Recognizing ethnicity by the nose.

[Tomenable]

Even depigmented most of them wouldn't look typical in Northern Europe.

They are too gracile and too short. Maybe 20% max could pass as typical.

 

[Angela]

"Northern European" is not the standard. "Nordic" is the standard. There are a LOT of Northern and Eastern Europeans who are not "Nordic" by the definition of physical anthropologists.

Plus, the point Coon and other physical anthropologists were making is not that Nordics and Meds are identical but that the two are anciently related.

Ed. In addition, there has been a lot of selection going on over the last 5000 years, in pigmentation certainly, but also I would think in skeleton size based on climate and diet. Head shapes have also changed, I think. I believe I read that Europeans have become more mesocephalic over time.

 

[Tomenable]

Angela here I posted average metrics of Corded Ware skulls:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=482980&viewfull=1#post482980

Do we have metrics of "typical Nordic skull" for comparison?

Or maybe metrics of average EEF Neolithic skull, as well?

 

[Angela]

Angela here I posted average metrics of Corded Ware skulls:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32413-Average-CWC-skull-metrics?p=482980&viewfull=1#post482980

Do we have metrics of "typical Nordic skull" for comparison?

Or maybe metrics of average EEF Neolithic skull, as well?

Sorry, Tomenable, I'm sure they exist, but I don't have them in my files. You might start with Coon. I think a lot of his work is online.

 

[Tomenable]

Data on percentage of convex noses by country / ethnicity:

Armenians: 62%
Albania (Ghegs): "over 50%"
Montenegro: 52%
Jews (Ashkenazi): "below 50%"
Ireland: 45%
Basques: 43% (Spanish); 49% (French)
Netherlands (Frisians): 35%
Italy (North): 32%
Greece: 30%
Switzerland: 25%
Serbia: 25%
Ukraine (Volhynians): 17%
Spain: 15%
Bulgaria: "rare"

I found it here (posters say that it is originally from Carleton S. Coon):

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/single/?p=807948&t=4807332

http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/998/Percentages-of-convex-noses-by-country#.V3mRHdVkjIU

 

[srdceleva]

Its funny becaue the first pictures of what are supposed to the most attractive features, i find completely boring, plain, and not very attractive at all. I actually dont mind a big nose on people with character as long as it somehow fits the persons face and personality. I also would say that the nose of dantes that was posted, i dont think you can find that in Iberia. Its a very italian southern european nose that can be found in greece and the middle east, though in the middle east it looks somehow different. My friend is from northern italy and he has that nose, and dantes himself was from tuscany, which is northern italy so it can be found there, but spanish and portuguese do not have this nose. Actually is the one difference that i see in spaniards when compared physically to the italians, that spaniards have quite small noses more similar to the rest of northern europeans i would say, but finer featured, where as italians and greeks have typical southern eurpean noses. Also i find alot of northern european noses to be a bit rounder especially in some slavic and germanic countries where as southern europeans and id say very west europeans have more pointy features.

 

[Angela]

I'm not totally in agreement. (You'll see my interests quite clearly. )

Spanish writers:

The greatest of all, Cervantes, has a very "Dante like" nose, I think:
http://www.famousauthors.org/famous-authors/miguel-de-cervantes.jpg

Garcilaso de la Vega:
http://omegastereo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Garcilaso-de-la-Vega.jpg

My other favorite, Federico Lorca, definitely does have a nose that's on the smallish side, but it's not very attractive.
https://www.poets.org/sites/default...mages/biographies/fglorca_0.jpg?itok=Y2eKIRSS

Perez-Rivera certainly has a large and rather drooping nose. In the more recent pictures that came up just now when I googled him he's certainly changed from when I remember him, but I actually think he's one of those fortunate people who has gotten better looking with age.
http://static.deia.com/images/2014/11/29/efe_20110908_105359_pa1285_1761_11.jpg

I very much recommend his novel "Club Dumas":
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7194.The_Club_Dumas

Luis Bunuel:
http://www.laculturaenpuebla.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Luis-Buñuel.jpg

Almodovar has a potato nose, so I won't include him.

Carlos Saura:
http://media2.ledevoir.com/images_galerie/35152_66163/carlos-saura.jpg

Rossy De Palma: Actress in Pedro Almodovar films
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2gQ91U0D3...3Z4/s1600/Rossy+de+Palma+La+Ley+del+Deseo.jpg

Paloma Picasso-fashion designer and daughter of Pablo Picasso
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/17...XCLXwkqXey0xCE+A4pTzsS7Oo7fra3cGqDyKwbgDi+Q==

Famous Chefs:
Jose Andres-
http://s.libertaddigital.com/fotos/noticias/jose-andres.jpg

Carme Ruscadella
http://diari.uib.es/digitalAssets/199/199444_img_024.jpg

Maybe Basques shouldn't count?

Karlos Arguinano-
http://www.sansebastiangastronomika.com/es/noticias/fotos/250x/karlos-arguinano-2.jpg

Eneko Atxa-I've always thought he's very fetching.
https://bilbao-bizkaia.slowfood.es/wp-content/uploads/slowfood_old/40/files/2011/02/ENEKO.jpg

They have what we usually think of as "French" noses, not that all French people have them, of course.
Anne Sophie Pic-
http://finedininglovers.cdn.crosscast-system.com/BlogPost/l_3118_anne.sophie.pic-1-.jpg

I could go on, because it was fun revisiting some of the people I admire, but you get the drift.

So, while I would say that "large" noses are perhaps not as frequent in Iberia as even in France, they're definitely there.

That said, I find some of the figures in Tomenable's chart a little exaggerated.


Oh, definitely not someone I admire, but one can hardly ignore him: Francisco Franco
http://historiaybiografias.com/archivos_varios3/franco1.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos...-the-nationalist-leader-and-picture-id3276483

 

[srdceleva]

yes your right, cervantes especially has a very Roman type nose and Rossy de palma looks almost north african to me but your right, the classic southern european nose does occur in iberia though i still think its much less than in Italy or greece. Almodovar has a potatoe nose...haha i actualy laughed out loud at that comment. Very nice interests btw

 

[srdceleva]

I feel like older europeans had much sharper and more dignified noses than most modern ones. Thomas more to me seemed to have a very strong dignified nose in my opinion.

 

[Angela]

I feel like older europeans had much sharper and more dignified noses than most modern ones. Thomas more to me seemed to have a very strong dignified nose in my opinion.
View attachment 7862

I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpT...cture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/gra...ar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image...1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile.

 

[LeBrok]

I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpT...cture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/gra...ar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image...1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile.

What is it in sense of our esthetics that we perceive rounded/potato like tip not very attractive? Am I mistaken or some people do find it "sexy"?
Any positive comment would make me feel better for sure. The older I get the more potato like nose I get, lol. I wish it was coming together with Einstein smarts.

 

[Angela]

What is it in sense of our esthetics that we perceive rounded/potato like tip not very attractive? Am I mistaken or some people do find it "sexy"?
Any positive comment would make me feel better for sure. The older I get the more potato like nose I get, lol. I wish it was coming together with Einstein smarts.

Ah, LeBrok, my impression is that with age everything starts to sag, even for those with excellent genes for youthful looks. It's most, most unfortunate. :sad-2: I think you get my drift, no need for vulgar pictures...:grin:

Hawk noses droop down until you think the tip is going to meet the chin, pointy noses become rapier like, bulbous or wide noses start to spread like...there is no other word for it, the dreaded "blob"!

What to do?There are exercises and weight training for the body, boring and hateful as that regimen is, but how could you exercise the nose?

I suppose, if it gets bad enough, one might consider plastic surgery? etrified:

Even Helen Mirren's nose has gotten a little blobby with age.

What with the nose and wrinkles I have no idea why hot young actors are so eager to try to kiss her.
The world is becoming more and more perverse with each passing day.

In terms of sexiness, the largest erogenous zone is in the brain. Smart is sexy as hell.

 

[srdceleva]

I agree. I think that's true even as recently as the Victorian Era and the preceding war years.

William Gladstone:
https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/50/950-004-8DD92665.jpg

Thomas Carlyle:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Thomas_Carlyle_1.jpg

Horatio Lord Nelson:
http://historysheroes.e2bn.org/phpT...cture/final_nelson6_final_thumbnail.jpg&w=345

The Duke of Wellington:
http://waterloo200.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/8.-1st-Duke-portrait-by-Phillips-1.jpg

The same applies to the greatest American statesmen:

Thomas Paine:
http://www.biographyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thomas_Paine2.jpg

George Washington-an ugly nose, but certainly imposing:
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/47193_images.jpeg

Thomas Jefferson:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/gra...ar-forest-art-gh212c1a8-1thomas-jefferson.jpg

Abraham Lincoln:
http://a4.files.biography.com/image...1200,q_80,w_1200/MTIwNjA4NjMzODg2NTc0MDky.jpg

Maybe those old sayings that connect certain types of noses to a certain character weren't totally incorrect.

I've thought that perhaps as even previously isolated populations all admix there's some sort of leveling process and nose shapes get averaged out...

I've seen that happening in my old ancestral villages. It used to be that certain distinctive noses were pretty commonplace. Now, with "out-marriage", they're disappearing. The same thing has happened with "Greek" noses in Italy, at least as far as women are concerned.


"Potato" nose was perhaps a little off. Almodovar's nose is more like a blob nose. You know, sort of oozing out all over the face, like the creature in the aptly named "The Blob" oozed out into the street.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H37EZV2YL.jpg

Albert Einstein had it too. This picture always makes me smile.

haha the blob, well yes its not the most attractive nose, but hey the ugliest features can be beautiful if the person has a great personality. Ive known women who at first I didn't think were very attractive, but had something really special in their character and suddenly they looked amazing to me. I still hope my nose doesn't become the blob though .

Yes I feel like until very recently Europeans, or people of European descent had very strong sort of regale noses. All the people you cited are great examples of that, or maybe it was just the style of painting, but I don't think so. I really do think mixing between European countries has caused noses to some how become more neutral and even out, its not that they are bad looking now, just that some how noses in the past had more strength and character and now peoples noses are just kind of regular.

though Gerard Depardieu has a massive nose, maybe not considered attractive by all, I still think he was never a bad looking guy, quite the opposite, and that hes quite a likable looking guy.

 

[Angela]

To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.

Hers has held up pretty well.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

 

[Angela]

To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.

Hers has held up pretty well.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

Now, Louis Jourdan had a little bit of a blob thing going on, but what a difference...my mom was a big fan...so charming and debonair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwqW3Kfe7Zc

 

[srdceleva]

To be clear, we have our share of "blob" noses in Italy. I notice a lot of them further into Toscana, for some reason, usually in women, even though you can also find very bony and prominent noses, usually on men for some reason. I'm not the first to notice a certain dysmorphia in Tuscany.

This is Nada, a Tuscan singer from Livorno, just down the coast from me.

Hers has held up pretty well.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Depardieu. You may have found his most attractive picture, btw!. I find him very unappealing, and certainly not because of his nose; it's his weight, and the fact that he always looks like an unmade bed. Those and maybe the fact that he usually plays such vulgar men.

Now, Louis Jourdan had a little bit of a blob thing going on, but what a difference...my mom was a big fan...so charming and debonair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwqW3Kfe7Zc

haha well I don't think Nada has much of a blob nose, quite a nice attractive nose I would say, and yes its held up pretty well . Luis Jourdan also has quite a nice nose to me as well and is just generally a pretty handsom guy so I think there is a big difference between him and Einstein when it comes to noses . I think my noses is kind of blobby but it fits my face, ill see how it holds up through the years

Also, well yes I think now especially Gerard Depardieu is unattractive because he leads such an unhealthy lifestyle and is terribly over weight, but I think when he was young that he wasn't a bad looking guy. Also yes he can be quite controversial but I think hes an excellent actor, I mean I really like green card, and Cyrano de Bergerac



Also grace Kelly looks beautiful in that movie, the style was amazing back in those days, id love to play in a movie like that

 

[Angela]

haha well I don't think Nada has much of a blob nose, quite a nice attractive nose I would say, and yes its held up pretty well . Luis Jourdan also has quite a nice nose to me as well and is just generally a pretty handsom guy so I think there is a big difference between him and Einstein when it comes to noses . I think my noses is kind of blobby but it fits my face, ill see how it holds up through the years

Also, well yes I think now especially Gerard Depardieu is unattractive because he leads such an unhealthy lifestyle and is terribly over weight, but I think when he was young that he wasn't a bad looking guy. Also yes he can be quite controversial but I think hes an excellent actor, I mean I really like green card, and Cyrano de Bergerac

View attachment 7872

Also grace Kelly looks beautiful in that movie, the style was amazing back in those days, id love to play in a movie like that

Grace Kelly was exquisite in her youth: what princesses should look like but so seldom do. I think she was more beautiful here even than in "The Philadelphia Story" and "To Catch a Thief". Of course, for me it was hard to tear my eyes off Louis Jourdan. I think they still haven't released "The Swan" on dvd or on netflix etc.

For me, there's nothing like those old, classic movies. I was born at the wrong time.

You're right about Depardieu. I'd forgotten how nice looking he was in "Green Card". It's a pity he's let himself go like this. He is indeed a very good actor, most recently in the television series. "Marseilles".

 

[SergioSergius]

I think the Serbian King Peter I Karageorgevich had a typical Balkan-Dinaric kind of face (including nose).



Other example. Voivoda Živojin Mišić (personally I have a similar nose structure).

 

[Bollox79]

Got a question for you anthro types (that know a lot more than I do... I am just fairly familiar my Y-DNA group U106 and sub groups and research regarding that and known a good deal about my autosomal etc.)... I have always noticed I have a big, ole nose! I do get A LOT of autsomal matches from Irish and Scots Gaelic though - but also have Northern German/Baltic ones and a few Russian 5th cousins from Pennsylvania. I have a good idea where all my autosomal matches come from and also my maternal and paternal lines. I match a couple really old skeletons on my Y-DNA from Driffield Terrace in Northern England in a Roman era cemetery (skeletons 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 - 6drif-3 is the closer match of the two) . What do you anthro people think? Also how can I tell the shape of my skull? It's narrow in the front (around the temples) but wider in the back than other people's heads! I have a rather large head for my height etc. Also I have shorter legs on average and longer torso, but am not particularly tall or short - about 5'10"ish and a fairly heavy build (thanks to lifting weights and/or doing labor jobs)! Thank in advance for any info/help you can give me! I look a good bit like my father, but also take after my Mother's side which is mainly Irish from New York and Scots Highlander from Ontario... at least more recently! I also get the flushed/reddish skin around my nose facial area that is genetic I think and is from populations that come from colder climates - as I get dry skin most of the year around... it certainly genetic! It must be from the Irish side, but both sides have Irish (Scots Irish would be the best description of that). Hope is ok I post in this thread! Also an addition one of me looking pretty pale with a beard . Not much sun in Pennsylvania during the winter!

Cheers!

 

[Bollox79]

I guess my next question would be can we really tease out phenotypes? I see Americans (like me) being a bit wonky or throwing the mold/average a bit because even if we are mostly from one or very close areas DNA wise (in my case Ireland and Scotland for the most part)... we can have a strange mixture (such as I having 3rd-5th cousins from all over Scotland and Ireland, but only a few 5th cousins from the Baltic and NE Europe per my father's mother's mother's father's family who were probably Prussian and Volga Germans, but from Bohemia over the border in the Czech Rep for a generation or two - that is where I think I get that bit of Russian DNA !). The gedmatch calculators tend to either give me a lot of Dutch/German/Scandinavian or mixed mode 90ish% British Isles and about 10%ish some Russian horse tribe haha! I don't take it all that seriously, but it's fun to see if there are patterns!