Where did E-V13 originate ?

You can't get closer to Eastern Urnfielders than Classical Illyrians. So, we should expect several different groups during LBA in Balkans.

Ofc only Eastern Urnfield is realistic for younger V13 clades.

Guys where can I read more regarding the culture of proto-Illyrians?
Both L283 and V13 seem to predate both Urnfield and Hallstatt especially deep in the Balkans, I am just looking for sources regarding these claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Southeastern_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture <- Not a single mention of Illyrians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture <- It is commonly associated with Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in the Western Hallstatt zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in the eastern Hallstatt zone.[1][2]
Search for non-wikipedia material, there was heavy Urnfield (pre-Hallstat) influence in Illyrian areas. Celtic proper is Western Hallstat and La Tene culture.
Yet Hallstatt seems a bit late for both L283 and V13.

It is late for "V13", it is not late for E-CTS9320, for E-L241.. For J-L283 it is not only late but impossible to fit into most of J-L283 because of much weaker presence in Carpatho-Pannonian areas.


I just took a look at this site in Bulgaria where J2a1a1b, and I-L702 (per this ISOGG) were found. This is "Yunatsite" culture, first half of the 3rd millenium BC so this is not where E-V13 is to be expected.. Earliest V13 migrants must come little bit later at least..

Interesting below are the R-L52 and R-Z2103 finds from EBA Bulgaria, it would be interesting to see the exact cultural context. They are not from Yunatsite sites.

I'm trying to get more info on these R1b finds. Trying to catch this guy when he's moving and revealing more of the screen..:LOL::LOL: That way I already got more info.

In any case V13 is stronk later, at the same time taking this and earlier studies with large Neolithic, Chalolithic and Early EBA sample into account, it is clear V13 is not native there in Neolithic/Chalcolitic/Early EBA (2500 BC and before..) as expected looking at the diversity etc.

So the lone Bulgar tested was Q-L53. Not unexpected at all, though I kinda expected Hunnic Q-L712. He was speaking something about the autosomal, and he mostly spoke about Bulgars hg in general.. As he said this study will be published only in 2021 so it's good we've got this info this early. There is ofc still plenty to wait for (BAM files etc.).
 
EIA, LIA, LA - Thrace E-V13 ownage. To have E-V13 pop out as no.1 in all eras is a clear sign Thracians had up to 50 % or more of E-V13.. :cool-v: Just as the coming Viminatium LA results will show for the Moesian areas..

All of you E-V13 = Illyrian just got blown to bits.:LOL: :LOL: I never supported that for my hg's sake, E-V13 originally came from the Western Balkans, to have them as locals there means as Albanian admin Skerdilaid/Leki put it originally they were "just farmers who accepted Illyrian culture". The problem is, it is clearly a BA haplogroup, and not Neolithic hg.. So they won't be just some "farmers doing their farming and eagerly accepting being owned"..:LOL:

I hope you're not suggesting that Illyrians couldn't have had V13. That modern V13 expanded starting in the Bronze Age is no news either.

Unfortunately, no Iron Age Y-DNA from western Balkans/Illyrian areas as of yet. But considering V13 is showing expansion since +4000 ybp, it would be illogical to assume that it was part of a single Iron Age ethnicity, as you seem to imply.
 
A single EIA Thracian site with strong ties to Northern Greece doesn't tell anything. E-V13 will be widespread and will definitely not exceed 30-40% at any Ancient Balkan population. We should expect Illyrians from Albania, Paeonians, Ancient Macedonians/Dorians, Epirotes to have E-V13 as well. And, Dardanians ofcourse.
 
I hope you're not suggesting that Illyrians couldn't have had V13. That V13 expanded starting in the bronze age is no news either.
Unfortunately, no Iron Age Y-DNA from western Balkans/Illyrian areas as of yet. But considering V13 is showing expansion since +4000 ybp, it would be logical to assume that it wasn't part of a single Iron Age ethnicity, as you seem to imply.

No ofc not, and even plenty of Bulgarian E-V13 would have been incomers from other areas, because as I've said it seems there wasn't too much happening in MBA Bulgaria, usually what is mentioned are some strong EIA cultures, such as Besarabi, Zimnicea-Plovdiv etc.

However I always maintained that when it comes to the Western Balkans E-V13 seems to show very strong EBA/basal and EIA/LBA diversity. Not as much diversity in the middle. The first refers to the supposed Cetina remnants (PH1246) who just continued to live there, but obviously the second is mostly related to these younger but very expansive clades such as CTS9320, L241, FGC11450 and some other Z5018 clades. Obviously these must be related to the Bronze Age collapse movements.

For some E-V13 clades as it is already it is obvious they are very Illyrian, for example the Z16988 clade.. There are some Z16988 basals in Bulgaria/Moldova too interestingly, probably some link from the early expansion..

For me the game changer was finding clear links of Glina III-Schneckenberg culture (modern day Romania) in the pre-proto-Cetina phase (which corresponds with the separation of E-CTS1273). Until that point V13 didn't make much sense (at least going from the Cetina culture as starting point).. After that point E-V13 makes perfect sense.. Not only when it comes to basal BY3880's but also these younger clades.
 
A single EIA Thracian site with strong ties to Northern Greece doesn't tell anything. E-V13 will be widespread and will definitely not exceed 30-40% at any Ancient Balkan population. We should expect Illyrians from Albania, Paeonians, Ancient Macedonians/Dorians, Epirotes to have E-V13 as well. And, Dardanians ofcourse.

I supect there were regional variations especially among the Illyrians.. And you mean modern Northern Greece?? :grin: In reality much of "modern Northern Greece" was Thracian.. Take a look at this map. Today, Greek are the areas ancient Greeks have nothing to do with. And these finds are from the core Thracian territory, they aren't really bordering the ancient Greeks... Interesting, we had that old E-Z1919 sample from Svilengrad, I'm not sure the site was exactly the same. I wouldn't expect these two to include that sample.. That's why although we have one Greek E-CTS9320* (SNP pack), I cannot yet make up my mind about his ancient connections because he is actually only 10 miles away from these Thracian finds..

332.jpg
 
I supect there were regional variations especially among the Illyrians.. And you mean modern Northern Greece?? :grin: In reality much of "modern Northern Greece" was Thracian.. take a look at this map. Today, Greek are the areas ancient Greeks have nothing to do with. And these finds are from the core Thracian territory.. Interesting, we had that old E-Z1919 sample from Svilengrad, I'm not sure the site was exactly the same. I wouldn't expect these two to include that sample. That's why although we have one Greek E-CTS9320* (SNP pack), I cannot yet make up my mind about his ancient connections because he is actually only 10 miles away from these Thracian finds..

332.jpg

A study regarding the site which those E-V13 were found.

This paper brings together old and new archaeobotanical evidence from 20 archaeological sites from Iron Age contexts spanning from the end of the 2nd millennium BC up to the end of the 4th century BC in northern Greece and southern Bulgaria. The sites are Karabournaki, Thessaloniki Toumba and Polichni in central Macedonia in northern Greece and Bresto, Malenovo, Dolno Cherkovishte, Kapitan Andreevo, Svilengrad and Dana Bunar in the region of south Bulgaria. A variety of cereals and pulses, already cultivated since Neolithic and Bronze Age times, are identified as potential culinary ingredients in both regions, yet the list of crops from northern Greece includes a wider diversity than that from the Bulgarian sites, especially regarding the fruit remains. Continuities and discontinuities of plant ingredients in space and time are discussed in relation to potential taphonomic biases. This new evidence from the region indicates that during the Iron Age this part of southeastern Europe shared common traditions in terms of the plant species consumed, with some differences already visible during the Late Bronze Age.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...haeobotanical_Evidence_of_Greece_and_Bulgaria
 
And, definitely there was a LBA/EIA Urnfield layer in Western Balkans.

Especially in the context of the assumed expansion of the so-called “Urnfield bronzes” towards the Mediterranean cultures, the area of the western Balkans was often considered as a main connection. Considering that most of the sampled objects are indeed closely connected with typical Urnfield bronze spectrum, the results of this project will contribute to elucidate possible significance of the local communities within wider historical processes between Central Europe and Mediterranean.


https://www.orea.oeaw.ac.at/en/rese...etallurgy-in-the-western-and-central-balkans/
 
A study regarding the site which those E-V13 were found.

Greeks were the factor in ancient times. They had colonies.. These are crops. And culinary ingredients travel much easier than people. Making sushi doesn't make me ethnically Japanese. That way one might as well claim most Albanian E-V13's descend of Greek colonists...

Yet the current aDNA evidence is clear even at smaller sample. E-V13 has strong Thracian connection, stronger than either the Greek or Illyrian. Because you see although the sample is small, when you test any population more common hg's pop out the first.. We already have E-FGC44169 Getae from 300 BC, and now these Thracians. Plus in different eras, couldn't see from where these later LIA and LA samples are from. LIA sample had "contamination", because of that he is just "E". Needless to say the options under "E" for him are limited.. Early and limited aDNA connected to Ancient Greece and Illyrians is of different variety. Albeit we are soon apparently getting more of Greeks and still no E-V13's.. Ofc they will appear..
 
Greeks were the factor in ancient times. They had colonies.. These are crops. And culinary ingredients travel much easier than people. Making sushi doesn't make me ethnically Japanese. That way one might as well claim most Albanian E-V13's descend of Greek colonists...

Yet the current aDNA evidence is clear even at smaller sample. E-V13 has strong Thracian connection, stronger than either the Greek or Illyrian. Because you see although the sample is small, when you test any population more common hg's pop out the first.. We already have E-FGC44169 Getae from 300 BC, and now these Thracians. Plus in different eras, couldn't see from where these later LIA and LA samples are from. LIA sample had "contamination", because of that he is just "E". Needless to say the options under "E" for him are limited.. Early and limited aDNA connected to Ancient Greece and Illyrians is of different variety. Albeit we are soon apparently getting more of Greeks and still no E-V13's.. Ofc they will appear..

So you are suggesting all E-V13 are Thracian descended. :LOL:
 
So you are suggesting all E-V13 are Thracian descended. :LOL:

Nope. But I do suggest that if you ask the question: "which one of the three, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks might have had the strongest impact (biological/cultural) of E-V13 clades", then I would answer likely the Thracians..

I do not believe basal E-V13 clades are originally "Thracian" especially if Thracians are LBA/EIA people, like the Illyrians.. These basals were mostly something "undefined" by the Iron Age standard..

Per my model of E-V13 expansion some V13 clades reached various Balkan areas already in 2000 BC..


I managed to get regarding those Bulgarian EBA R1b's "oNorth..", hmm maybe "o" is for outlier, Northern Bulgarian outlier?? Like that Bulgarian Yamnaya outlier from the earlier study (Bul4).. If so, I wouldn't expect V13 there either.. That outlier was almost 5000 years old..
 
I managed to get regarding those Bulgarian EBA R1b's "oNorth..", hmm maybe "o" is for outlier, Northern Bulgarian outlier?? Like that Bulgarian Yamnaya outlier from the earlier study (Bul4).. If so, I wouldn't expect V13 there either.. That outlier was almost 5000 years old..

There is another EIA sample with "o", and two with "lc" abbreviation. Obviously lc = low quality.
And "o" is one of two Svilengrad samples, the other, including seven samples near Svilengrad has no "o".

I guess it means he is an autosomal outlier indeed!!

So these R1b's are likely some autosomal outliers also, in the sense they depart from the Yamnaya standard or the average EBA Bulgarian standard... North might mean "geographically" or "more Steppe genetically", latter is more likely.. Probably some older group (that Bulgarian outlier was 4900-5000 years old), not where I would expect the E-V13..


And it seems this "o" indicates one Svilengrad sample is autosomally different from the other Thracian samples near/around Svilengrad..
That means ofc E-V13 samples from there are autosomally Thracian (as established by 9 samples) and cannot have any recent foreign ancestry..

Progon, you got beaten by a single letter.. :grin: E-V13 guys are obviously autosomally Thracian..


EDIT: of course "o" is an outlier. The Bulgar sample has "oEastAsian", quite clearly an outlier in an East Asian direction, expectedly. So the EBA R1b samples are outliers in Steppe direction.. Probably some very early Yamnaya (maybe even BB as one was L52) migration..
 
haha you are having multiple orgasms probably. You will live to see that Illyrians and Greeks as well will show the same E-V13 amount as Thracians. It will not exceed 40% among any ancient ethnicity though. This Thracian burial was irrelevant anyway.
 
You will live to see that Illyrians and Greeks as well will show the same E-V13 amount as Thracians.

They won't.:)

Maybe regionally.

Even looking at our major E-V13 clade of my own CTS9320, whose age and spread point to some very influential group in LBA/EIA..

Currently on the tree you kinda see more Western orientation especially with these Z16988, but lets take a look at some SNP confirmed E-CTS9320 who are negative to all of these subclades:
-Bulgarian, NW Bulgaria. Has a cousin in Romania from scientific paper but ofc due to Romanians being poorly tested you don't see that at FTDNA or at YFull
-Bulgarian, North Bulgaria. Has multiple cousins in Romania, and one cousin iz Szekely Hungarians from studies.
-Greek near Svilengrad I mentioned
-Ossetian

It's very hard to fit these into Illyrians proper.

I suspect CTS9320 was part of an Eastern Urnfield group, one of these cultures was a mixture of various elements, Thracian, would be Illyrian, and even Cimmerian. I found this culture recently, unlike most Urnfielders they had more inhumations, it would be interesting to test them.

Even though for example Thracians, Getae-Dacians preferred cremation often there were some inhumation sites.

Among some Illyrians from for example Bosnia, so Pannonians, the cult of Thracian Horseman was popular.

In any case you can't claim ridiculous things like Derite and Leki used to. That Bulgarian E-V13 came to Bulgaria in the Early Medieval.

This find is great, but equaly important to me are these LIA and LA finds, which indicate more than anything else the strength of V13 in Thracians.
 
For example there are these "Hungarian Scythians", DA191, DA194, DA195, DA197. They aren't Scythian at all. In fact in one those sites where they were found (3 of them) there were also 13 Urn burials! So actually they are Urnfield people, pre-Celtic. Some are more Western-like, but not Germanic, nor Celtic I guess, some were more Balkan-like.

Also scy009 from Ukraine, there isn't anything "Scythian" about this find. Looks like some pre-Scythian local represented by R-Z280 who later mixed up with some other elements to create the proto-Slavs.

As there aren't too many Pannonian-Carpathian finds, its good they tested these "Scythians" who are actually Urnfielders, Getae and pre-Slavs who were politically Scythians. Because many of them would have been cremated had they not become Scythian.:grin:
 
It's not really a surprise, many of us predicted that most E-V13 subclades appeared in the southern Balkans mostly in LBA and EIA.
What's interesting in the video is that when asked why Bulgaria is chosed by Reich and his team, Stamov answers that Harward thinks that the genesis of the Mycenaeans/Achaeans, the Troyans, the Hittites and other Anatolian Indo-European people happened on the territory of modern Bulgaria and from there it split and migrated to Greece and Anatolia.
That's telling from linguist point of view as we know the closest language to Greek is the Armenian.
I've been saying before that the proto-Greeks probably came from the direction of Bulgaria. It's not a surprise also when you try to model the Mycenaeans with G25, they require big chunk of Bulgarian Neolithic and Bulgarian EBA on top of Minoan. The only foreign element that the ancient Greeks will receive later on will be from Cetina culture and this will be connected with the north-western ancient Greeks AKA Dorians. This branch of J-M241 looks very Dorian and ancient Greek: J-FGC55768
With a founder effect around 800 BCE during the Greek colonization of Southern Italy, it contains a Greek, a Sicilian from Messina(an ancient Dorian colony) and Aschkenazi Jews. One level upstream there is another Greek from Kozani, Macedonia which might very well turn an ancient Macedonian lineage.
And there were so no E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria which again confirms what I thought and that is, the Mycenaeans and the Anatolians were pushed in Greece and Anatolia by a new population coming from direction of Pannonia and Croatia. A population which would give birth to to the Thracians. This is confirmed again with G25 because when modeling the IA Bulgaria, it doesn't require any EBA Bulgaria but needs something such as Croatia MBA or Hungary BA on top of Mycenaean like DNA. Which means that the Mycenaean like DNA was widespread all the way to Bulgaria before being diluted by the new migrants. These new migrants brought with them plenty of E-V13. Once again it goes hand in hand archaeologically as well. I wrote about this before that Vucedol elements survived South of lake Balaton in modern Hungary. From there mixed with new Indo-European element they will start invading the southern Balkans. Basically the proto-Greek and other proto-Anatolians were the product of Yamnaya while later Thracian, Dacian will be products of Corded-Ware or Bell Beaker element that will spread cremation burials in the Balkans. No wonder there was such a sharp difference between these languages although they bordered each other.
 
According to some sources, the E-V13 was born in Anatolia, but appeared in Spain around 7000 BC, but this remains to be confirmed, it is sure that the E-V13 has been in the Balkans since the Bronze Age, like the J2b
 
I find it extremely unlikely to believe Thracians came from Adriatic side of Balkans, the scenario of LBA/EIA looks more complex than that.
Whatever language these people spoke i don't know: http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf4.pdf

But they spread all over Balkans and probably they were latter absorbed into the host populations.

According to some sources, the E-V13 was born in Anatolia, but appeared in Spain around 7000 BC, but this remains to be confirmed, it is sure that the E-V13 has been in the Balkans since the Bronze Age, like the J2b

E-L618 the pre E-V13 mutation was found in Early Neolithic Croatia, Cardial Ware, in a thousand year younger site than the Croatian one, the E-V13 was found in Spanish Cardial, and Spanish Cardial had it's origin from Adriatic coast. So E-V13 mutation either rose up somewhere North of Italy/Alpine region, hypothetically.
 
The only foreign element that the ancient Greeks will receive later on will be from Cetina culture and this will be connected with the north-western ancient Greeks AKA Dorians. This branch of J-M241 looks very Dorian and ancient Greek: J-FGC55768 With a founder effect around 800 BCE during the Greek colonization of Southern Italy, it contains a Greek, a Sicilian from Messina(an ancient Dorian colony) and Aschkenazi Jews. One level upstream there is another Greek from Kozani, Macedonia which might very well turn an ancient Macedonian lineage.


J-FGC55768 looks to have migrated to Greece but
1) There is no basis whatsoever to connect J-L631 with the Cetina culture. It is too young, EIA.
2) J-Y98609 also includes Bosniaks from Montenegro


The likely origin point for Z631 is Glasinac-Mati complex. Non-cremation pre-Urnfield people.


Cetina culture dissapeared 1600-1700 BC. It left no direct heirs. Neighbor to Cetina culture Posušje culture was J-L283. According to consensus of experts, these two populations were different genetically, nothing to do with each other so Cetina wasn't J-L283.


Cetina was ofc likely 70-100 % E-V13, namely E-Y37092.


E-Y37092's resemblance with Cetina proper is striking.
Vasojevici tribe and their relatives from Bosnia (YF75867).
Rajovici
Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058


So you have lots of them in proximity to each other with a TMRCA of over 4000 years.. Possibly another clan from Montenegro belongs to some Y37092.

I believe in general it is dubious to suggest E-V13 descends from some Hungarian or Central European, Tripillia E-V13 remnant, as E-V13 was not common there, E-L618 enclave was present in Dalmatia and this element DID survive to take part in creation of the proto-Cetina culture..




And there were so no E-V13 in EBA Bulgaria which again confirms what I thought and that is, the Mycenaeans and the Anatolians were pushed in Greece and Anatolia by a new population coming from direction of Pannonia and Croatia. A population which would give birth to to the Thracians.

All EBA tested from Bulgaria are from the very Early EBA, 2500-3000 BC, that is why there is no E-V13. But lets wait for later EBA, EBA/MBA crossover. So there is no such "confirmation".. They came in force in EIA/LBA for sure, but it's not like they were non-existent. Current spread of V13 clades does not support that.


later Thracian, Dacian will be products of Corded-Ware or Bell Beaker element that will spread cremation burials in the Balkans. No wonder there was such a sharp difference between these languages although they bordered each other.

Generally Bell Beakers were not the ones practicing cremation nor tumuli burial. Thracian traditions such as kurgan/tumuli burial with cremated remains have a long history. It starts with the Cetina culture and its sister Glina III culture which spread this tradition to begin with. One can still see this fundamental resemblance of these with the Free Dacian Carpathian kurgan culture from 4th century AD..

Thracian thing has E-V13 © written all over it.

Vucedol was tested as R-Z2103 and G2a. Finding G2a doesn't bode well for E-V13.. Cetina was not directly connected to Vucedol, some Yugoslav archaeologists used to connect them 50+ years ago..


I find it extremely unlikely to believe Thracians came from Adriatic side of Balkans, the scenario of LBA/EIA looks more complex than that.


They didn't, but there is nothing unlikely about clear archaeological and genetic evidence which points to Early EBA Adriatic -> Pannono-Carpathian basin.

Essentially E-V13 Dalmatian Neolithic remnant survived and in EBA they met the incoming J-L283's. J-L283's were saying to them "we wuz Illyrians", E-V13 met some R-Z2103's and showed the middle finger to the J-L283's saying "we wuz Thracians"..:cool-v:
 
J-FGC55768 looks to have migrated to Greece but
1) There is no basis whatsoever to connect J-L631 with the Cetina culture. It is too young, EIA.
2) J-Y98609 also includes Bosniaks from Montenegro
Why not when the only ancient J-L283 samples from the Balkans so far is one exactly from the time and area of Cetina culture. Plus don't forget the Etruscan who autosomally had clear ties with the Balkans and was closely related to the Cetina J-L283 sample.
The likely origin point for Z631 is Glasinac-Mati complex. Non-cremation pre-Urnfield people.
Then what was the haplogroup that brought the exact Cetina related burials in Greece which were radically different than the previous Mycenaean related burials? And it's not just the burials, there are many Cetina related artifacts in connection to the Dorians. I will post you link to those once I am on my laptop. Plus you should not look at YFULL estimations as the final and only TMRCA date. These are just estimations but can vary with few hundred years plus and minus. Many people are on the opinion that YFULL's estimations are underestimated by 10-15% which if we apply it on the current estimation would mean TMRCA of 1200 BCE which is at the beginning of the Urnfield period and which is far more accurate imo. T different style of Glasinac traditions with the Dorian Greek ones means that in their ethnogenesis probably took part some more Northern J-Z631 subclades that were previously part of Cetina culture and later part of Eastern Urnfield. And is telling because the upstream samples of J-FGC55768 are located in Central Europe.
Cetina culture dissapeared 1600-1700 BC. It left no direct heirs. Neighbor to Cetina culture Posušje culture was J-L283. According to consensus of experts, these two populations were different genetically, nothing to do with each other so Cetina wasn't J-L283.
This of course is not correct when we have a MBA sample from Dalmatia(1600-1500 BCE) that is J-L283. That is the period at the very end of Cetina culture. The Croatian Wikipedia as well as some other sources put it 1500 BCE as it's end.
Cetina was ofc likely 70-100 % E-V13, namely E-Y37092.
Well this is just a speculation of yours at this point. We don't have either one E-V13 sample from that region and from that time period.
E-Y37092's resemblance with Cetina proper is striking.
Vasojevici tribe and their relatives from Bosnia (YF75867).
Rajovici
Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058
So you have lots of them in proximity to each other with a TMRCA of over 4000 years.. Possibly another clan from Montenegro belongs to some Y37092.
I do believe that this subclade of E-V13 is Cetina related however but to suggest it was 70% of Cetina subclades is just dubious to say the least.
I believe in general it is dubious to suggest E-V13 descends from some Hungarian or Central European, Tripillia E-V13 remnant, as E-V13 was not common there, E-L618 enclave was present in Dalmatia and this element DID survive to take part in creation of the proto-Cetina culture..
If you read correctly what I wrote you would noticed that Vucedol Neolithic related elements survived South of Balaton lake. And E-L618 was also found in Lengyel and Sopot cultures. And E-V13 wasn't common there because it was a single man that spread his genes around EBA. Also how many samples we have south of Balaton lake? Most of the Hungarian samples are from other parts of Hungary. Let remind you that there are no E-V13 samples in EBA Bulgaria as well.
All EBA tested from Bulgaria are from the very Early EBA, 2500-3000 BC, that is why there is no E-V13. But lets wait for later EBA, EBA/MBA crossover. So there is no such "confirmation".. They came in force in EIA/LBA for sure, but it's not like they were non-existent. Current spread of V13 clades does not support that.
And that is one of the biggest mistakes someone can make, looking at current distribution. As for the rest, pay attention to what I said previously.
Generally Bell Beakers were not the ones practicing cremation nor tumuli burial. Thracian traditions such as kurgan/tumuli burial with cremated remains have a long history. It starts with the Cetina culture and its sister Glina III culture which spread this tradition to begin with. One can still see this fundamental resemblance of these with the Free Dacian Carpathian kurgan culture from 4th century AD..
This is not true, some Bell Beakers did practice cremation burials but this tradition has its roots in the Carpathian Basin. Any sources for Glina III being a sister culture of Cetina? Glina III culture didn't practice cremation and was in connection with the first intrusions of the Steppe people, the Yamnaya guys. They were known for their specific knob pottery and inhumation burials. It was later replaced by migrants that brought cremation and incised pottery. So I don't know how Glina III can be related to spread of E-V13 in the Balkan but let just say that we don't agree here.
 
Based on the questions he posed in the other threads, i can think that he is J2b2 and he hates the fact E-V13 is widespread in the Balkans. He gives me that impression.


I think we have seen this guy plenty of times before.. Did he do a Y-DNA test in the meantime and found out he is J2b2??


I don't know, but likely yes. He can be of that low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2 (some of them to be honest not all), who fantasize of being some sort of elite Kurgan warriors and E-V13 are Zoomalis.


Lack of V13 in EBA Bulgaria as I've said is not indicative of anything unless they have samples from the late EBA (2000 BC, 2800 BC is not of much relevance to V13). Actually archaeologically in Bulgaria during the Bronze Age there wasn't too much, all agree that Thracians were formed in the Early Iron Age by a series of cultures..


Albanians have high diversity of Z5018 but Bulgarians have as high/higher diversity of Z5018, especially some clades. Generally they are LBA/EIA distance which suggests Late Bronze Age collapse/Urnfield..


I don't disagree that Urnfield groups had plenty of E-V13. But the point is people like Thracians were too part of Urnfield, Thracians practiced cremation. Dacians proper were quite an Urnfield people in most respects etc.


About Illyrians, most say more typical of them was inhumation, in essence all those Illyrian cultures which practiced inhumation had clear connections with the pre-Unrfield Illyrian spectrum, and with that J-L283 find. So no doubt J-L283 has little to do with the Urnfield, they were the newcomers in 2000 BC. Some E-V13's were likely there living with them (such as those older PH1246's).


Among Illyrians you had Glasinac-Mati complex which was archaeologically directly connected to that J-L283 find. And the second part were these Urnfield related migrations. Not all of them are necessarily Urnfield proper, but they are related to Urnfield.


The unknown thing is the language, which group brought the Illyrian language, but in that respect they were divided along the Glasinac-Urnfield line.


Looks like only E-V13 lived in Thrace since the Iron Age based on these results!! Not only two near Slivengrad but also one "E" in Late Iron Age, and also one E-V13 in LA - "Late Antiquity"... We also had one E, slightly above V13 from Thrace years ago (he is V13 too fc, I think some confirmed it).. This is a really telling sign, you jump the eras and E-V13 comes out first...


Regarding the EBA, it depends what "EBA" means, some E-V13 clades suggest an expansion in Bulgarian regions rather in Late EBA, not in Early EBA. However the most numerous E-V13 clades have LBA, EIA TMRCA.


Ofc I knew that in advance based on E-V13 diversity. And unlike Serbs and Albanians, half of Bulgarian population is not descended from 10-15 individuals who lived in the Medieval times, so they are lot more heterogeneous..


EIA, LIA, LA - Thrace E-V13 ownage. To have E-V13 pop out as no.1 in all eras is a clear sign Thracians had up to 50 % or more of E-V13.. Just as the coming Viminatium LA results will show for the Moesian areas..


All of you E-V13 = Illyrian just got blown to bits. I never supported that for my hg's sake, E-V13 originally came from the Western Balkans, to have them as locals there means as Albanian admin Skerdilaid/Leki put it originally they were "just farmers who accepted Illyrian culture". The problem is, it is clearly a BA haplogroup, and not Neolithic hg.. So they won't be just some "farmers doing their farming and eagerly accepting being owned"..


J-FGC55768 looks to have migrated to Greece but
1) There is no basis whatsoever to connect J-L631 (???) with the Cetina culture. It is too young, EIA.
2) J-Y98609 also includes Bosniaks from Montenegro




The likely origin point for Z631 is Glasinac-Mati complex. Non-cremation pre-Urnfield people. (If you meant Z631 above, How is it too young? Dude... formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp)




Cetina culture dissapeared 1600-1700 BC. It left no direct heirs. Neighbor to Cetina culture Posušje culture was J-L283. According to consensus of experts, these two populations were different genetically, nothing to do with each other so Cetina wasn't J-L283.




Cetina was ofc likely 70-100 % E-V13, namely E-Y37092. (OMEGALUL!!!)




E-Y37092's resemblance with Cetina proper is striking.
Vasojevici tribe and their relatives from Bosnia (YF75867).
Rajovici
Albanian Dushmani E-Y173058




So you have lots of them in proximity to each other with a TMRCA of over 4000 years.. Possibly another clan from Montenegro belongs to some Y37092.


I believe in general it is dubious to suggest E-V13 descends from some Hungarian or Central European, Tripillia E-V13 remnant, as E-V13 was not common there, E-L618 enclave was present in Dalmatia and this element DID survive to take part in creation of the proto-Cetina culture..












All EBA tested from Bulgaria are from the very Early EBA, 2500-3000 BC, that is why there is no E-V13. But lets wait for later EBA, EBA/MBA crossover. So there is no such "confirmation".. They came in force in EIA/LBA for sure, but it's not like they were non-existent. Current spread of V13 clades does not support that.








Generally Bell Beakers were not the ones practicing cremation nor tumuli burial. Thracian traditions such as kurgan/tumuli burial with cremated remains have a long history. It starts with the Cetina culture and its sister Glina III culture which spread this tradition to begin with. One can still see this fundamental resemblance of these with the Free Dacian Carpathian kurgan culture from 4th century AD..


Thracian thing has E-V13 © written all over it.


Vucedol was tested as R-Z2103 and G2a. Finding G2a doesn't bode well for E-V13.. Cetina was not directly connected to Vucedol, some Yugoslav archaeologists used to connect them 50+ years ago..










They didn't, but there is nothing unlikely about clear archaeological and genetic evidence which points to Early EBA Adriatic -> Pannono-Carpathian basin.


Essentially E-V13 Dalmatian Neolithic remnant survived and in EBA (Bronze Age Greece (2800–1200 BC / Early Bronze Age: 20th to 16th centuries BCE),they met the incoming J-L283's. J-L283's were saying to them "we wuz Illyrians", E-V13 met some R-Z2103's and showed the middle finger to the J-L283's saying "we wuz Thracians"..
(My friend when? were "Illyria/Illyrian" and "Thrace / Thracian" first mentioned as terms? How old is L283 and V13? When you answer those questions, check these https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anachronism / https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asynchronous .) I am sure those words are going to be of use for you.
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I just can't... WTF?!

And you and Progon are saying L283 have a problem with V13... which I have never personally witnessed, yet in all this mess the sour ones are you as individuals (not a group).

Aspurg, do you realize you contradict yourself in your own posts (check the highlighted parts and keep in mind the mutual exclusivity of those statements)? For someone boasting such confidence, I wonder if its the Dunning-Kruger effect, in combination with cognitive dissonance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Stop this Nietzschean Master-Slave morality based discourse... as if we have any clue who was farmers and who was what, else you are no better than the "low IQ group from Apricity Albanians with Y-DNA J2b2"...

"Essentially E-V13 Dalmatian Neolithic remnant survived and in EBA (Bronze Age Greece (2800–1200 BC / Early Bronze Age: 20th to 16th centuries BCE),they met the incoming J-L283's. J-L283's were saying to them "we wuz Illyrians", E-V13 met some R-Z2103's and showed the middle finger to the J-L283's saying "we wuz Thracians"

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