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Thread: New Leak: CWC=73% Yamna, modern North Euros=50% Yamna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    You seem to have totally missed the point of everything I said. Someone could have a mixture of WHG, EEF and ANE that appears to be consistent with 50% Yamnaya without in fact being 50% Yamnaya. There are lots of ways that could happen, especially if we don't know the whole story of ANE and northern Europe.

    It definitely seems that Yamnaya DNA isn't distinct enough to say "this particular set of European DNA is 50% Yamnaya".
    Yes, but we know what type of ancestry was in pre-Bronze age west Europe; ENF and WHG. So ENF/WHG+X=Euros. That fits best as Yamna. Maybe when the paper comes out you'll be connived.

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    Why are people still using ENF as a category? ENF are a "hybrid" population of near eastern farmers and SE hunter gatherers. There is already data out there that has separated the two different components of ENF.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I did look at those links. Inaccurate assumptions in, false verification of inaccurate assumptions out.
    Acting like a critical snob, who doesn't believe anything is not how you win an argument. My "inaccurate assumptions" from weeks ago is what the academics with real genomes are saying today. You have no evidence just doubt and a horrible attitude. I can't believe you're British and German, because you have the attitude of a snobby-ass Frenchman. The shallow, dark, and inmoral way people like you see the world is sad.

    Decades from now when this is in the history books, you'll look back and wished you listened more to what I'm saying.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Yes, but we know what type of ancestry was in pre-Bronze age west Europe; ENF and WHG. So ENF/WHG+X=Euros. That fits best as Yamna. Maybe when the paper comes out you'll be connived.
    It was ENF + UHG
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    thank you for French people, Ô! Fire Haired - the ever doubting attitude is well known too among British people (less among Americans, I suppose) - all the way these puttings people of a country all in the same bag is risked I think - I believe as you Yamna horizon people have had some imput in some part of Europe but the absolute proofs will came someday, they are not already here - these general autosomes subdivisions are not sufficiant even if very interesting - well defined lignages are required to confirm it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Why are people still using ENF as a category? ENF are a "hybrid" population of near eastern farmers and SE hunter gatherers. There is already data out there that has separated the two different components of ENF.
    ENF does not mean what you think it means. And we were actually using EEF (early European farmers as a category - it's a mixture of hunter gatherers and ENF (early Near Eastern farmers). But there is no sample of ENF that I know of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Yes, but we know what type of ancestry was in pre-Bronze age west Europe; ENF and WHG. So ENF/WHG+X=Euros. That fits best as Yamna. Maybe when the paper comes out you'll be connived.
    No, I won't be "connived" or convinced unless the paper can produce detailed subclade information proving that certain modern DNA lineages could only have come from Yamnaya. What you have to understand is that Yamnaya isn't a genetically unique group - they seem to have been a mixture of EEF, WHG and ANE. But Neolithic Europe was already a mixture of EEF and WHG. And I'm not convinced that all ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya because ANE levels in northern Europe seem to be partly dependent on levels of WHG.

    Please learn the difference between EEF and ENF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    thank you for French people, Ô! Fire Haired - the ever doubting attitude is well known too among British people (less among Americans, I suppose) - all the way these puttings people of a country all in the same bag is risked I think - I believe as you Yamna horizon people have had some imput in some part of Europe but the absolute proofs will came someday, they are not already here - these general autosomes subdivisions are not sufficiant even if very interesting - well defined lignages are required to confirm it
    I knew I could count on a Frenchman to be the voice of reason and logic. LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Acting like a critical snob, who doesn't believe anything is not how you win an argument. My "inaccurate assumptions" from weeks ago is what the academics with real genomes are saying today. You have no evidence just doubt and a horrible attitude. I can't believe you're British and German, because you have the attitude of a snobby-ass Frenchman. The shallow, dark, and inmoral way people like you see the world is sad.

    Decades from now when this is in the history books, you'll look back and wished you listened more to what I'm saying.
    Given that I'm finding this conversation amusing and you seem to be getting upset about it, maybe you should ask yourself which one of us has a problem.

    Perhaps I could have stated the issue a trifle more diplomatically but the reality is this - if you perform a calculation based on a flawed premise, the results will be flawed.

    And, FYI, real English people are often far snobbier and far more sarcastic than I'll ever be, so perhaps you should avoid England.
    Last edited by Aberdeen; 31-01-15 at 23:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    ENF does not mean what you think it means. And we were actually using EEF (early European farmers as a category - it's a mixture of hunter gatherers and ENF (early Near Eastern farmers). But there is no sample of ENF that I know of.
    Ah okay, I got ENF and EEF confused. The sample for ENF is Stuttgart I think. Haven't really been keeping up with these new autosomal categories as of late. What is the sample population for EEF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Ah okay, I got ENF and EEF confused. The sample for ENF is Stuttgart I think. Haven't really been keeping up with these new autosomal categories as of late. What is the sample population for EEF?
    Actually, Stuttgart had a small amount of hunter gatherer ancestry. You can read about Europe being a mixture of three groups (WHG, EEF and ANE) here, although a lot of people think the reality is a bit more complicated than that.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No, I won't be "connived" or convinced unless the paper can produce detailed subclade information proving that certain modern DNA lineages could only have come from Yamnaya. What you have to understand is that Yamnaya isn't a genetically unique group - they seem to have been a mixture of EEF, WHG and ANE. But Neolithic Europe was already a mixture of EEF and WHG. And I'm not convinced that all ANE in Europe comes from Yamnaya because ANE levels in northern Europe seem to be partly dependent on levels of WHG.

    Please learn the difference between EEF and ENF.
    No one ever said Yamna-type ancestry in Europe is from Yamna. It is statistically impossible for Mesolithic HGs like Motala12 and anyone in west Asia to have given Europeans any substantial ANE. The next place to look is east Europe, and ~5k ones fit very nicely as the main source. No one besides Yamna or a close relative could have done this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Given that I'm finding this conversation amusing and you seem to be getting upset about it, maybe you should ask yourself which one of us has a problem.

    Perhaps I could have stated the issue a trifle more diplomatically but the reality is this - if you perform a calculation based on a flawed premise, the results will be flawed.

    And, FYI, real English people are often far snobbier and far more sarcastic than I'll ever be, so perhaps you should avoid England.
    The calculation wasn't far off because I came to the same conclusion as Reich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    No one ever said Yamna-type ancestry in Europe is from Yamna. It is statistically impossible for Mesolithic HGs like Motala12 and anyone in west Asia to have given Europeans any substantial ANE. The next place to look is east Europe, and ~5k ones fit very nicely as the main source. No one besides Yamna or a close relative could have done this.
    What do you think about Finnic people bringing ANE to the baltic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    What do you think about Finnic people bringing ANE to the baltic?
    They probably brought alot. Finno-Urgics come from the same area as Yamna, so they could have been similar genetically.

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    Finno-Ugric people were and are Mongoloid, while Yamnaya people were a mix of Mongoloid race and folks from the Maykop Horizon (Caucasus) and Iranian Plateau (South Caspian Sea). Remember that Yamnaya people were Indo-Europized by folks from the Maykop / Leyla-Tepe before some of them migrated into Europe...

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    Yamnaya folks were NOT early, but rather LATE proto-Indo-Eauropeans that gave birth to most Indo-European languages inside Europe, while EARLY or very first proto-Indo-Europeans gave birth to Greco-?Anatolian, Tochtarian, Iranian (Aryan) and Indic languages. Those first proto-Indo-Eruopeans came from an area between Maykop and Leyla-Tepe...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Ah okay, I got ENF and EEF confused. The sample for ENF is Stuttgart I think. Haven't really been keeping up with these new autosomal categories as of late. What is the sample population for EEF?
    ENF = early neolithic farmer
    UHG = unknown hunter gather
    ANE

    go to gedmatch and under eurogenes ANE 7 ....there is documentation as well

    these represent you most ancient numbers,

    AFTER this comes your mutation into
    EEF
    WHG
    ANE

    so, I went from 50% UHG to 20% WHG
    from 36% ENF to 69% EEF
    from 11% ANE to 10.5% ANE

    so as explaine dto me, ENF, UHG etc is older than EEF and WHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yamnaya folks were NOT early, but rather LATE proto-Indo-Eauropeans that gave birth to most Indo-European languages inside Europe, while EARLY or very first proto-Indo-Europeans gave birth to Greco-?Anatolian, Tochtarian, Iranian (Aryan) and Indic languages. Those first proto-Indo-Eruopeans came from an area between Maykop and Leyla-Tepe...
    That could be, and none of us know for sure were PIE came from and were all historical IE languages spread from(Caucasus, steppe?).

    Indo Iranian languages though are connected to Yamna. Don't take this personally, and no one is being Eurocentric about IEs. North Europe being less densely populated and having less complex societies(IEs in Asia could have simply become the upper-class and overtime blended in with locals) before Indo Europeans could be why Indo Europeans were most successful in spreading their genes there than Indo Iranians were in Asia. Sycthians were Indo Iranian and we have their mtDNA, which was very similar to Yamna. There's really no way around that, Indo Iranians have a similar steppe origin as IE languages in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    That could be, and none of us know for sure were PIE came from and were all historical IE languages spread from(Caucasus, steppe?).

    Indo Iranian languages though are connected to Yamna. Don't take this personally, and no one is being Eurocentric about IEs. North Europe being less densely populated and having less complex societies(IEs in Asia could have simply become the upper-class and overtime blended in with locals) before Indo Europeans could be why Indo Europeans were most successful in spreading their genes there than Indo Iranians were in Asia. Sycthians were Indo Iranian and we have their mtDNA, which was very similar to Yamna. There's really no way around that, Indo Iranians have a similar steppe origin as IE languages in Europe.
    Of course there's a link between Yamnaya on one side and Greco-Anatolian, Tochtarian, Iraninic and Indic languages on other side. Because, proto-Indo-Europeans that gave birth to Iranic, Indic, Tochtarian etc. migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon LATER. And no, Scythians were very late EAST Iranic (Iranized) tribes that migrated from Central Asia into the Steppes and mixed with the locals. Some other ancient original Iranic tribes (and their ancestors) never lived around Yamnaya Horizon in their existence. I mean Iranian tribes like the Mitanni & Kassites, Medes, Sagartians, Persians, Bactrians, Sogdians, Parthians, Kambojas, Drangiana, Dahaeans, Massageteans, etc. never had any connection (or direct links) with the Yamnaya Horizon...

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    Unlike Yamnaya Horizon people, ancient original Iranic tribes (from Leyla-Tepe) were neither Mongoloid nor WHG folks. Yamnaya had some WHG and were partly Mongoloid, while proto-Iranic folks lacked both of those components. Also ancient (proto-)Iranic languages had close ties with the Caucasian languages, and culturally/archeologically there were very much links with Near-Eastern (Mesopotamian) cultures...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    No one ever said Yamna-type ancestry in Europe is from Yamna. It is statistically impossible for Mesolithic HGs like Motala12 and anyone in west Asia to have given Europeans any substantial ANE. The next place to look is east Europe, and ~5k ones fit very nicely as the main source. No one besides Yamna or a close relative could have done this.
    Your thinking is far too simplistic. Nobody said that the apparent link between WHG and ANE comes from Mesolithic hunter gatherers like Motala 12. Modern Finns have the highest level of WHG in Europe but that doesn't make them all descendents of Motala.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    What do you think about Finnic people bringing ANE to the baltic?
    That seems to be a possible source of ANE in modern northern European populations that is other than Yamnaya. If you look at the Genetics section of this website, you'll find that Finns are not at all like Yamnaya and have very little of the Y haplotype R that was found in the remains that were used as a model for ANE. And yet there is a band of elevated ANE across northern Russia and into Finland. I think it may come from the mtDNA side, since the original model for ANE was mtDNA U and Finns have a lot of U5. But that can't be the full story because ANE is also elevated across other northern European countries that don't have DNA similar to Finns and probably have varying levels of Yamnaya ancestry. All we can say for certain is that claiming that modern northern Europeans have 50% Yamnaya ancestry on the basis of ANE is far too simplistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Unlike Yamnaya Horizon people, ancient original Iranic tribes (from Leyla-Tepe) were neither Mongoloid nor WHG folks. Yamnaya had some WHG and were partly Mongoloid, while proto-Iranic folks lacked both of those components. Also ancient (proto-)Iranic languages had close ties with the Caucasian languages, and culturally/archeologically there were very much links with Near-Eastern (Mesopotamian) cultures...
    Yamnaya were not partly Mongoloid. For this reason I don't believe we will see N in their y dna.

    The Yamna culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe is recorded for an enormous territory between the North-Western Pontic area and Trans-Uralia. Its sites are known here in the basin of the Emba and Tobol rivers, the Karaganda region and further eastward (Merpert 1974). The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90).


    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2006/05/...rded-ware.html

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    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Of course there's a link between Yamnaya on one side and Greco-Anatolian, Tochtarian, Iraninic and Indic languages on other side. Because, proto-Indo-Europeans that gave birth to Iranic, Indic, Tochtarian etc. migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon LATER. And no, Scythians were very late EAST Iranic (Iranized) tribes that migrated from Central Asia into the Steppes and mixed with the locals. Some other ancient original Iranic tribes (and their ancestors) never lived around Yamnaya Horizon in their existence. I mean Iranian tribes like the Mitanni & Kassites, Medes, Sagartians, Persians, Bactrians, Sogdians, Parthians, Kambojas, Drangiana, Dahaeans, Massageteans, etc. never had any connection (or direct links) with the Yamnaya Horizon...

    Goga, languages can be learned without heavy gene flow. Indo Iranian speakers don't have to have alot of Yamna ancestry to speak a language derived from Yamna.

    No one is trying to insult west Asians. Why can't you get this. Stop denying you think this, it's obvious. Try to think about this objectively.

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