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Thread: Origin and DNA of Turks

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    read post #38
    Nothing answering my question. I remember few posts earlier you were doubtful about existence of common IE language in the past, or even existence of IE family of languages. What do you think now after reading this article?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    What i can say is that you did not read my posts, therefore, you are not to be taken serious, you yourself cannot come with any logical argument, all you can do is to comment insults. The truth will not be ignored by disrespectful people that want to manipulate the truth because of the hate crime they are trying to provoke. I gave an example of modern researcher Muazzez İlmiye Çığ, her book is published in 2013, she has an experience of almost 80 years on Sumerian history, she is a respected internationally known Sumerolog. She herself said that the Sumerians are linguistically proven to be of Turkish origin, and that the Sumerians called theirselves Kenger, and that the word "Sumer" was used in later times. Kenger is a medieval name that is used by Turkish tribes from Central Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muazzez_İlmiye_Çığ
    As I suspected, the two writers live in Turkey and hard to consider them objective. I don't have time to read their works, so my point of view will be based on scientific consensus that Sumerian is a language isolate.

    Anyway it doesn't even matter if Sumerian was kind of Turkic language or not. There is no direct connection and ascendancy of Turks from Sumerians. Sumerians existed 4 thousand years before Turks showed up on a map. There is no known continuity between them both. On top of it we have direct written and archeological evidence about movement and conquest of Turks, who came from Central Asia.

    What do you think about this investigation done by your own countryman:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ghlight=turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Nothing answering my question. I remember few posts earlier you were doubtful about existence of common IE language in the past, or even existence of IE family of languages. What do you think now after reading this article?
    then you have problems in the interpreting and understanding. Its ridiculous to repeat myself, you text is there, if you are interested read or else not read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    PKK is a terrorist organization created by the US state that killed 30.000 of our people(including Kurds) since the 1980's, they can only cowardly wait and ambush people in the back. These are all truth i have written. So what youre doing is openly supporting an international terrorist organization, is this your way of finding the truth or discussing the truth by banning forum members because they tell the truth about internationally acknowledged terrorist people that dont hesitate to kill babies and innocent women and kill soldiers in the back? Now everyone who reads this topic, understand what kind of monster lies behind your mask. Even if you delete my messages, i am going to publish this discussion on my own forum, dont worry about that, people need to see this kind of non scientific terrorist supporters. The PKK could not defend the Aynel Arab village, and sought help of the Turkish soldiers whom they dont hesitate to kill in the back. Again, this situation shows that how noble the Turkish Army is, for defending the enemy if they ask for help. Yes, the US is using the PKK and like i said earlier, Saddam was also a puppet of the US, and the US intelligence CIA was the real owner of the massacre done on Kurds in 1988. Kurds need to understand this, you cannot trust the US, they are using you, and if they are finished with you or even think a bit they dont need you a bit, they will throw you away, i was trying to warn my Kurdish brothers not be a fool and stop being a slave and pion of the US CIA.
    And of course you must have your scientific proofs to support that. Keep up your hyper-nationalistic attitude and degrading other ethnicities and you will have just your blog to tell your "truths" to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    then you have problems in the interpreting and understanding. Its ridiculous to repeat myself, you text is there, if you are interested read or else not read it.
    I want your opinion not the cited text. Perhaps you should ask first ministry of turkish propaganda what to think about this new information. We already noticed that critical thinking wasn't your forte. However, you excelled in the mantra of recycled propaganda, the beacon of turkish nationalistic truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    As I suspected, the two writers live in Turkey and hard to consider them objective. I don't have time to read their works, so my point of view will be based on scientific consensus that Sumerian is a language isolate.

    Anyway it doesn't even matter if Sumerian was kind of Turkic language or not. There is no direct connection and ascendancy of Turks from Sumerians. Sumerians existed 4 thousand years before Turks showed up on a map. There is no known continuity between them both. On top of it we have direct written and archeological evidence about movement and conquest of Turks, who came from Central Asia.

    What do you think about this investigation done by your own countryman:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ghlight=turkey
    1. Sumerians lived from around 5500 and 4000 BC until around 2300 BC.

    2. We know that the Hitites are the descendents of the Sumerians/Kengers. Hitites lived from around 1600 BC until around 900 BC.

    3. Huns(200 BC) and Scythians lived from around 900 BC until today(modern Turks).

    4. Professor Hommel determines that the Sumerians migrated from Central Asia to Anatolian regions about 5000 BC. Read the text at the following link for detailed information: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2392

    Eski Önasya Tarihi uzmanlarından Fr. Hommel, Sümerler'i tamamıyla bir Türk kavmi olarak kabul etmekte, Orta Asya'dan M.Ö. 5000'lerde kopan Türk gruplarının Önasya'ya geldiklerini ve Sümerler'i teşkil ettiklerini ileri sürmektedir. Sümer dilinden 350 kelimeyi Türkçe ile açıklayan Fr. Hommel'in bu iddialı tezine karşı V. Christian ile Benno Landsberger daha ihtiyatlı davranmakta, Sümerce'de Türkçe ile birlikte diğer Ural-Altay kavimlerinin de dil hatıraları olduğunu kabul etmektedirler.
    5. All modern Eurasian cultures are derived from the Sumerian civilization. For example, why do you think the The double-headed eagle is used in the flags of the Huns, Romans, Germans, and other Eurasian ancient nations? Because they have their root all in the Sumerians. And the Sumerians spoke obviously a Turkish(or Hunnish or Scythian/Sakha, whatever you like to call it) language. So, Turks are the ancestors of all modern Eurasian nations! I advise you to also read the book of Gene D. Matlock called "What Strange Mystery Unites the Turkish Nations, India, Catholicism, and Mexico?: A Concise But Detailed History of Things Divine and Earthly"
    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...sm_and_Mexico_
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/28325924/G...ine-and#scribd
    http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Myster.../dp/0595394469

    And please read the text at this page: http://viewzone2.com/ancientturksx.html

    THE SUMERIANS WERE TURKS.

    Many people find it difficult to accept that even the Akkad or Sumerians were Turkish. The Akkads (Sumerians) were Phoenicians. known also as Kads, Khatti, etc., Originally, they were a Turkish (Kur, Tur, Tul, Tol, etc.) people from what our Bible calls Eden, the Akkadian word for the Steppes (Central Asia). Before the Great Flood, the Steppes or Eden was regarded as an earthly paradise. However, when the Great Flood inundated what are now the Altai, Tannu (Tiva, Teva, or Tuva), and Khakassia Turkish republics, the survivors had to build their civilization all over again. Many fled to what is now India, becoming Indians themselves, joining the eastern part of the Northern and southern hemisphere as a single nation.
    Gene D. Matlock, is also not Turkish and his book dates 2006.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I want your opinion not the cited text. Perhaps you should ask first ministry of turkish propaganda what to think about this new information. We already noticed that critical thinking wasn't your forte. However, you excelled in the mantra of recycled propaganda, the beacon of turkish nationalistic truth.
    My opinion is written in that post, and it is obvious that you are a CIA propagandist, and we know how the US killed more than 2 millions in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past 13 years(2003-2015). So, you keep on performing your CIA propaganda, i will keep on telling the truth!

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    1. Sumerians lived from around 5500 and 4000 BC until around 2300 BC.

    2. We know that the Hitites are the descendents of the Sumerians/Kengers. Hitites lived from around 1600 BC until around 900 BC.
    Garbage. Hittites were Indo-Europeans, Sumerians were not. In both cases we can read their scribbles and we know they were not talking the same language, not even close.

    3. Huns(200 BC) and Scythians lived from around 900 BC until today(modern Turks).
    Scythians were Indo-Europeans again, precisely East Iranian tribe. Hun's language is not attested, so we don't have a clue. Perhaps they were from Scythian confederation. Definitely moved from Central Asia into Europe. Later this term was used to describe Mongolians, either by Europeans or Chinese. The last time we hear about Scythians in records is at the end of Roman Empire and onset of Dark Ages.

    4. Professor Hommel determines that the Sumerians migrated from Central Asia to Anatolian regions about 5000 BC. Read the text at the following link for detailed information: http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2392
    It doesn't matter if they did or not. They didn't speak Indo-European language, therefore couldn't influence Hittite language. There is also a big temporal divide between them too.

    Sumerians spoke obviously a Turkish
    Whatever, lets say they did, it still doesn't prove direct connection to Sumerian. Why not Kipchak or Khazars, we know they spoke Turkic?

    [QUOTE](or Hunnish or Scythian/Sakha, whatever you like to call it) again Scythian language is IE. Turkic is not. I'm yet to hear about Scythians living in Anatolia.

    You are jumping through thousands of years, vast territory and many different cultures and languages as it is nothing. You grab snippets of whatever pleases you from every historical point and this give you a big picture of the great Turkish past. The worst part is your assurance in your arguments, not doubt, no hesitation. Dude, it doesn't work this way.

    So, Turks are the ancestors of all modern Eurasian nations!
    Again, hyper nationalistic propaganda and your emotions are blinding you.


    I advise you to also read the book
    I advise you to open your eyes.

    Turkic tribes before invading Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    My opinion is written in that post, and it is obvious that you are a CIA propagandist, and we know how the US killed more than 2 millions in Iraq and Afghanistan during the past 13 years(2003-2015). So, you keep on performing your CIA propaganda, i will keep on telling the truth!
    Sure, I've already informed CIA office in Holland to keep an eye on you. Take care.

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    You're CIA? What a coincidence I'm batman

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    Read the text at the following link: http://www.astroset.com/bireysel_gel...ncient/a31.htm





    You obviously have limited knowledge about Turkish history. The history of Turkmens starts during the time of the Selcukid(11th-13th centuries), and maybe a century earlier(10th century) during the Oghuz Yabgu state. The 4th and 5th centuries are about the Western Huns that migrated heavily into Western Eurasia. First read the texts written in the 5th century Roman diplomat about Western Huns, and then come discuss this subject with me.

    http://www.academia.edu/7733887/The_...and_the_Romans
    http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5190547.Priscus
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Fragmentar.../dp/1935228145



    I did not understand this comment, please explain what you mean.
    You know very little turk history.............there is less than 6% of turkic genetics in Turkey , the bulk are the indigenous people who where there ,came ftom pre -roman and roman times.

    Give me your genetic numbers and we will see if you REALLY are a turk.

    As usual, Turks have no history in Anatolia before the romans or during the romans, so, they start their history of the world from 5th century AD.
    The turks must think that when they arrived in Modern Turkey , the land was completly empty of people.
    Last edited by Sile; 04-02-15 at 19:02.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Garbage. Hittites were Indo-Europeans, Sumerians were not. In both cases we can read their scribbles and we know they were not talking the same language, not even close.
    Read this from: http://www.astroset.com/bireysel_gel...ncient/a31.htm

    However, the greater part of the Hittite vocabulary is of non-Indo-European origin (1). In Hittite the laryngeal (guttural) sounds originated from the Asiatic Proto-language. For example, the “kh” sound is found in many words and should be pronounced as “Okh”. The name Hittite was given to this language by modern scholars as being the official language of the Land of Hatti; but it should be pronounced asOkh-At-ili. Since the Hittite language was a monosyllabic language connected to the Proto-language and to all Altaic languages, one should split the words into its constituent phonemes. Okh means “arrow”, At means “horse”(2) and “il” means “The Land”, while “illi” means “from the land” or “belonging to the land”, therefore Okh-At-illior Okh-At-ly became Khattili => Hattili and finally Hittite. The suffix “-ly” is still existing in Turkish meaning “mixed together”, giving a further meaning to Okhatly “a mixture of Okh and At people”. It is most probable that “At” and “As” were names given to the same people originating from western Asia. We find “At” and the suffix “-illi” in the name of the Hun leader Atilla or Atilli.


    Without going into further detail we can conclude that the Hittite language forms a bridge between Altaic and western Indo-European languages. The original connection between Hittite and Sumerian can be traced back to the Proto-language of Asia from which Turkish is the closest descendent.
    It means that both Hitite and Sumerian languages are of Proto Turkish origin, and that the imaginery Indo-European languages did occur from the Turkish Sumerian and Hitite languages. It means that Indo-European culture has been created out of the Turkish Hitites who are the descendants of Turkish Sumerians.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Scythians were Indo-Europeans again, precisely East Iranian tribe. Hun's language is not attested, so we don't have a clue. Perhaps they were from Scythian confederation. Definitely moved from Central Asia into Europe. Later this term was used to describe Mongolians, either by Europeans or Chinese. The last time we hear about Scythians in records is at the end of Roman Empire and onset of Dark Ages.
    No, tell me something, why were the Huns called Scythians all the time in so many medieval Roman documents? Why does a Turkish scholar and lexicographer(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_al-Kashgari) from Xinjiang/Kashgar from the 11nd century write that Efrasiyab/Alp Er Tunga, the founder of Scythians/Sakha is of Turkish origin? Why are there so many cultural poems and songs among the Kazakhs and also other Central Asian Turkish tribes about the Scythian khan, considering him as an ancestor? Why is there in modern day Siberia a state called the Sakha Republic, and why do the Yakuts here speak a Turkish language? I think it is pretty clear now, that Scythians are of Turkish origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You are jumping through thousands of years, vast territory and many different cultures and languages as it is nothing. You grab snippets of whatever pleases you from every historical point and this give you a big picture of the great Turkish past. The worst part is your assurance in your arguments, not doubt, no hesitation. Dude, it doesn't work this way.
    Let me repeat, i know verty well you understand this, so keep a side the theatrical behavior and analyze this again:

    1. 5500 - 2300 BC: Sumerians
    2.
    1600 - 900 BC: Hitites
    3.
    900 - 200 BC - Nowadays: Huns and Scythians


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Turkic tribes before invading Anatolia.
    No, i advise you friendly to read the historical documents of Priscus. He is a 5th-century Roman diplomat and Greek historian and rhetorician (or sophist). He clearly writes about many Hunnish tribes leaving the Hunnish Empire of Attila, and joining the Byzantines and therefore settling into the Byzantine / Anatolian regions. Also many Hunnish diplomats settled in Anatolia in that era. Not to forget that Attila conquered all these areas. Even the root of Hagia Sophia has been made by Huns. If you are a man read this the text at this url: http://www.onaltiyildiz.com/haber.php?haber_id=3373

    Another example is that Priscus writes about the Tonosur(Juncars) Hunnish tribe that ran off in the 4th century to the Romans. Today in Central Anatolia there is a village/city with the exact names. Also during the battle of Manzikert, between the Selcukids and the Byzantines in the 11th century, the Byzantine army consisted mainly of Turkish soldiers of obviously Hunnish origin because they were already in Anatolia and Black Sea region before the Selcukids came.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Sure, I've already informed CIA office in Holland to keep an eye on you. Take care.
    You're CIA? What a coincidence I'm batman
    Is this a scientific and political discussion, or are you some kind of comedians? If you are clowns tell me about it, i will stop spending time writing the obvious truth and the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    You know very little turk history.............there is less than 6% of turkic genetics in Turkey , the bulk are the indigenous people who where there came ftom pre -roman and roman times.

    Give me your genetic numbers and we will see if you REALLY are a turk.

    As usual, Turks have no history in Anatolia before the romans or during the romans, so, they start their history of the world from 5th century AD.
    The turks must think that when they arrived in Modern Turkey , the last was completly empty of people.
    And you have a very low IQ because you are not able to seperate history and genetics, both very important and also very different scientific departments. Even a child of 6 years old knows that history is different than genetics. And you cannot defend your statements with sources, give me sources, give me facts, hate crime does not count as an argument during a discussion. Is there any ancient dna data supporting your hate crime comments? Again, like i wrote in previous posts, until end 2014 there was contamination, so in fact the ancient dna world is rebooting itself, and starts from zero. And based on which haplogroups do you base your percentages? You cannot give any answer to these, because you know that you are wrong! Give me your low IQ evidence data and i will proof youre wrong! TURKS FROM TURKIYE ARE 100% OF TURKISH ORIGIN!

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    One of the problems with a country inventing its own "facts" to teach to its citizens a hyper-national point of view is that this isolates its citizens, because they can't relate to people from other countries who have a better grasp of things such as history, archeology and genetics, so there will always be lots of misunderstandings. And countries that embrace ideas that are not real will gradually founder because their academics aren't equipped to deal with reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    One of the problems with a country inventing its own "facts" to teach to its citizens a hyper-national point of view is that this isolates its citizens, because they can't relate to people from other countries who have a better grasp of things such as history, archeology and genetics, so there will always be lots of misunderstandings. And countries that embrace ideas that are not real will gradually founder because their academics aren't equipped to deal with reality.
    Exactly, you are describing yourself. If you had something to say about the contents of my arguments, you would have replied to my messages one by one, and answer with the mentioning of proper sources that are defending your points. In stead, you and your fellas are trying to force the discussion into another direction, i must say in a friendly way that i find this quite pathetic and a sign of insufficiency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    And you have a very low IQ because you are not able to seperate history and genetics, both very important and also very different scientific departments. Even a child of 6 years old knows that history is different than genetics. And you cannot defend your statements with sources, give me sources, give me facts, hate crime does not count as an argument during a discussion. Is there any ancient dna data supporting your hate crime comments? Again, like i wrote in previous posts, until end 2014 there was contamination, so in fact the ancient dna world is rebooting itself, and starts from zero. And based on which haplogroups do you base your percentages? You cannot give any answer to these, because you know that you are wrong! Give me your low IQ evidence data and i will proof youre wrong! TURKS FROM TURKIYE ARE 100% OF TURKISH ORIGIN!
    Cinnioglu et al., (2004)[19] The majority of haplogroups are shared with their "West Asian" and "Caucasian' neighbours. By contrast, "Central Asian" Turkic haplogroups are rarer, 5.7% of Turkish people.

    Turkic gene flow from Central Asia to Anatolia has contributed to the current genetics of the Turkish people, and this is solely based on the first by Oghuz Turks, from the 11th century.


    I again repeat, do you think anatolia was empty of people when the turks arrived!

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    the latest paper

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963

    The demography of the region was later influenced by the movement of Turkic speaking populations beginning from 11th Century A.D., which occurred with disputed intensity and frequency, but with undoubtedly profound linguistic impact [7].


    11th century AD

    write to the scholars if you have an issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the latest paper

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/15/963

    The demography of the region was later influenced by the movement of Turkic speaking populations beginning from 11th Century A.D., which occurred with disputed intensity and frequency, but with undoubtedly profound linguistic impact [7].


    11th century AD

    write to the scholars if you have an issue
    I really dont understand your point, or what you are trying to prove. What do you want to proof? What is your point? Make quotations and write your point in an understable manner. Write it down like a man, this is not kindergarten draw contest, in which you can sketch a random drawing and hope people will like it.

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    Average Turk has a very strong facial hair.
    You are not seeing such a thing at Tatars,people from Kazahstan and other real Turkic people.
    So in my opinion,Turks have plenty of genetics from the people they assimilated and were on that land,with those people being mix of Kurdish people,Caucasian people and so on.
    Arguing with most people from Turkey about the fact that they have very few real Turkic genes is quite useless,usually.
    EDITT:
    I was talking here about the genes of the Turks people.
    From a cultural point of view,I think they are closest to Arabic and Persian people.
    And I think current day Turkey is good how it is,Kurds should stop with their independence movement and rather integrate into Turkish society.
    What I would like to see is that Turkey will give full freedom to Christian Orthodox religion.

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    I am quite happy to have conducted this semi discussion, in which i only gave the data, arguments and the facts, because this has shown the real faces of the users and admins on this forum and that they could not be trusted, and anything they write should been doubt. Actually every information can be read, but being analytical is always important, so my advice is not to trust this forum. In this topic you can obviously see that several users have insulted me, but i get being punished(infraction or whatever it is called...) for critisizing a terrorist organization and for answering a comment that is full with insults. But no worries, all comments have been stored, and can be found at http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12206. You can easily ban me, remove or alter the messages or whatever you want to do, this has been a quite perfect tutorial to show how far away your kind of people are from science and the truths, and that the Indo European / Indo Iranian theories are all arranged false fabrications, and that the Sumerian Turkish culture is the ancestor of all modern Eurasian cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Average Turk has a very strong facial hair.
    You are not seeing such a thing at Tatars,people from Kazahstan and other real Turkic people.
    So in my opinion,Turks have plenty of genetics from the people they assimilated and were on that land,with those people being mix of Kurdish people,Caucasian people and so on.
    Arguing with most people from Turkey about the fact that they have very few real Turkic genes is quite useless,usually.
    Quite useless comment, all the points i have answered in my previous posts.

  23. #73
    Regular Member
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    And what someone was said here,I also agree,you are not independent if you are a slave to US and their International Monetary Fund.
    This kind of "independence" do Kurds want to obtain,to become slaves at United States and have a huge amount of money to pay to IMF?
    L

  24. #74
    Regular Member Ike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isbara View Post
    I am quite happy to have conducted this semi discussion, in which i only gave the data, arguments and the facts, because this has shown the real faces of the users and admins on this forum and that they could not be trusted, and anything they write should been doubt. Actually every information can be read, but being analytical is always important, so my advice is not to trust this forum. In this topic you can obviously see that several users have insulted me, but i get being punished(infraction or whatever it is called...) for critisizing a terrorist organization and for answering a comment that is full with insults. But no worries, all comments have been stored, and can be found at http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12206. You can easily ban me, remove or alter the messages or whatever you want to do, this has been a quite perfect tutorial to show how far away your kind of people are from science and the truths, and that the Indo European / Indo Iranian theories are all arranged false fabrications, and that the Sumerian Turkish culture is the ancestor of all modern Eurasian cultures.
    Relax dude, you're probably not of Turkish origin, so there's no need for all this.

  25. #75
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    @Isabara:
    Lol go look at some pictures of people from Kazahstan ,I mean Kazakhs,not Russians,to see how real Turks are looking like.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhs

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