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Why not when the only ancient J-L283 samples from the Balkans so far is one exactly from the time and area of Cetina culture. Plus don't forget the Etruscan who autosomally had clear ties with the Balkans and was closely related to the Cetina J-L283 sample.
Plus don't forget the Etruscan who autosomally had clear ties with the Balkans and was closely related to the Cetina J-L283 sample.
Then what was the haplogroup that brought the exact Cetina related burials in Greece which were radically different than the previous Mycenaean related burials?
And it's not just the burials, there are many Cetina related artifacts in connection to the Dorians.
Many people are on the opinion that YFULL's estimations are underestimated by 10-15%
Northern J-Z631 subclades that were previously part of Cetina culture and later part of Eastern Urnfield.
If you read correctly what I wrote you would noticed that Vucedol Neolithic related elements survived South of Balaton lake. And E-L618 was also found in Lengyel and Sopot cultures. And E-V13 wasn't common there because it was a single man that spread his genes around EBA. Also how many samples we have south of Balaton lake? Most of the Hungarian samples are from other parts of Hungary. Let remind you that there are no E-V13 samples in EBA Bulgaria as well.
And that is one of the biggest mistakes someone can make, looking at current distribution. As for the rest, pay attention to what I said previously.
Any sources for Glina III being a sister culture of Cetina?
Glina III culture didn't practice cremation and was in connection with the first intrusions of the Steppe people, the Yamnaya guys. They were known for their specific knob pottery and inhumation burials. It was later replaced by migrants that brought cremation and incised pottery. So I don't know how Glina III can be related to spread of E-V13 in the Balkan but let just say that we don't agree here.
The custom of using the stone cysts in Western Serbia during the EBA (occasionally later) Milutin Garasanin considers typical for the Belotic Bela Crkva group, and he connects them with the related occurrences in Glina III Schneckenberg and Somogyvar groups, where the author also finds close analogies in inventory.
(cremation and inhumation, Cetina for example had ratio of 50-50)Other than usage of stone cysts, closeness with the Schneckenberg group is seen also through the practice of bi-ritual burial
Don't quote me indirectly and lump me with someone else. Do it directly if u have any issues or questions.
Stop this Nietzschean Master-Slave morality based discourse... as if we have any clue who was farmers and who was what, else you are no better than the "low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2"...
Essentially E-V13 Dalmatian Neolithic remnant survived and in EBA (Bronze Age Greece (2800–1200 BC / Early Bronze Age: 20th to 16th centuries BCE),they met the incoming J-L283's. J-L283's were saying to them "we wuz Illyrians", E-V13 met some R-Z2103's and showed the middle finger to the J-L283's saying "we wuz Thracians"
Oct 2, 2016 - I was afraid of that haplogroup because it exists in Somalia but J2b2, R1b does not.
Well Cetina people weren't gracile..EV13 are the Short Swarthy Gracile, Curlyhaired Meds while J2b2 are us tall, robust, light featured tribal Ghegnians who came down through the mountains and pushed everyone else the **** aside."
I was being figurative, ofc that Illyrian is a much later term.
Personally, even before I ever read Nietzsche. There was Andromeda TV show, and they made this species called Nitzscheans, fanatic followers of Nietzsche. And was like wow, we have kinda similar mindset.. One of them was played by a Croatian descended actor..
Now regarding some Albanian J2b2's:
On apricity there was a topic "Happy I'm Not E1b". it has been deleted since (it is from 2016).
Albanian after testing
He added further
Well Cetina people weren't gracile..
Can you provide links that I4331 is from that Dinara culture? Meanwhile in the supplementary material regarding I4331 it says it's dated between 1700-1500 BCE from the location called Veliki Vanik. As for the culture it's designated only as Croatia EMBA.Duude.
BECAUSE IT IS NOT FROM CETINA CULTURE
The find is from another neighbor NON-CETINA CULTURE
Is this too hard to comprehend??
Again, it's not a Cetina sample. It is Dinara/Posušje MBA culture, NOT CETINA. This Cetina J-L283 is something you or someone else made up out of thin air but it's just it: MADE UP.
Cetina Culture is deemed to have preserved the local non Indo-European elements and as such the non Indo-European language as well. This goes well with the fact that the Etruscan was non Indo-European language. Now we have a clear connection with the Etruscan sample closely related to I4331 sample in EBA/MBA Croatia.There is Etruscan connection. There is some archaeological evidence to suggest Etruscans came to Italy from the Northern Balkans. I do not deny in any way the possibility that some E-V13 clades actually preserved the Etruscan language. I believe it came from either them or the J-L283, or some G2a's in the area.. Surely not the R-L51's..
Proto-Etruscans (Villanova) were clearly connected to some very cultures I thought might be related to some Z5018 clades. And this Etruscan J-L283 find is an indication these links are not accidental..
As you say MBA diversity, so not an EBA one. Plus the Philistines migrated in LBA.I believe clades such as S7461 are locals in Bulgaria and related to Philistines because of their strength in the Middle East. River Strymon, a Thracian name used to be called Palaistinos. E-S7461 are IMO likely proto-Philistines or among them. That Getae find is S7461-. This clade has huge diversity in Bulgaria. MBA diversity.
I think these represent some older E-V13 population present in MBA Bulgaria.
There are no E-V13 clades in ancient Greeks up to date.You are taking these sporadic finds too literally. You see few Greek non-E-V13 and you assume there was no E-V13 in Greeks. I take both aDNA and modern diversity equally in consideration.
It's ridiculous if you believe that the Dorians could have brought only that clade in Greece and not the J-L283 one. Generally it's very telling that E-V13 wasn't much present among the Greeks, you have the Roman paper where E-V13 appears only in late antiquity but with the new samples coming from Greeks there aren't any rumors that E-V13 will appear there.E-Y37092
Greek YF67985
Also another candidate Greek from Peloponnese. PH1246+ and not connected to YF67985 by STR's.
Can you provide source for your claims?Cetina related burials date to EHIII, Peloponnese 2200 BC, around 500 years earlier than another culture where J-L283 was found.
Here source, ctrl + f and type Cetina. There are quite a lot of connections for me to post all of them here.There can't be directly Cetina related artifacts to Dorians because Cetina ended in Early MBA.
Who says that, you?And they are generally wrong. Because they criticize to fit into their own fancy theories. But for example looking at I2a tree estimates are correct as they mimi Slavic migrations. In many cases for example some subclades have mutated more so that creates some issues for TMRCA.
R-L51 for western Urnfield zone yes, NOT for the Eastern one. Or how do you think most J-L283 and E-V13 clades got to Central and Western Europe when up to date there are no any Bell Beaker or Corded-Ware samples positive for those haplogroups?J-L283 have nothing to do with Urnfield. Neither do any E-V13 have anything to do with Urnfield in terms of origins from Central Europe. Aren't there enough BB samples? No E-V13.. Urnfielders were mostly R1b-L51. Any "Urnfield" E-V13's were some locals from Pannonian basin that were assimilated, some were likely pushed. Urnfielders were genetically Central/Northern European. As various results show, Pannonian MBA locals were not. Unless one considers they too shaped Urnfield culture in various ways..
Most E-V13 clades are pannono-Carpathian locals likely dispersed there in late EBA and MBA..
And you fail to notice some of these Urnfield related E-V13's have branches in Greece. Such as L241 and CTS9320. Well we don't see that for Greeks because of lack of their samples. But already there are various Greek L241+.
Again you are just speculating...E-V13 is Cardial, Sopot and Lengyel had some Cardial influence. but they were overwhelmed numerically by the G2a. On the other hand E-V13 must have been stronger percentage wise in the main Cardial hub, Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic. So automatically it is more likely E-v13 spread from Dalmatia than any Hungarian areas. And guess what Dalmatian Cardial DID survive and it did play part in proto-Cetina formation.
Again, as you didn't provide source I think that you made up that Cetina and Glina III Schneckenberg were sister cultures.Newer material, Govedarica and others. When Rafc wrote E-V13 paper he mentioned Bubanj Hum III, Belotic Bela Ckrva, Armenochori as Cetina offshoots, and as possible vectors for E-V13 expansion. He was right of course. But actually all of these cultures while having Cetina parallels were more directly connected to Glina III.
Recent paper by archaeologist Katarina Dimitrovic, of Belotic Bela Crkva (Cetina related culture), one vector of E-V13 expansion. My translation.
(cremation and inhumation, Cetina for example had ratio of 50-50)
As I said cyst burial combined with plentiful cremation is one thing that lasted from BA Cetina and related cultures to the Carpathain tumuli culture in 4th century AD... And whether you like it or not E-V13 is fundamentally and closely connected to it. It simply must be, there is no other logical explanation.
If its about Thracian R-Z93 find(s), these elements do not come from them..
TMRCA of various basal E-V13 clades and their spread around the Balkans mimics the Glina III intrusions. That goes for your own clade too. And you are never going to find any other explanation. Because Glina III were simply too dominant in those times. Nothing else can possibly explain the E-BY3880 spread and TMRCA.
Facts we have is that Halstatt culture ( in Noricum = east austria ) is a mix of Celtic and "Illyrian"....(My friend when? were "Illyria/Illyrian" and "Thrace / Thracian" first mentioned as terms? How old is L283 and V13? When you answer those questions, check these https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anachronism / https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asynchronous .) I am sure those words are going to be of use for you.
Can you provide links that I4331 is from that Dinara culture?
Furthermore for this Posusje Culture I can not even find material online however on Wikipedia
I can see that it was mostly located inland in BIH between Gruda, Trebinje and Stolac and not on the coastal Croatia where I4331 was found so I think you probably made this up.
Cetina Culture is deemed to have preserved the local non Indo-European elements and as such the non Indo-European language as well. This goes well with the fact that the Etruscan was non Indo-European language. Now we have a clear connection with the Etruscan sample closely related to I4331 sample in EBA/MBA Croatia.
As you say MBA diversity, so not an EBA one. Plus the Philistines migrated in LBA.
Who says that, you?
Generally even YFULL says that the TMRCA is taken as the middle point of the oldest and the youngest branches which again it's not the final date. There is no perfectly accurate TMRCA prediction, neither with SNPs nor STRs.
R-L51 for western Urnfield zone yes, NOT for the Eastern one.
Or how do you think most J-L283 and E-V13 clades got to Central and Western Europe when up to date there are no any Bell Beaker or Corded-Ware samples positive for those haplogroups?
The archaelogical site Veliki Vanik where I4331 was found is just few km away from the Cetina river, the core area of the Cetina culture.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound claiming Cetina didn't have any J-L283?
I think that you fail to realize that Urnfield related branches spread from North to South. Ever since the Neolithic there wasn't any significant South to North migration and invasion. It was always North to South ever since.
Again you are just speculating...
Both Cetina and Belotic Crkva received a new element coming from direction of the Carpathian Basin. This can be seen in the cremation burials and also the incised pottery style. The old elements of Glina III Schneckenberg were assimilated although some elements continued living into the new population. Plus Belotic Crkva is not in Bulgaria so no connection to EBA Bulgaria. And yes, Morava-Vardar valley was important for the spread of E-V13 but also the lower Danube as well however this happened in the MBA.
Now the questin ios what was the Etruscan language, EEF or Anatolian BA descended? In the latter case it would have been preserved by the J-L283 obviously, in former case by G2a and E-L618..
So only if Etruscan came from Anatolia it can be connected to J-L283..
Sorry for the off topic, but how can J-L283 be "connected" to Bronze Age Anatolia when it was already in North Serbia since Early Bronze Age (~4000 ybp)? If it came via Anatolia, it should've come in the Neolithic which there is no evidence of. This isn't supported by the Autosomals of the J-L283 finds either. LBA Nuragic samples were predominantly EEF with a little Steppe, while I4331 from MBA Croatia was predominantly EEF + 30% Steppe and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer.
Aspar is right. You're all over the place, LMAO.
On the other hand, I don't claim it definitely came from the Steppe IE migrations. But considering we have a J-L283* in North Caucasus dated ~1900 BC (which btw had crossed the Caucasus mountains), and the Balkan finds, the most plausible route is north of Black Sea sometime between 6000 to 4000 ybp.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what me, you, or anyone else thinks. I believe this will finally be settled with future aDNA. I'm just stating what I see as most plausible. There was a time in the past when I thought it came via Neolithic Anatolia when we had aDNA..
Find it yourself ..
Bro if you state a position. And someone asks you a source. The burden of proof is on you. You say you have read a bunch of sources from books, and you have connection to "scientists" from Porekllo. At least be decent and share your sources and defend your position. It is a bit condescending to Aspar the way you retort to him asking questions by "Find it yourself".
Now the questin ios what was the Etruscan language, EEF or Anatolian BA descended? In the latter case it would have been preserved by the J-L283 obviously, in former case by G2a and E-L618..
Ok. But why? I originally favored an Anatolian route for L283 to Balkans, but after seeing all evidence against such a position, of course I did not dispute the evidence, I just changed my opinion/hypothesis.
So only if Etruscan came from Anatolia (A) it can be connected to J-L283(B)..
Again why? What gives? Why does A lead to B?
Plus as Etruscans had genetic Steppe Admixture (A), it's a really chaotic situation. I mean obviously they had IE influence but they weren't IE speaking. Half of Balkans could have spoken Etruscan in MBA (B)...
Hard to follow conclusion based on premise? How did A lead to B?
J-L283 per Trojet migrated from N.Caucasus with IE population from the Steppe.
Or it came with the Anatolian Bronze Age people (1) (proto-Nuragics ??) to Sardinia (2) from where it spread to the Balkans (3), possibly with BB's..
You do realize that both the ancient Croatia Sample and the unconfirmed Mokrin Sample predate Nuragic right? If so don't you think the 1-2-3 connection you propose is less likely than 1-3-2? I mean... I am just following your logic in accordance with the dates of the samples. Because I do not even agree with step 1 at this point, despite it being my favored starting point two years ago, when I had no clue on the evidence.
Evidence suggests Etruscan was related to Rhaetian therefore likely EEF, so L-L283 is not originally Etruscan. And E-V13 potentially Etruscan/Pelasgian. There were G2a's too in the area as attested by multiple aDNA finds of EEF clades in Pannonian basin..
I am personally not convinced by the above hypothesis. But still...
On the other hand, are you suggesting E-V13 was Pelasgian and Etruscan? Never heard such hypothesis. Would love to hear more from you.
They (L283) might have been of course Nuragic speakers.. :grin:
Again an instance of anachronism mate. L283 is older in the Balkans than the Nuragic in Sardiana. So did they invent a time machine, take a plane to the Balkans and give their language to their ("potential", / no idea about clade relation) forefathers?
You are taking current finds too much for granted.. As most people do.. Sardinian Nuragics belong to a stray clade don't they?? And there is another Sardinian clade with high Sardinian TMRCA??
Anatolian BA migration would have happened before the IE incursions or around the same time as these. And we know Italians have heavy J2a presence, as do Balkan regions. It's obviously due to this movement.
Am I? He is totally wrong and I am quite right which was confirmed few days ago by this leaked information which indicates E-V13 is more Thracian than Illyrian or Greek. Aspar hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.. You mentioned N.Serbian sample?? Like "Dalmatian" it doesn't tell much. Why don't you explain to us something about this sample.. What was the culture, what were the origins and affinities of this culture, the spread..
Because I do read actually books instead of wikipedia articles..
Besides Aspar is not your "friend", is he LOL.. By trying to connect Veliki Vanik find with Cetina culture he was trying to use the Neolithic element in Cetina to prove J-L283 were proto-Etruscans who spoke Etruscan. In this instance it is his own "We E-V13 wuz BB IE's" and "Ze wuz Pelasgians". In effect he was just digging grave for his own thesis as J-L283 is not EEF whose language Etruscans likely spoke.
I agree that Northern route is more likely. And once that N.Serbian sample comes into play.. He might give more insights.
Bro if you state a position. And someone asks you a source. The burden of proof is on you. You say you have read a bunch of sources from books, and you have connection to "scientists" from Porekllo. At least be decent and share your sources and defend your position. It is a bit condescending to Aspar the way you retort to him asking questions by "Find it yourself".
It's really hard for someone to follow your thoughts. A minute ago you was claiming that E-V13 was in EBA Bulgaria where Reich and his team think the genesis of the Mycenaeans happened now you claim something else. The Thracians are clearly not much related to those EBA Bulgarians. Their language was clearly very different than the Greek and was probably brought later from the North so if you believe that E-V13 was among those who brought the Thracian language I don't know how you would make parallel with EBA Bulgarians. I also believe sometime ago I had discussion with you claiming the Dorians were mostly E-V13 accusing me that I dislike Greeks and that's why I believe that E-V13 wasn't much present among the ancient Greeks. Did I ever say that E-V13 is more Greek or Illyrian than Thracian?Am I? He is totally wrong and I am quite right which was confirmed few days ago by this leaked information which indicates E-V13 is more Thracian than Illyrian or Greek. Aspar hasn't got a clue what he's talking about.. You mentioned N.Serbian sample?? Like "Dalmatian" it doesn't tell much. Why don't you explain to us something about this sample.. What was the culture, what were the origins and affinities of this culture, the spread..
Because I do read actually books instead of wikipedia articles..
Besides Aspar is not your "friend", is he LOL.. By trying to connect Veliki Vanik find with Cetina culture he was trying to use the Neolithic element in Cetina to prove J-L283 were proto-Etruscans who spoke Etruscan. In this instance it is his own "We E-V13 wuz BB IE's" and "Ze wuz Pelasgians". In effect he was just digging grave for his own thesis as J-L283 is not EEF whose language Etruscans likely spoke.
It's really hard for someone to follow your thoughts. A minute ago you was claiming that E-V13 was in EBA Bulgaria where Reich and his team think the genesis of the Mycenaeans happened now you claim something else. The Thracians are clearly not much related to those EBA Bulgarians. Their language was clearly very different than the Greek and was probably brought later from the North so if you believe that E-V13 was among those who brought the Thracian language I don't know how you would make parallel with EBA Bulgarians. I also believe sometime ago I had discussion with you claiming the Dorians were mostly E-V13 accusing me that I dislike Greeks and that's why I believe that E-V13 wasn't much present among the ancient Greeks. Did I ever say that E-V13 is more Greek or Illyrian than Thracian?
You really are all over the place...
As for the rest I will not bother to comment what I have never claimed. It's your claim of something you believe that I believe...
Metal objects are rare in the Svilengrad pit complex. Among them figures an interesting iron instrument classified as a trunnion axe. Its shape allows its identification asa chisel of type III 1 C (Wesse). The distribution of this type is dated the periodbetween the eleventh and seventh/sixth century BC and encompasses the westernBalkans and the Carpathian basin; single finds are known from Slovenia and MiddleDnepr region.33 The finds of iron trunnion axes/chisels in Bulgarian territory arelimited and mainly without clear provenance. Most of them were found in NorthBulgaria. Only three samples are known south of the Haemus Mountains: fromOmarchevo, Ada tepe and Dositeevo.34 The Svilengrad find is the southernmost. Itspresence here is not unexpected as long as the cultural contacts from Asia Minorthrough the Balkans westwards were conducted not only by sea but also by land.35
https://www.academia.edu/588112/Ritual_Pit_Complexes_in_Iron_Age_Thrace_The_Case_Study_of_Svilengrad
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