Where did E-V13 originate ?

Yes, it can be true. G2a is lineage which we can see in Neolithic sites throughout Europe.

E-V13 in Europe is in Bronze age. It could come from Anatolia and one logical direction is over the Caucasus and steppe. Your argumentation can explain E-V13 as minor haplogroup in many Central and North European nations, including Slavic people. This means that E-V13 have been brought with Indo-Europeans in Europe as part of IE expansion.

Of course part E-V13 could come from Anatolia to Europe via sea, and probably today's E-V13 carriers in Greece, and it is possible in Southern Italy and Malta are from this population. But main part of E-V13 in Europe probably came with Indo-Europeans and in way how you argue.

on E-V13 ...............prehistoric in Cyprus

Conclusions: Analyses of Cypriot haplogroup data are consistent with two stages of prehistoric settlement. E-V13 and E-M34 are widespread, and PCA suggests sourcing them to the Balkans and Levant/Anatolia, respectively. The persistent pre-Greek component is represented by elements of G2-U5(xL30) haplogroups: U5*, PF3147, and L293. J2b-M205 may contribute also to the pre-Greek strata. The majority of R1b-Z2105 lineages occur in both the westernmost and easternmost districts. Distinctively, sub-haplogroup R1b- M589 occurs only in the east. The absence of R1b- M589 lineages in Crete and the Balkans and the presence in Asia Minor are compatible with Late Bronze Age influences from Anatolia rather than from Mycenaean Greeks.
Voskarides et al., Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements, Investigative Genetics, 20167:1, DOI: 10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8
 
@ Angela & Trojet

I don't know what expansions into Europe there were from the northern Balkans after 4.3 ka
Several expansions started from the Carpathian Basin
Amongst them the Celtic Urnfield and the Italic speaking people.

Furthermore ca 3.7 ka steppe people arrived in the Carpathian Basin with chariots, trained horses and swords.
About 50 or 100 years later the Mycenians arrived with the same items in Greece. But in the Balkans it arrived not.
It is hypothesized all this is has its origins in the Catacomb culture in the steppes, who where later replaced by the Srubnaya people (ancestral to the Cimmerians).

Before calibrated radiocarbon dating existed it was taught chariots, horse bits and swords were introduced in the Carpatian Basin by the Mycenians, but accurate carbon dating showed this was not the case.

source : 'Europe between the Oceans' by Barry Cunliffe, a book I can recommend.
 
They were on the right track, and all the naysayers have been proven wrong now that we've found related clades of E-V13 in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East.

How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.
 
How do you define an E-V13 related clade and what exactly have we found in the Middle East aDNA?

Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))
 
Actually, what has so far been found in Neolithic contexts in the Middle East is not even close to prove that E-V13 entered Europe from there. I see you've been active on this forum long time, so it is a surprise you wrote such an amateur statement.

In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

[h=4]E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit][/h]The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations


 
So how did it get to Europe? In the mesolithic, straight from Africa? It's too young. That's why I think it might actually have formed in Europe, but the trail leads back to the Near East.

Look, if you're one of those people who believe that the Ottomans brought all these evil E-V13 people to the holy, Orthodox, white, Slavic Balkans to destroy us all, just let me know so I can ignore the post. Do I have the subtext right or am I maligning you unjustly? Am I confusing you with someone else? If so, I apologize.

God, I get tired of this sometimes. Thank goodness for some of our sane, intelligent and funny members who I would miss if I left. (You know who you are...:))

Here are two posts I wrote on that subject:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31651-E1b1b1-and-J2-in-Balkans-and-Italy?p=469012#post469012
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...und-Europe-circa-8000-BCE?p=472094#post472094

There are at least 50 ancient Y-DNA samples from SE Europe, Anatolia and Near East together. None of them is E-L618.
Only one of them is E-M78 and it is from Jordan. However E-L618 already existed at the time when that man lived which disqualifies it as potential ancestor. Knowing how wide E-M78 is distributed today that particular sample says almost nothing new about how E-V13 entered Europe.

If one day it becomes a fact that there are no E-L618(xV13) men living outside of Europe today, for me it would be a hard proof that V13 mutation happened inside Europe.
 
In any case, wouldn't it be more sensible to see what the professionals have to say about the subject? were the vast majority state and reconfirm their positions?

E-V13 and ancient migrations[edit]

The apparent movement of E-M78 lineages from the Near East to Europe, and their subsequent rapid expansion, make its E-V13 sub-clade a particularly interesting subject for speculation about ancient human migrations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations



Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.
 
In Italy it looks to me like Magna Graecia in the south (Boattini et al placed it around 300 BC), with perhaps additional movement later on from the Balkans into especially the east coast of Italy.


Haplogroup-E-V13.gif



I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?
 
I am not seeing this. It looks to follow a pattern of Illyrian settlement in Apulia (the Greek influence was mostly in the south near Salento), and in Sicily it definitely does not follow the pattern of Greek settlement, otherwise it should be highest around Syracuse and neighboring Ragusa and Catania. Instead, its highest frequency appears to be in central Sicily, in a belt from Enna across to Palermo. There was later Byzantine settlement in Enna, but if it was truly a marker of Greek settlement, shouldn't it be highest in southeast Sicily, coastal Calabria, and around Naples and not locked in the middle of Sicily?

Perhaps you're privy to a new paper which elucidates who the Illyrians were precisely, and what uniparental lineages they carried? How could I have missed it? I'm absolutely agog to hear about it.

I'm even more excited to hear that there's a paper on Iron Age Greek genomes and a comparison of them with the colonists in Sicily. Do tell.

Perhaps you should write a paper yourself explaining your formula for determining that these Sicilian areas, all subject to Greek colonization, somehow differ in their amount of "Greek" ancestry. A word to the wise, however, all of your "samples" would be subject to rigorous scrutiny: they would be checked for place of origin, whether all four grandparents came from the same area, etc. Then, I'm afraid that your standard for determining "Greek" ancestry, absent some ancient Greek genomes, might face "heavy weather", particularly if the only basis for your claims is some admixture calculators on gedmatch. Do you have much experience with dstats and other formal statistical methods? As a last hurdle they would have to be able to replicate the results.

Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.

If you have some new information about E-V13, perhaps some new subclade information and dating so that we can track it, that would be helpful.
 
Go for it, though, I'll be sure to read it after it goes through peer review. Until then, this all seems to be sheer speculation.

I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.

1058.png
 
Several years ago professionals also claimed that R1b originated in Iberia.

That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)
 
I'd be more interested to seeing evidence of Greek colonization under Magna Graecia in inland Caltanissetta, Enna, and around Palermo. You claimed correlation between the distribution of E-V13 and that historical event, but I am not seeing that for neither Sicily nor for the rest of southern Italy based on the map of the colonized areas.

It is not speculation that inland Enna and Caltanissetta, and Palermo, experienced less Greek colonization under Magna Graecia than did the eastern coast of the island.

Maps are not set in stone. Besides that Sicilian history would tell you that populations are not static since 2000 years. There has been lots of movement. That is true to any other

Here is a map of the Greek colonies in Sicily. Do you see a correlation to the area of increased E-V13 on the island? I personally don't.

1058.png

Maps are not set in stone they just give a rough idea and sometimes change too according to more data available. Also populations do not remain static for 2000 years. This is true to any other region
 
That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.
 
I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

And what is relevant to you?
 
I didn't want to say that anyone thought E-V13 originated in Iberia.
What I wanted to say is that several years ago professionals were obviously wrong (about R1b). That is why their opinion about origin of E-V13 is not relevant for me.

I understood what you meant. If you reason that way you cannot believe anything you hear just in case it will change in the future. Things can change yes. They have many times, but right at the moment with what we have available nothing proves otherwise as in regards to E-V13. Its even much much worse to fantasize a hypothesis or theory with even much less evidence. consider it as fact, just in case a theory will be changed sometime in the future ;)
 
And what is relevant to you?

Opinion of those people which know the phylogeny of E-M78 and which know geographic distribution of its major subbranches like E-Z1919 or E-L618.

And of course it is very important to understand how did E-V13 expand in Europe. If we don't understand mechanism of expansion there is no way that we can understand what was before it. It should be significantly easier to understand more recent events (expansion) than something what happened earlier (place of origin of E-V13). Even though, no one has so far credibly explained how did E-V13 spread inside Europe.
Before we get that (explanation of expansion) we can maybe guess about the continent where E-V13 came to being, but we can't be more specific than that. My assumption in which I pretty much believe is that Europe is that continent. Why? Some of the reasons are - because no E-L618(xV13) has been found outside of Europe so far, because diversity of E-V13 subbranches is higher in Northern Europe compared to Southern Europe, because number of E-V13 men outside of Europe is very low compared to the number inside Europe, because ancient DNA results are strongly against scenario of migration from Near East.
 
Something also interesting concerning nucleotid V-13
totally different than said,

ok in Sicily we see it mainly at central and at mountains,
but what about Venice and Genoua? why has increased spot there?

so the difference among Sicily and venice-genoua shows to me that V-13 at Sicily was an older population before medieval time wars, and found refugge at mountains
but in Genoua and Venice gathered at fortified areas,
offcourse someone can say that V-13 gathered at the ports when they were at their glory,
but if V-13 gathered at the mountains at sicily during the Arab and Normand sauvereign?
that could say a lot, and surely explains some spots of V-13 as defencive gathering,


And I want to go it further,
Cyrrene Cyrenaica,
was colonised by Greeks,
But not Carhedona (carthago)
so at cyrene we find V-13 but at Carhedon?
so v-13 if V-13 was phoenician-middle eastern, how much should gathered at Carthago?
except if Scipion Africanus manage to slain them all.

link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrenaica


Also notice that V-13 is missing from Alps, area of G2a3b and Celts (la Tene and Haalstat)
so has nothing to with IE expansions, and probably with pure IE populations,
as also with the expand of G early farmers.

yet the older E found east of spain is at Konya today Turkey, around 2000 BC
The Thracian sample is very new almost 2,5 ky from Today
but the cross/combine of Italians searchers of Ydna E with PC1 is putting it much older from the 2 above at today Bulgaria
but is a statistical hypothesis.

signature,
' the Devil's advocate'
 
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That has not happened yet with E-V13, and we have more data then ever before ;)

Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

Situation in Neolithic Europe

Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png

We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.

Today in Europe G has this distribution

Haplogroup_G2a.gif


...
We can see very different distribution of E-V13 today in Europe, which is not linked with Neolithic but with Bronze age expansion.

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Carries of Bronze age invasion in Europe were Indo Europeans. Thus it is logical to we suppose that E-V13 was minority lineage in Indo European expansion.

The presence of E-V13 at the Danes, Swedes, Russians, Poles, Belarusians, and other northern peoples would easily explain with the expansion of Indo-Europeans.

This does not imply where the E-V13 emerged. It is possible that it originated in Anatolia.

But it may be more important where the R1a and R1b carriers snapped E-V13 carriers in its expansion. At the steppes? On the Armenian and Iranian plateau? On the territory of present-day Romania? In Pannonia? Or where?

Another important thing is that E-V13 bearers today, all speak Indo-European languages but their original languages were not Indo-European. It can be obvious they are assimilated by Indo Europeans.

If E-V13 carriers were alone in significant numbers and independent of the Indo Europeans they would preserve their non Indo European languages!

We can seek non Indo European words that originate from the original language E-V13 carriers merely in traces, and in a small number of today's Indo-European languages where it is possible.
 

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Yes, we have more data, from ancient to now.

Situation in Neolithic Europe

Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png

We can see dominantly G2 and I2, only one E1b sample.

You (or the map :)) forgot Lengyel and Sopot. Bronze age was a general population boom in Europe. E-V13 been around long enough. There was no written language 7000 years ago, how can one seriously determine a language spoken at that time?
 
Even in Lengyel and Sopot it was sporadically but not dominant. We can discuss about this, it is not crucial. But linguistic issue is very important because it give us base to produce conclusions. E-V13 as a minority lineage have merged with Indo Europeans and expanded with them. Yes, we cannot know languages of E-V13 carriers in the distant past, there is no written evidence. But few people will say that E-V13 carriers are creators of Indo European languages. All the evidence shows that hey are not. They spoke their own languages which have lost by assimilation. And this is not case only with E-V13 carriers, Indo Europeans have expanded and have become dominant over wide areas. None of original languages of E-V13 carriers didn't survive. Or maybe we can look for somewhere?
 

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