is just a lucky tribe kinda of answer who ended up in Balkans enough making lots of babies there die off completely were it was mutated?. I will not stop repeating the obvious :). The tiny 1% found in north Africa is clearly an obvious import from the balkans. It is well known that many Greeks settled in Egypt in the classical era and beyond. And most of E-V13 found in Libya in mostly amongst Jews. Morocco is void of E-V13.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    If we believe Maghreb folklore, which states they originated in modern kuwait and travelled west into North-africa ( maghreb means west in arabic ), then what else did they bring apart from their E marker?
    Oh well well Sile, you also said that E-V13 was exported from Cyrene in Libya to the Balkans! when Cyrene was a greek founded city due to over population in Greece.

    Originally Posted by Sile
    I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks



    Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?

    Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

    http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/

    And what prompted the Kuwaitis to move to the Maghreb? fire and brimstone? and why E-V13 is 1% in the Maghreb? and why Kuwaitis have so such a low percentage of E-V13 . Teach me.....Im willing to learn

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Oh well well Sile, you also said that E-V13 was exported from Cyrene in Libya to the Balkans! when Cyrene was a greek founded city due to over population in Greece.

    Originally Posted by Sile
    I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks



    Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?

    Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

    http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/
    thats correct, Santorini ( santa Irena ) , is older in markers than that of albanian E-v13, so logical trail can be med. islands, via cyrene to the south adriatic............its not the other way around, can it !


    you cyrene link is useless it only from 800BC


    And what prompted the Kuwaitis to move to the Maghreb? fire and brimstone? and why E-V13 is 1% in the Maghreb? and why Kuwaitis have so such a low percentage of E-V13 . Teach me.....Im willing to learn
    Maghreb has no E-v13, why bring it up ?.....i was talking about E-m78
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    Maghreb has no E-v13, why bring it up ?.....i was talking about E-m78
    Maghreb dna E-M81 does not stem from E-78. and anyway from my part I have made my point in relation to E-V13. This thread is about The genetic history of the British Isles. I said enough

    E1b1b-tree.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    My guess : there was E-V13 in Anatolia, but it didn't spread there. There was 1 lucky E-V13 tribe that arived in the Balkans much later and started to spread from there.
    This is a much more plausible as a theory in my opinion, personally I am not excluding that E-V13 could have also been mutated in the Balkan itself, But with present test methods unless greatly improved its going to take much more time to get a clear picture.
    Last edited by Maleth; 12-01-15 at 08:32. Reason: more text

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    But that is still going to leave us with a dilemma. Lets do some simple reasoning. If E-M81 is so abundant in North Africa (at the present day) and also found from such an old age in Iberia, why should not E-V13 not have the same patterns and numbers in North Africa? Why is one so obvious and the other is not? Is just a lucky tribe kinda of answer who ended up in Balkans enough making lots of babies there die off completely were it was mutated?. I will not stop repeating the obvious :). The tiny 1% found in north Africa is clearly an obvious import from the balkans. It is well known that many Greeks settled in Egypt in the classical era and beyond. And most of E-V13 found in Libya in mostly amongst Jews. Morocco is void of E-V13.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt
    Simple chronology. In Paleolithic and Mesolithic central and northern Europe, haplogroups C1a2, F and I were abundant, yet the two first virtually disappeared because Neolithic newcomers brought G2a and had vastly more offspring thanks to agriculture. Only the few I subclades that adapted and joined G2a agricultural communities prospered (mostly I1 and I2a1). Then Bronze Age invaders came with new male lineages (R1a, R1b, J2) and killed the aboriginal men, or over-reproduced compared to them, so that even Neolithic lineages fell into a meagre minority. Once again, only those who joined the new invaders prospered (Germanic I1 and Slavic I2a1b), while others dwindled (I2a1a, G2a) apart in a few secluded pockets (Sardinia, Pyrenees, Alps).

    Similar scenario in North Africa but with other haplogroups:

    1) Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were E-M78 belonging to various subclades V12, V13, V22 or V65 depending on the region.

    2) Neolithic herders came in two waves : R1b-V88 with cattle and J1+T1a with goats. G2 cereal farmers in some regions only (esp. in Egypt). Very different situation from central/northern Europe. In North Africa and the Mediterranean Europe, the landscape is much more mountainous, which is better suited to herding than cereal farming, which is why J1 and T are much more common around the Mediterranean (+ Alps and Carpathians) than in flat regions of Europe. However herding doesn't provide as much of food surplus as cereals, so the herders' population grow more slowly compared to hunter-gatherers. Besides domesticated animals can be stolen, and raids have always been common in herding societies, be it in Highland Scotland a few centuries ago or in Ethiopia or the Sahel today. As a result, hunter-gatherers can become herders easily too and more native HG lineages survive (E-M78 in both Mediterranean Europe and North Africa).

    3) Bronze Age invaders come, kill local men, seize political power, get harems and monopolise women available for reproduction. Their Y-DNA rise suddenly. Apparently this is what happened with E-M81, but I don't know exactly how. They might have been part of the Afroasiatic expansion, which also brought E-M84 to the Middle East (Proto-Semitic branch). E-M81 would have been the Proto-Berber branch, which could have spread anytime between 5000 and 1000 BCE. The Phoenicians (J1, J2a, G2, E-M84, R1b-L23, R1a-Z93, Q1b) also had an impact on the coastal Maghreb, but they were merchants more than military conquerors, so they didn't make a point to exterminate local men.

    4) Roman colonisation : only minor genetic impact.

    5) Arabic conquest : major population replacement, especially through the paternal line due to the institutionalisation of polygamy and vast harems for the ruling class (mostly J1-P58).



    So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

    A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).

    B) E-V13 survives mostly in places where Indo-Europeans arrived late and had a much smaller impact than in the rest of Europe, i.e. Iberia (R1b spread very slowly from 1800 to 1000 BCE), Italy (Italics only entered from 1200 BCE, but didn't reach the south until c. 500 BCE), southern Balkans (early entry of R1b but region already heavily populated and difficulty to Indo-Europeanise locals, as attested by the numerous pre-IE vocabulary in Albanian and Greek).

    C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    So why is E-V13 more common in Europe than North Africa today ? For three main reasons:

    A) Due to a founder effect in the population that migrated from North Africa to Europe (a small group that had more V13 than average).
    Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.


    • Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]



    Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withthe NeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
    Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007)tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



    Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011)announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a,which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (Seebelow.)


    Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope.Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269),like E1b1b or J lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.



    C) Europe didn't have the Arabic conquest (except Iberia, Malta and Sicily). Note how E-V13 survived better in the mountains of central Sicily than in coastal regions battered by waves of medieval invaders (Vandals, Normans, Saracens).
    How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.


    • Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]



    Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withthe NeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
    Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007)tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



    Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011)announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a,which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (Seebelow.)


    Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope.Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269),like E1b1b or J lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.





    How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.
    These papers are obviously obsolete. E-V13 was not the main Neolithic lineage as everybody (me included) once thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    These papers are obviously obsolete. E-V13 was not the main Neolithic lineage as everybody (me included) once thought.
    I see, would you know were I can read more about the upgrades other then the ones I posted taken from Wiki. I'm desperately trying to google search, but no luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    I see, would you know were I can read more about the upgrades other then the ones I posted taken from Wiki. I'm desperately trying to google search, but no luck.
    What do you mean by upgrades ? Newer studies ? There aren't any about E1b1b. The most up-to-date info, I think, is on Eupedia. Academics who publish these studies are usually people who studied biology (genetics) but have little knowledge of history or archeology. They have funds to run large scale studies, but aren't always good at interpreting the historical significance of the results. Then there are times when everybody, even hobbyists, mistake. That was the case with E-V13 being brought by Near Eastern farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Im not being sarcastic or anything, but what has happened to the information of these papers? are they absolete now and the North Africa migration of E-V13 to europe is taking over? if it is were can i find scientific documents about it? I am really interested.


    • Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]



    Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with only Mesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withthe NeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
    Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007)tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



    Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011)announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were in haplogroupG2a,which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (Seebelow.)


    Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope.Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269),like E1b1b or J lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    None of these mention a crossing from North Africa more and more Libya.





    How do we know that E-V13 survived in the Mountains? The highest E-V13 concentration is in the Norman founded town of Piazza Armenia besides its more evident in the eastern part of Sicily which was Greek dominated since antiquity. It is not known that there were any great settlement from invaders in Sicily except for the installation of Garrisons and the immediate minimal ripple effect that will bring with it. Example the British were in Malta for 200 years but the genetic impact (British surnames (as its difficlut to suss out through DNA) would only have some 2% on the present day gene pool. It wasn't much different during past eras. Dont think that there were some mass migrations and settlements from all people that invade a country and somehow present DNA results prove that too.
    check this out for E-v13

    It seems ray Banks is assigned to upgrade/change layout of Isogg

    File is 2015
    https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1

    V13 is way down the E tree line

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What do you mean by upgrades ? Newer studies ? There aren't any about E1b1b. The most up-to-date info, I think, is on Eupedia. Academics who publish these studies are usually people who studied biology (genetics) but have little knowledge of history or archeology. They have funds to run large scale studies, but aren't always good at interpreting the historical significance of the results. Then there are times when everybody, even hobbyists, mistake. That was the case with E-V13 being brought by Near Eastern farmers.
    Sorry, yes that's what I meant, Updated/Newer studies one can read. Re geneticist I know what you mean. Spencer wells said (reported on National geographical) that Malta had nearly 50% Phoenician dna. Most people know nothing about DNA and some still echo this which is totally false. He also said that the Phoenicians must have wiped out the aboriginal population that was here when they arrived. He based this on J2 as being Phoenician when we all know its not the only Phoenician marker and its found in other populations besides Phoenician. He was not aware that Malta was repopulated from Sicily sometime in the late 1000's as it was depopulated after the Aglabide invasion. Other studies established that J2 in Malta is 22% with J1 being 8%. So it seems that some theories have to be taken with a pinch of salt....even if National geographic magazine had stated it.

    You are right any google search on the matter points out to Eupidia most of the time....and to the forums too. Not much more info (other then Dienekes pops up)

    The positive thing is we know much more now then we did even 5 years ago, and I have no doubt we will be knowing much more, making things more accurate in the years to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    check this out for E-v13

    It seems ray Banks is assigned to upgrade/change layout of Isogg

    File is 2015
    https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/e1b1b-1

    V13 is way down the E tree line
    Thanks for link. There is much more to test for to date. I will be doing some deeper testing through Ftdna soon (hopefully)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Where did E-V13 originate ?

    Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).

    As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Maciamo, I think you're missing something here as far as Afroasiatic is of concern: While E-M35.1 and its subclades strongly correlate with the different AA branches, one should not forget that J1, T1a and R1b-V88 are very strong contenders and might've taken part in the spread of AA at a very early stage. This relates to the common debate around PAA's timeframe and subsequent associations with hunter-gatherers & agropastoralism (while it is obvious that the spread of several AA branches is tied to pastoralism, the association of PAA with herding communities is far more uncertain).

    As far as E-V13 goes, it's obvious that it was born in North(east?) Africa as all the other M78 branches are found there... However, I wouldn't be so quick to ascribe its arrival to a Paleolithic or Mesolithic migration, we'll have to wait for more results from ancient remains to say for sure (Mesolithic E-V13 would be a good start).
    I recommend that you view the new Ydna tree from June 2014 and note that, before any of the markers you mentioned where born , the only markers around where
    D, E, C and F ( and the A B etc )

    From F ( which is stated as )
    The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.
    Came the ydna Haplogroups of GHIJKLT............Clearly all born outside of africa along with it's parent F.

    From K , there later broke down further into P, M, S, N, O, X, Q and R

    Clearly anything in Africa apart form D, E and C relates to subclades of haplogroups born outside of Africa but migrated to Africa ( not the back to Africa rubbish ) . I am not saying all E subclades where born in Africa, as some are from the Levant ( an indication that E moved out of africa via Egypt )

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