Where did E-V13 originate ?

also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b
 
also we can add this guy to ancient e-m78 list:

Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 16051G; 16189C; 16270T source :Lacan 2011b
Many M78+ aDNA samples have been found. I was just listing the V13- samples which were found in Neolithic Europe.

V13 aDNA:
1) E-V13 from Avellaner cave, Spain. Belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, dated to have lived ~7,000ybp
2) E-CTS1273 from Glinoe, Moldova. Labelled as being a Scythian, though auDNA suggests that he was a Dacian. Recently confirmed to have lived between 400-200 BCE
3) E-Z1919 (likely V13+) from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. Was a Thracian who lived during the Iron Age, 2,800-2,500ybp
4) E-V13 from Crypta Balbi (Rome), Italy. Was a Roman who lived during late Antiquity, 1,600-1,400ybp
5) E-V13 from Karos, Hungary. Sample was from the Conqueror period, 1,105-1,050ybp
6) E-V13 from Szekkutas, Hungary. Sample was from the Middle-Late Avar period, 1,350-1,290ybp
7) E-V13 from Collegno, Italy. Sample was a Langobard (Lombard), dated to have lived between 1,500-1,400ybp
8) E-V13 from Girona, Spain. If I recall correctly this sample was labelled as being a Goth, though in terms of auDNA he was very Southern shifted and resembled Balkanites
9) E-V13 from Huescar, Spain. Dated between 1,000-900ybp
10) E-V13 from Cancelleria (Rome), Italy. Dated between 583-537ybp
11) E-L540 (Predicted) from Hradek nad Nisou, Czechia. Dated ~700ybp
12) E-V13 from Bogovej, Denmark. Sample was labelled as being a Viking, however autosomally was Southern shifted. 1,100-1,000ybp
 
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.
 
E-M78 didn't look like Sub-Saharans or Middle Easternes or Europeans.

They were part of Mechta-Afalou, Mechtoid race.
 
Kelemandasi
thanks 👍
Up until now the avellander cave guy is the earliest e-v13 in europan ancient remain(so i thought it is important to mention him)😉
Dosas i think by the time they reached europe
they could have looked like regular med people...
 
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

Un po di abbronzzatura non a mai fato male a nessuno. Anche Barak era un po abronzato për Berlusconi.


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^^The "E" clades have moved across North Africa from east to west. What you're proposing is that E-V13 or its immediate predecessor made that trip all the way across North Africa to the straits, crossed them, and then traveled all the way east again to show up in Croatia, Hungary, Budapest and Ukraine in European Neolithic contexts, specifically the European Neolithic cultures which arrived from Anatolia?

How could that possibly be the most probable scenario.


I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't a shred of evidence that would support it, while meanwhile, as I said, E-V13s immediate predecessor is found in EEF contexts among people whose ancestors came from Anatolia.

Should any such evidence ever surface I'll be happy to accept it. I always follow the evidence. What possible difference could it make to me personally how it got into Europe? Actually, what possible difference could it make to anyone other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity. No need for all this emotion attached to it.

The best scenario is West Asia. E V13 is an indo European clade. Together with R and J. Rome also adds to this scenario.
 
Many M78+ aDNA samples have been found. I was just listing the V13- samples which were found in Neolithic Europe.

V13 aDNA:
1) E-V13 from Avellaner cave, Spain. Belonged to the Cardium Pottery Culture, dated to have lived ~7,000ybp
2) E-CTS1273 from Glinoe, Moldova. Labelled as being a Scythian, though auDNA suggests that he was a Dacian. Recently confirmed to have lived between 400-200 BCE
3) E-Z1919 (likely V13+) from Svilengrad, Bulgaria. Was a Thracian who lived during the Iron Age, 2,800-2,500ybp
4) E-V13 from Crypta Balbi (Rome), Italy. Was a Roman who lived during late Antiquity, 1,600-1,400ybp
5) E-V13 from Karos, Hungary. Sample was from the Conqueror period, 1,105-1,050ybp
6) E-V13 from Szekkutas, Hungary. Sample was from the Middle-Late Avar period, 1,350-1,290ybp
7) E-V13 from Collegno, Italy. Sample was a Langobard (Lombard), dated to have lived between 1,500-1,400ybp
8) E-V13 from Girona, Spain. If I recall correctly this sample was labelled as being a Goth, though in terms of auDNA he was very Southern shifted and resembled Balkanites
9) E-V13 from Huescar, Spain. Dated between 1,000-900ybp
10) E-V13 from Cancelleria (Rome), Italy. Dated between 583-537ybp
11) E-L540 (Predicted) from Hradek nad Nisou, Czechia. Dated ~700ybp
12) E-V13 from Bogovej, Denmark. Sample was labelled as being a Viking, however autosomally was Southern shifted. 1,100-1,000ybp

Cardium pottery culture came from the Palestine area correct? Were any E-V13 samples found there ? Or did this culture assimilate E-V13 when it moved into Europe?
 
The best scenario is West Asia. E V13 is an indo European clade. Together with R and J. Rome also adds to this scenario.

Why is that the best scenario when E-M78 is almost non existent in West Asia, both ancient samples and modern distribution.
 
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

89d739d9cafc4f091de73e833f6ad0a2.jpg



He looked like neither of those lol.

This is E-V13 look lmao
 
It is no fantasy whatsoever that E-V13 arrived to Europe directly from North Africa, and that it did not arrive from Levant. This is pre-history and those without archaeological knowledge are basically blind..


So..


There exists archaeological evidence for such migration, in the form of Capsian elements in Late Mesolithic site Crvena Stijena III in modern West Montenegro. What is interesting is that this particular site had direct connections to the site where L618 was found in Dalmatia. 100 % people from Crvena Stijena also participated in some form in Cardial Dalmatian Neolithic culture. Dalmatian Neolithic is known to have had some Meoslithic influence, also autosomally seen in one sample there with a bunch of blue eye mutations and WHG influence.
To quote Yugoslav archaeologist Borivoj Čović:
The culture of Mesolithic inhabitants of Crvena Stijena is firmly tied to the contemporary cultures of Northern Africa, especially to those of so-called Capsian type... The congruence in shapes of a large number of smaller tools (out of which some are highly specialized tools for fine processing of skin and bones) are of such degree that they do not leave much space to doubt, and primarily Northafrican origin not only of these forms but also of the Mesolithic population of Crvena Stijena.


Furthermore going by current genetic evidence the Dalmatian Cardial sample is negative to two SNP's at the L618 level, that in addition to their current spread might be used as evidence to suggest all of current L618, V13- samples are of European origin. For one L618 clade that already seems obvious. Second clade has Latvian-Lebanese connection but this connection is not Neolithic it is 4800 years old. So either the Lebanese is a descendant of L618 who stayed in Levant or he arrived in EBA from Europe, considering the current evidence latter is more likely.


Interestingly as I mentioned here, there was a skull cult throughout the Dalmatian Cardial Neolithic, without any doubt this pratice is something that was very important to those people. The problem is its origin is unclear. First connotation were Natufians but typologically it resembles more the Mesolithic practices found in Iron Gates culture as well as in some Croatian late Mesolithic sites. As Iberomaurusians and Capsians also showed signs of special treatment of skulls, so direct North African connotation of this cult cannot be excluded.


Additionally in Dalmatian Neolithic the burial practice of leaving the deceased, except chiefs, to be unburied and eaten by wild animals in wilderness has been compared to Maasai by a Yugoslav archaeologist.


But think of this, if E-V13 did arrive from Levant in Neolithic as part of Cardial Pottery wave, then this skull cult descends of Natufians, and because of its importance it can be postulated that the E-V13 throughout Neolithic never spoke Etruscan or some usual EEF, but rather Afroasiatic. From my perspective preferably something proto-Egyptian-like (when I was 12 I knew lot about most pyramids) and Semitic ethnogenesis is closely associated with later J1-Z2331, J2-M205 spread.

Autosomally Dalmatian Neolithic samples had small Iberomaurusian-like influence that EEF's by and large lacked. Though one can connect this to Natufians as well who were 27 % Iberomaurusian.
 
He looked like neither of those lol.

This is E-V13 look lmao

North African Afalou combined with coarse robust proto-Mediterranean type were main Capsian types. So yes as far as I'm concerned it is in my interest that my ancestors were that rather than the EEF sea of usual small gracile, peaceful Meds.. Though they ended up being mainly that in Neolithic regardless like most of Europe.. :D
 
^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

Who says?

What utter nonsense.

As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

Until then, it's all just hot air.
 
Angela, it's just that some people in the genetic enthusiast crowd don't like the fact that the male ancestor of the hg probably looked more like Afrika Bambaataa and less than Ragnar Lothbrok, lol.

E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same time I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup folk are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.
 
Why is that the best scenario when E-M78 is almost non existent in West Asia, both ancient samples and modern distribution.
Had e v13 came from Africa, countries like Albania, Greece, Bulgaria etc where E is at least a quarter of males, should have an abundance of mtDna L African. Instead that MtDna is completely missing, suggesting they were marring Euro women, which suggest they were somewhere in west Asia. Also non Indo-European countries like Finland, Estonia completely miss E v13, instead Sweden an Indo-European country has a good chunk of it
 
Had e v13 came from Africa, countries like Albania, Greece, Bulgaria etc where E is at least a quarter of males, should have an abundance of mtDna L African. Instead that MtDna is completely missing, suggesting they were marring Euro women, which suggest they were somewhere in west Asia. Also non Indo-European countries like Finland, Estonia completely miss E v13, instead Sweden an Indo-European country has a good chunk of it

Iberomaurusians were already abundant in european cro-magnon mtdna and other non African mtdna living in North Africa. So I don’t see why that would be the case.
 
^^Oh, so it's better to be a "coarse" type than a gracile type???

No, not necessarily because Gorilla is far coarser than any Men, and Neantherthal was coarser than any Humans. I would say coarse in a balanced way, but at time in history most people were coarse. Coarse females are usually not perceived as attractive/feminine.

Who says?

What utter nonsense.

I guess women are better judges, and we all know what most women like these days. Generally a degree of robusticity is prefered, albeit in a balanced way.
Also I've seen you here saying in another topic something along the line "not all of our Italian men are small Meds", so sounds to me that "small Med" is not so "desired" eh? :) Truth be told "small Med" are often very balanced, far more than most coarser types, it just lacks some robusticity.

As for them coming directly from North Africa to Europe, that would be perfectly fine with me. However, you have absolutely no proof for it. When you have an ancient sample which even suggests that, please do let us know.

Until then, it's all just hot air.

I presented you some archaeological proof from people with "authority". And from genetic side few indications.. There is no clear proof for many things and yet people still speculate about it. On the other hand if one wants 100 % proof, I suggest wait for 10 or 20 years when it's all settled, but ofc when it is, it is not as interesting..
 
E1b1b and E1b1a diverged about the same I and J diverged. In fact our haplogroup are a prime example of people working on improving themselves and dominating others. Iberomaurusians samples are clear Ancestral North African like types that went around North Africa and Near East alot, taking so many various females, and mtdna lineages so that Iberomaurusians were pred. autosomally Eurasian. This happened for thousands of years, and all those females gladly accepted the pastoral E1b1b men more so than various L, T etc... The only J people left with their original language are Chechens, Dagestanis etc. The only G people who kept theirs are Kartvelians, Circassians. So E1b1b is as successful as R1. And of course not for forget proto-Turkic Q.

And I don't mind my ancestor looking like Lebron James, Deontay Wilder, or Mike Tyson even if it were the case (and it wasn't). Pigmentation itself is almost nothing except some personal cosmetic sense. Larger bones, mandibles/jaws, muscles etc. is.

Of course you forget to mention that the I Mesolithic people who might have been the ancestors of Ragnar were dark skinned people. If some English Americans or Spanish Conquistadors had encountered them, they would have considered them as "Blacks". Not to mention the fact that these R1 English and Spanish did encounter in Native Americans their own ancestors! They diverged comparatively much later, 28 000 years ago. So if E1b1b and E1b1a are same why are I and J not the same and why are R and Q not the same either? The R1 men did similar thing as E1b1b men, totally altering themselves by taking a range of hg I and other autosomes. That's what successful groups do, they move around alot encounter a range of adversaries, pick up experience and genes etc., they simply socially evolve at higher pace.

I totally agree with you. Also, E1b1a heavily mixed with more Y-DNA B and A carrying Sub-Saharans, so we don't really know how they looked like initially. But their evolutionary route is way different than E1b1b's. Sort of similar like R1 and Q's.
 
Of course I meant no pejorative against gracile med types. To my eyes, most of the most beautiful people in the world, men and women both, are at least partly gracile med.

See this thread post 20.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39554-Time-for-some-fun-Guess-this-man?p=592625#post592625

On the other hand, a little coarseness of feature doesn't spoil it, and may even enhance it, but even someone as gorgeous as Engin Akyurek would look better without that really heavy eyebone area. A little of it goes a long way. Personal preference, I understand.

As I said upthread, I don't personally care how E-V13 got into Europe. I just think that the evidence right now, based on the fact that immediate predecessors are in Cardial Neolithic and other Balkan Neolithic samples, is that it came to Europe via West Asia, either with the Neolithic farmers or slightly before. There are no genetic samples in North Africa which would indicate otherwise.

If for some reason you want to believe that, believe it.
 

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