Where did E-V13 originate ?

[LeoJ]

Why don't you do a test?

I already replied above. When the first time entered this 'domain' of hg's I done it for knowing who were in fact the daco-getae peoples, and therefore the thracians. My suspicion was the E hg. Also, what is this 15 year old ''pelasgian' thesis ? Relation or correlation between pelagians and the (proto)greeks ?

 

[Riverman]

I think so. The clue of almost all hg problems resides in the carpathian basin and surroundings, so in Romania position. Here is the mother of all mixtures between cultures, peoples, migration routes; the melting pot, no doubt at all. Also here is such a low interest in peoples get tested. The real inconvenient reason is the natural highly materialistic conception of the people. Why to throw away 100 Euro's and get a test ? For what use ? And coupled with the low standard of living as well. But I have the same belief that romanians MUST to be tested for solving the big picture. I wanted some time ago to test myself but localy only the https://www.myheritage.ro is doing it, and I don't know on what level deep goes into the hg's. They don't reply to my emails asking for that. Btw, what do you recommend me the most complex one for ?

I would recommend FTDNA or YSEQ. FTDNA has now sales with BigY being reduced. As far as I know FTDNA does ship to all EU countries without problems.

 

[Aspurg]

When the first time entered this 'domain' of hg's I done it for knowing who were in fact the daco-getae peoples, and therefore the thracians. My suspicion was the E hg. Also, what is this 15 year old ''pelasgian' thesis ? Relation or correlation between pelagians and the (proto)greeks ?

It refers to an old narrative that E-V13 spread with the Neolithic migrations from the Southern Balkans to the North, and then to other areas. This dates to when E-V13 was thought to be the major EEF lineage, as strong as G2a. Studies and now deep tests confirmed this hg spread in Bronze-Age. Some people think that some MENA distant origin hg shouldn't be involved in IE groups. In particular in Balkan areas I saw various I2a people often attacking E-V13.. Its basically "we can't have these MENA's having connections to IE's while us: the oldest Europeans of all aren't"...

No doubt E-V13 was very strong in Thracian groups including Daco-Getae, the new Viminatium paper from Moesian (related to Dacians) area shows V13 dominance. In fact I believe E-V13 was likely stronger in Daco-Getae than in many Thracian areas (where some other hg's rise abit also).

 

[Hawk]

Well after the final results concerning the 30% of samples belonging to hg E-v13 in Roman Viminacium and the 25% hg belonging to E-v13 in Timacum minus, i guess that the "Illyrian swamp" will have much less aggresive crocodiles, the Albanians are overwhelmingly thrilled about this fact (logically!), personally i am a 'outsider' but i sincerely want to know who were those 'Moesians' !!

Well, E-V13 is uniformly spread in the Balkans. Probably, E-V13 has the most consistent spread from all Y-DNA in modern Balkans. Those samples also have R1b and J2b2.

 

[Hawk]

Is it well established among Yugoslav archeologists to connect Crvena Stijena with the Capsian Culture?

 

[Aspurg]

Is it well established among Yugoslav archeologists to connect Crvena Stijena with the Capsian Culture?

My earlier post.

Well this was from 1950s, 1960s.. But this view has been abandoned and rejected. New experts such as Mihailović consider the industry from the Strata IV of Crvena Stijena to be of Castelnovian variety (so WHG).

 

[Hawk]

A visualization based on E-V13 TMRCA, the darker the color the older the TMRCA subclade.


Based on Y-FULL: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

 

[Hawk]

This is for Z5017 TMRCA. The darker the color the older the TMRCA.

 

[Hawk]

And, this is Z5018 subclade TMRCA.

 

[Aspurg]

How do u explain Sicilians belonging quite a lot under this subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/ => some rare branches under this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/) which is neither Z5017/Z5018.

To post it here, I suspect they are of Greek ancestry. E-BY6527 is from Messina (ancestor born in early 18th c.), as is this E-BY3880* from Messina. Is it not odd both of them are from one of the oldest Greek Sicilian colonies? Still very few Greeks have been tested deeply, but we know from the scientific papers that E-V13 reaches 10.9 % in Syracuse, another 8th century Greek colony. Messina was founded by settlers from Euboiea, Syracuse by the Corinthians.

Founded by Greek colonists in the 8th century BC, Messina was originally called Zancle (Greek: Ζάγκλη), from the Greek ζάγκλον meaning "scythe" because of the shape of its natural harbour (though a legend attributes the name to King Zanclus). A comune of its Metropolitan City, located at the southern entrance of the Strait of Messina, is to this day called 'Scaletta Zanclea'. Solinus write that the city of Metauros was established by people from the Zancle.[9]


In the early 5th century BC, Anaxilas of Rhegium renamed it Messene (Μεσσήνη) in honour of the Greek city Messene (See also List of traditional Greek place names). Later, Micythus was the ruler of Rhegium and Zancle, and he also founded the city of Pyxus.[10] The city was sacked in 397 BC by the Carthaginians and then reconquered by Dionysius I of Syracuse.

So these are probably some early BY3880 incursions to the Southern Balkans, pre-Greek or proto-Greek.

 

[Hawk]

There is a large sentiment making anti E-M78/E-V13 propaganda lately. Sub-Saharan Africans and Zagrosi descended Y-DNA J hate us.

 

[kmak]

I think that it is orginated from southern balkanic region.

 

[ratchet_fan]

There is a large sentiment making anti E-M78/E-V13 propaganda lately. Sub-Saharan Africans and Zagrosi descended Y-DNA J hate us.

Why do ydna J hate you? They wiped out most E-M78 guys from West Asia.
Also SSAs think ydna E belongs to them so I also doubt they hate you.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Why do ydna J hate you? They wiped out most E-M78 guys from West Asia.
Also SSAs think ydna E belongs to them so I also doubt they hate you.

Well said. I also wondered that. Plus who hates people based on ydna? xD

 

[Hawk]

Why do ydna J hate you? They wiped out most E-M78 guys from West Asia.
Also SSAs think ydna E belongs to them so I also doubt they hate you.

E-M78 presence in West Asia was minimal always ( and probably even though minimal left linguistic traces of Afro-Asiatic language all over the place ), it was as a hopping place toward Southern Europe. And yes, both SSA and mostly descended Middle Easterners J are claiming everything North of Sahara.

 

[Aspurg]

Some J1's tried to construct a "thesis" that E-M35's are Nilotics and so they "made up" Semitic languages.

About these Bantu E1b1a's. They are not good representatives of hg E.

Shum-Laka paper has Mota having diversified from Eurasians slightly prior to 87 % of Yoruba split. I guess in that region is CT split and E1b1b/E1b1a split..
Yoruba is 87 % from this probably E source.
10.4 % of Yoruba is from Shum-Laka, a very archaic source, non-modern human. TMRCA of CT is 68500 years. Shum-Laka separated 236 k years ago. Think what 10.4 % of this admixture does to your PCA.
On top of that they've got 2.6 % of pre-Neanderthal African hominid. These diverged around 600 000 or more years ago.

I like Pat Ewing. Some very ancient admixture resurfacing.

In the paper Mende have 4 % more of this 80% Shum-Laka/20 % pre-Neanderthal African admixture. At ono point these archaics converged.

Even proto-Mota later received 29 % of Shum-Laka like admixture (priror to Shum-Laka like source mixed with these non-humans). So Mota isn't E proper either.

 

[Aspurg]

On top of that they've got 2.6 % of pre-Neanderthal African hominid. These diverged around 600 000 or more years ago.

I've been looking at the paper, Chimp to these diverging guys, distance 46, and from them to Neanderthal-Human split it is 17. Humans and Chimpanzee's diverged 5 to 7 million years ago. So 46 is this 5-7 million years!! Some other subsequent distances seem lower. For example the entire Eurasian TMRCA is like 40. It seems actually these could have diverged around 2 million years ago?? :grin: That's already ape-like territory. :grin:

It makes sense, when one looks at Khoisan peoples. They are hg A. And in many respects they look closer to Eurasians than to some of their neighbors..

 

[Aspurg]

Mbuti - Pygmies. Wow.

1. 17 % of admixture which split just prior to CT split but after A/B split, that is the haplogrup B obviously. It peaks in Pygmies such as Mbuti or Biaka.
2. 32 % Yoruba-like. This is probably some recent Bantu admixture as Bantu's pushed Pygmies in their expansion, and domination too (Pygmies were often hated by Bantus)
3. 68 % Shum-Laka like.

Yoruba got some Shum-Laka so they got around 71 % of such admixture. They don't have that much of their real proto-Pygmy admixture represented by hg B.

So these smallish Pygmies are actually approximate for Shum-Laka's which separated from us 236 000 years ago. Pygmies have alot less of this pre-neanderthal admixture than E1b1a carrying Bantus. You can only imagine what these people looked like. Bantu's are not small, and in some respects they are simply above all others. Maybe this was some humanoid with not simply chimp but gorilla like tendencies. :grin: It would have had many hundreds of thousands of years or even millions of years to have some sort of separate evolution.

So all modern SSA's bar Khoisans got some serious pre-A admixture. Bar Khoisans, who were isolated. And that's what I was saying, they kinda look Eurasian like don't they. No way original both B's and E's looked so "un-Eurasian" like... Pygmies aren't really real B's at all, and E1b1a's got some far more archaic admixture than Shum-Laka..

See the paper, everything is clear from this paper.

I see an article "Why Pygmies of Africa Are So Short?" Maybe because they are predominately Shum-Laka like??

The autosomal heritage of pre-A's in SSA's today is far stronger than their Y-DNA contribution.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Hey Aspurg, isnt Homo Sapines ~200k y/o as a species? How can they have diverged from "us" earlier than that?

Edit: NVM, newer studies apparently pushed that to 350k.

From wikipedia:

"The divergence of the lineage leading to H. sapiens out of archaic human varieties derived from H. erectus, is estimated as having taken place over 500,000 years ago.^[9][6] Earlier studies estimated the oldest splits among modern populations to date around 160–100,000 years ago (in 2011 and 2012) on the basis of short-sequence fragments and to 300–250,000 years ago after rescaling (in 2012). However, the oldest split among modern human populations (such as the Khoisan split from other populations) was more recently calculated by a 2017 study to date between 350,000 and 260,000 years ago,^[30][31] and the earliest known H. sapiens fossils also date to about that period, including the Jebel Irhoud remains from Morocco (ca. 300,000 or 350–280,000 years ago),^[32] the Florisbad Skull from South Africa (ca. 259,000 years ago), and the Omo remains from Ethiopia (ca. 195,000 years ago).^{[33][34][35][36]}An mtDNA study in 2019 proposed an origin of modern humans in Botswana (and a Khoisan split) of around 200,000 years.^[37] However, this proposal has been widely criticized by scholars,^[38][39][40] with the recent evidence overall (genetic, fossil, and archaeological) supporting an origin for H. sapiens approximately 100,000 years earlier and in a broader region of Africa than the study proposes.<sup>[40]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens#Age_and_speciation_process</sup>

 

[Aspurg]

Hey Aspurg, isnt Homo Sapines ~200k y/o as a species? How can they have diverged from "us" earlier than that?

Of course they can just as Neanderthals have diverged earlier than that. Depends als owhere one draws the line of "species".

I don't think these people were known, I think only in 1994 they were discovered. They are deeply divergent from humans.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/A00/

They separated from all of us 236 k years ago (YFull's estimate, and it should be quite reliable). And Pygmies carry 71 % of A00 descended ancestry. They are their "true" descendants. Only 17 % of hg B ancestry.

And ofc Yorubans got 2.6 % of something which diverged before Neanderthals and after Chimpanzee. Per paper Mende have 3.2 % of this admixture. We don't have their hg yet.

Looking at the paper Shum-Laka descended admixture had some different paths, one branch got into Pygmies, another branch merged with pre-Neanderthals.