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Thread: Recognizing ethnicity by the nose.

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    This is George Washington's Life mask, it is the most accurate depiction of his face. It was a plaster cast made during his lifetime:





    Looks like a Roman nose to me.

    https://www.themorgan.org/collection/George-Washington-Life-Mask
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This is George Washington's Life mask, it is the most accurate depiction of his face. It was a plaster cast made during his lifetime:





    Looks like a Roman nose to me.

    https://www.themorgan.org/collection/George-Washington-Life-Mask
    To me too. :)

    In his lifetime it was called a “noble” nose.

    I think I posted a picture of Thomas Payne above. His nose is just like that of Scipio Africanus.

    John Adams’ nose is so curved it almost looks Semitic.

    It must be CHG and steppe related in them. That and maybe the French influence.

    It’s always struck me how often leaders in Western Europe had such prominent noses. It used to be said such noses indicated strength of personality and will. I highly doubt that’s true but I can believe that people thought that and consciously or subconsciously chose their leaders in part because of that.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Courtesy of kingjohn from the Napoleon I thread. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...117#post610117


    https://vintagenewsdaily.com/death-m...eon-bonaparte/

    These type of noses sure pop up a lot from classical times to modern times in "nobility".



    From paintings:

    As a young Corsican Lieutenant


    Napoleon crowned King of Italy.


    During the famous and controversial coronation where he took the crown from the Pope and crowned himself.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Courtesy of kingjohn from the Napoleon I thread. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...117#post610117


    https://vintagenewsdaily.com/death-m...eon-bonaparte/

    These type of noses sure pop up a lot from classical times to modern times in "nobility".



    From paintings:

    As a young Corsican Lieutenant


    Napoleon crowned King of Italy.


    During the famous and controversial coronation where he took the crown from the Pope and crowned himself.
    It’s what I call the “Flora” nose from the Greek statue of the goddess Flora but with the addition of the Roman “bump”.

    The “Flora” nose is ubiquitous from Toscana through Umbria, Marche, Eastern Liguria and Emilia Romagna. There’s a whole monograph written about this look in women of the area when discussing DaVinci’s Lady with the Ermine, who was a Tuscan. At the height of the Lega Nord drama they posted copies of this portrait with a caption saying: This is what Italians look like....

    They probably thought she was Milanese since that’s where it was painted. :)

    I can’t post pictures; perhaps someone else can do it. You can also look at my threads: Phenotypes of Italian villages and People of the Appennino Parmense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It’s what I call the “Flora” nose from the Greek statue of the goddess Flora but with the addition of the Roman “bump”.

    The “Flora” nose is ubiquitous from Toscana through Umbria, Marche, Eastern Liguria and Emilia Romagna. There’s a whole monograph written about this look in women of the area when discussing DaVinci’s Lady with the Ermine, who was a Tuscan. At the height of the Lega Nord drama they posted copies of this portrait with a caption saying: This is what Italians look like....

    They probably thought she was Milanese since that’s where it was painted. :)

    I can’t post pictures; perhaps someone else can do it. You can also look at my threads: Phenotypes of Italian villages and People of the Appennino Parmense.
    I will oblige:


    DaVinci’s Lady with the Ermine


    Compare to Flora.




    I think why these prominent figures have a mix between the Roman bump and the Grecian nose is due to testosterone. Have no proof to back it up but intuitively that's what I think.

    From the picture of the most beautiful man according to ancient Greeks you can see that there is a certain bump, it is not a straight Grecian nose:

    "Antinous, the lover of Hadrian, was considered the most beautiful man of his time"



    Michelangelo's David





    Caesar



    Alexander



    Skanderbeg



    I think all these figures have a hybrid nose between Grecian and Roman, straight/concave in men with a bump, as I said my guess is testosterone in men makes the Flora nose have a bump.

    Even DaVinci had a similar nose aparently.



    Here is Micheangelo himself.


    Would love your guys opinion, weather testosterone can affect the bump on the nose, so as to create a hybrid between the Grecian nose and Roman nose in men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I will oblige:


    DaVinci’s Lady with the Ermine


    Compare to Flora.




    I think why these prominent figures have a mix between the Roman bump and the Grecian nose is due to testosterone. Have no proof to back it up but intuitively that's what I think.

    From the picture of the most beautiful man according to ancient Greeks you can see that there is a certain bump, it is not a straight Grecian nose:

    "Antinous, the lover of Hadrian, was considered the most beautiful man of his time"



    Michelangelo's David





    Caesar



    Alexander



    Skanderbeg



    I think all these figures have a hybrid nose between Grecian and Roman, straight/concave in men with a bump, as I said my guess is testosterone in men makes the Flora nose have a bump.

    Even DaVinci had a similar nose aparently.



    Here is Micheangelo himself.


    Would love your guys opinion, weather testosterone can affect the bump on the nose, so as to create a hybrid between the Grecian nose and Roman nose in men.
    Keep in mind that in the idealized nose of the Greek sculptors, whether in men or women, there’s no break or dip at all at the eyes. Look at Antinous: it’s a straight line from the forehead through the top of the nose. I’ve never seen that in realistic Roman busts of real people and rarely afterwards. It’s rarely seen anywhere, which leads me to wonder if it really existed in any great numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Keep in mind that in the idealized nose of the Greek sculptors, whether in men or women, there’s no break or dip at all at the eyes. Look at Antinous: it’s a straight line from the forehead through the top of the nose. I’ve never seen that in realistic Roman busts of real people and rarely afterwards. It’s rarely seen anywhere, which leads me to wonder if it really existed in any great numbers.
    I agree. To me it is more noticeable on the female statues, this case Flora, the straight line. Because I am pretty sure I have seen people having similar nose forehead line to Antinous. It is certainly idealized. But it is not like on his bust you can take a ruler and run it to the tip of his nose from the top of his forehead. While on the Flora statue I can see a ruler going from her forehead to the tip of the nose.

    But yeah I agree. Doubt it was ubiquitous.
    Just based on anecdotes I see a lot of similarity for example between the Ceasar nose and the Napoleon one. Even George Washington for that matter. Or for the matter any of the pictures I posted. It is like you synthesized the Roman bump with the thin, more often concave line in men of the Grecian nose.

    The fact that the bust of Antinous bares such similarity with death masks (in this case Washington, Napoleon) certainly is not a coincidence. Is it ubiquitous over such a huge geographical location, most certainly not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Keep in mind that in the idealized nose of the Greek sculptors, whether in men or women, there’s no break or dip at all at the eyes. Look at Antinous: it’s a straight line from the forehead through the top of the nose. I’ve never seen that in realistic Roman busts of real people and rarely afterwards. It’s rarely seen anywhere, which leads me to wonder if it really existed in any great numbers.
    Look up the profile of Minerva but also of Apollo.

    It even appears as late as in The Statue of Liberty.

    I have no proof but my hunch is that it was an idealization and an artistic convention.

    There are women who have that Roman bump although I don’t, nor did my mother. Just look up pictures of Meryl Streep in profile, though.

    There are men who don’t have it either like Gabriele Garko.

    When I speak about the Flora nose being common in certain areas of Italy I mean the Modified Flora nose, with a slight indent at the eyes, and then long and straight.

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    in case someone was wondering here is the nose from before


    it's Pascal Couchepin former swiss Bundesrat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in case someone was wondering here is the nose from before


    it's Pascal Couchepin former swiss Bundesrat.
    Well he would definitely have fooled me. Just goes to show you can’t tell the ethnicity of a person from a nose although you may be able to tell the general part of the world where the nose originated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in case someone was wondering here is the nose from before


    it's Pascal Couchepin former swiss Bundesrat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is that a politician? Don't know why I get that feeling. LOL
    So do I get any points?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well he would definitely have fooled me. Just goes to show you can’t tell the ethnicity of a person from a nose although you may be able to tell the general part of the world where the nose originated.
    Might not be able to tell ethnicity... but my spider senses/intuition sure got the profession right.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Norwegian author Sven Moren:



    He is from Trysil, Norway. I am not sure how to determine it.

    Another author from the same town, Einar Skjæraasen, whose nose is much different.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Norwegian author Sven Moren:



    He is from Trysil, Norway. I am not sure how to determine it.

    Another author from the same town, Einar Skjæraasen, whose nose is much different.



    First one reminds me of Tesla, second one of Camus.

    Anyone wants to take a guess at this individuals nose?




    Lets see if anybody gets it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Norwegian author Sven Moren:



    He is from Trysil, Norway. I am not sure how to determine it.

    Another author from the same town, Einar Skjæraasen, whose nose is much different.



    ArchetypeOne wrote that he looks quite like Tesla...definitely. He looks also a lot like my father and has some features that my family from his side has. They come from an area in Croatia maybe some 100 km north from Tesla's birthplace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    First one reminds me of Tesla, second one of Camus.
    Anyone wants to take a guess at this individuals nose?


    Lets see if anybody gets it right.
    That looks like Hitler's nose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    That looks like Hitler's nose.
    Indeed. Well done .


    Edit: Forgot to post pictures the snipets are from.




    How would you classify it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Indeed. Well done .


    Edit: Forgot to post pictures the snipets are from.




    How would you classify it?
    Not too sure actually, in how to describe it. I knew it was him, because I recently looked up his picture to see what kind of nose he had.

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    Great Roman bump on Sven Moren’s nose I think; attractive man.

    What an ugly profile Hitler had. Nothing wrong with the nose itself; my dad had a jutting wedge shaped nose like that too. It’s that it slants upward at the bottom and the forehead is so ugly.

    Take it back a little. It looks level in the second picture

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    In the first half of the twentieth century people swooned over the profile of the great actor John Barrymore; one of the closest imo to the classic Greek noses of ancient statuary.

    He was so proud of it that practically every picture is of his profile

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    I take it back. I didn't remember Barrymore's nose correctly. There's a definite dip at the eyes. Still a beautiful nose and beautiful profile.





    Another gorgeous, classic profile: Elvis Presley. In some pictures it almost looks perfectly Grecian, but in others you can see the slight dip.




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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Paul Newman and Apollo, nuff said:


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    Gabriele D'Annunzio, the famous Italian poet, former-dictator of Fiume (today Rijeka, Croatia), and man who invented fascism, had a Roman nose.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    You really can't tell ethnicity by the nose.

    This is Neville Chamberlain. The nose looks Semitic to me, yet he was a proper English upper class gentlemen.





    Ironically, Oswald Mosley, head of the English fascist party also had that type of nose. Whatever did Hitler think of it? :)


    Mussolini's nose was much more like Hitler's. The ironies and absurdities of "racial typology".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You really can't tell ethnicity by the nose.

    This is Neville Chamberlain. The nose looks Semitic to me, yet he was a proper English upper class gentlemen.





    Ironically, Oswald Mosley, head of the English fascist party also had that type of nose. Whatever did Hitler think of it? :)


    Mussolini's nose was much more like Hitler's. The ironies and absurdities of "racial typology".


    You are correct here is my uncle( brother of my father)

    Roman nose( bump than straight)
    https://i.imgur.com/MpqXXDC.jpg
    known ancestery:
    sefhardi / aschenazi/ mizrahi / bulgarian
    direct paternal line back to damascus
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + Serbian + Tuscan @ 1.234402

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You really can't tell ethnicity by the nose.



    Mussolini's nose was much more like Hitler's. The ironies and absurdities of "racial typology".

    I disagree for a part.
    common stereotypes are not scientific types which themselves cannot be confused with true well achieved "races", even if the concept of "race" could be discussed even for animals.
    In my conception types are tries to construct an ideal phenotype which could correspond to some elementary subpopulation in a global mixed one, subpopulation supposed to have lived independantly some times before to took part in the mix, and whose the input could be weighted more or less precisely. It's a risky sport but not without interest. It is based upon states, but not global states concerning a whole pop, where the means don't give too much clues sometimes concerning the making of the mix; that said it requires some other pops less mixed where a type dominates more so that the global mean is closer to the type means. I avow the results are often disappointing, and the "scientists" who competed on the field in past have been more often rather bad! But the metrics method of comparing global means of measures without a bit of typology can confuse us very well and pass over precious details, among them the features rarely accutely reflected by the battery of measures taken.
    the nose, as the mouth, more than the mouth, mirrors the mixings very well, so it's very rare to have a "pure type" nose (the more numerous the alleles in cause, the less unity in the pop). That said, among 'europoids' there are some clear tendancies, even if never completely homogenous.
    That said, in this thread, we are doing cherry picking, even the ones who are opposed to it as a rule. Chamberlain and others may not be taken as model for their population. And I think there is not everytime ONE gene for say "convex" nose, or "concave" nose or "winding" nose or "beaky nose" or any other case, to take only one aspect. some convex nose can be the homozygotic result of an allele, other convex noses can be the result of an heterozygotic association; sure they are not exactly the same noses, but they will be classified generally as "convex noses". But in nose we have the bones association, the cartilages one, the flesh one, without to speak of the connexion glabella/superior nose bridge.
    Some crossings of basic types can produce at the idividual level close enough results spite they are not formed by the very same basic types.
    &: this plurifactors construction of the nose makes that every pop shows diverse variants of features, even brothers and sisters what doesn't exclude that some forms prevail in certain pops.

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