Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 63

Thread: What language group did Europeans speak in the Neolithic? Vasconic languages? Uralic?

  1. #1
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    What language group did Europeans speak in the Neolithic? Vasconic languages? Uralic?



    What was the original language group of Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans?

    Was it Vasconic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_languages

    Or even Uralic???:



    Many here would say that they spoke their own dialects, within each cultural site. For example; (Cardium Pottery; Kongemose Culture)


    However, I kind of doubt that this is true; considering all the cultures in Mesolithic Europe pretty much shared the same Y-DNA; around Europe. (I1, I2, G2a, E-V13, T.) etc. (which suggests that many of these migrant people assimilated; rather than slaughtered the indigenous people; like the Indo-Europeans did.)




    What is interesting about the Basque language; as well as Uralic languages, is that their words tend to lack genders. It seems that only Indo-European languages carry gender nouns; and that this is mainly an IE thing.


    It is very likely that there were many cultures who spoke different language groups- As suggested here before. But I am sure that there was an even bigger language group amongst these languages; that Europeans may have spoke, in the Mesolithic and Neolithic. Before the arrival of Indo-European dialects.


    The high frequency of Haplogroup T in Estonian people and Komis (Uralic speaking peoples) may suggest to me that Uralic may have been dominant in Neolithic Europe; a few centuries before Indo-European conquest/assimilation.

    It is also very possible that they spoke the extinct Tyrsenian languages:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages

    What is very interesting; is that Indo-European seems to be the only language group; where the majority of it's dialects have gender nouns. Whereas in Vasconic or Uralic languages; this is virtually none existent. And I am pretty sure Tyrsenian languages did not have genders in their languages either. It seems almost exclusively relative to Indo-European.

  2. #2
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    It would be interesting to discover that Neolithic Europe spoke a wide array of Uralic languages. Even though this language group seemingly originated around the Ural Mountains (Urheimat) in Russia. However; this is only a hypothesis and has not been confirmed true.

    It is possibly very unlikely; but if we found evidence; it would prove that there were Uralic languages in Europe long before Finnish and Hungarians migrated a few centuries after the Bronze Age. What is very interesting; is that many Uralic speakers; are of Neolithic origin on their Y-DNA paternal side; and their R1a and R1b seems to be only a recent contribution.

    I am speculating that most Europeans in the Mesolithic and Neolithic; probably spoke languages Vasconic or Tyrsenian languages. It would be very exciting to discover if Uralic was spoken in Europe; far longer than the Bronze Age and Indo-European conquests.

    Edit: I know I am jumping too far in my conclusions and speculations; but I have often wondered if the Tyrsenian language group (that held languages like Etruscan or Raetic) may have actually been relative to Uralic languages; or these two dialects may have been a form of Uralic dialects. (or vice versa)

    It may explain why lots of Italians tend to share haplogroup T (and other Mesolithic Y-DNA like G2a) at a high frequency; with Uralic speakers of Northeast Europe. Like the Estonians and Komis:

    Haplogroup-T.jpg

    Italy has very unusual high frequency of Mesolithic Y-DNA. (T, E-V13 and G2a) So do the Uralic speakers. (with N1c and T.)

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think that pre-Neolithic Europe spoke some language Isolate, not related to today's languages. Neolithic Europe spoke Afro-Asiatic, related to proto-proto-semitic. The East Europe and North West Asia could speak proto-Indo-European during Neolithic. I would imagine that Uralic language was spoken around Urals Mountains at that time.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,987
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,987, Level: 22
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 63
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Sweden


  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Do you know that for certain (that some of Neolithic Europe spoke Afro-Asiatic?)

    It would be very interesting to see if Mesolithic Italy spoke languages from language groups that were quite bizarre; like even something as strange or outlandish as Uralic.

    I am thinking the two biggest language groups of Mesolithic Europe were probably Vasconic (pre-Basque, Aquitanian etc) or Tyrsenian (pre-Etruscan, pre-Raetic etc)

    I am not sure where I heard this before; but I heard about 40% of the words in the Germanic language group are of non-Indo-European origin. That seems like a big estimate; not sure if it is true. I do know that the Germanic language does have words of non-IE origin.

  6. #6
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Yes!! Thanks for this. For some reason I have always thought the Tyrsenian and Uralic languages; may have had a similarity of some sort. Both of their origins seem quite mysterious; and evidently were spoken by Neolithic Europeans. Tyrsenian may have been a Western dialect of this broader language group; while Uralic may have been an Eastern dialect. The Western dialects (like Etruscan and Raetic) became extinct while the Eastern morphed into Uralic and then into Finno-Ugric. (But I am sure I am going too far right now, in my hypothesis.)

  7. #7
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,503
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,503, Level: 41
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 447
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    It will be nearly impossible to find out what Neolithic and Mesolithic Europeans spoke. The earliest form of symbols we find in Europe is in the Vinca culture and even those cannot determine a language as they are just symbols and shed no light on the phonetics of a language. If not mistaken there has also been some kind of Symbols in cave paintings but the same, they cannot determine anything about the language used.

  8. #8
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    The presence of apparently native terms for agriculture and metallurgy in Basque is a good argument for Vasconic being a metal-age introduction to Europe, as opposed to the early Neolithic, much less the Mesolithic. I'm not sure about Tyrsenian or any arguments about how early Uralic and Afro-Asiatic are in Europe, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone more well read on those.

  9. #9
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The presence of apparently native terms for agriculture and metallurgy in Basque is a good argument for Vasconic being a metal-age introduction to Europe, as opposed to the early Neolithic, much less the Mesolithic. I'm not sure about Tyrsenian or any arguments about how early Uralic and Afro-Asiatic are in Europe, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone more well read on those.
    But here is the issue: if Uralic languages were spoken in Europe; as far back as Central Europe or even further...then the Uralic language group obviously did not develop among the Uralic mountains, at all.

    The reason I found it suspicious; and suggested that Neolithic Europeans may have spoke Uralic; is that many Uralic speaking people have Neolithic
    DNA. It seems among Uralic speaking peoples; Bronze Age Y-DNA is often very small; and it is dominated by N1c. Sometimes T. The Udmurts also have a high proportion of haplogroup G at 1.5% frequency while the Maris have a frequency of 2%.

    Also; most Uralic speakers also carry Bronze Age Y-DNA at a very erratic frequency. It is almost exclusively R1a. Or smaller subclades of R1b. Yet no J1 or J2 seems to be prevalent. The R1a Y-DNA suggests that this is only a recent contribution; most likely brought to Uralic population from Indo-Europeans.

    Another interesting thing about the Mordovian people, a Uralic speaking peoples; is that they carry Y-DNA I1 at a 12% frequency; while supposedly developing nowhere near Nordic Europe; and all the way in Southern Russia. Only their (Nordic/Uralic speaking) Estonians and Finnish counterparts carry I1 at a higher frequency; in their Uralic population.

    If we take a look at the paternal DNA of the Magyar people; it is obvious that the modern Hungarians are not a Neolithic people. They also lack a high proportion of N1c in their Y-DNA; something that is almost exclusive to Uralic speakers ... which is quite interesting and may suggest that the original Hungarian men were killed by Indo-Europeans; while the Magyar mothers taught the Hungarian/Ugric tongue to their children; instead of the Indo-European one.

    My whole point being: is that Uralic seems to be a Neolithic language. While Indo-European was mainly Bronze Age. It is a wonder to me if many dialects of Uralic were spoken in Europe during the Neolithic; a few centuries before Indo-European invasion. It would partially explain why many Uralic cultures have very unusual Y-DNA patterns. Such as the unusually high frequency of Y-DNA I1 in the Mordovians; and the unusually high proportions of haplogroup T in Estonians.

  10. #10
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    arvistro's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-08-14
    Posts
    1,004
    Points
    13,128
    Level
    34
    Points: 13,128, Level: 34
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Latvia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This might be slightly on topic:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_European_hydronymy

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,987
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,987, Level: 22
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 63
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Sweden



    What about I2a1b ?

    More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/...-skoglund.html

    Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers
    StoraFörvar11 aka SfF11(Male), 7,500-7,250 cal. B.P, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U5a1

    6,873 ± 119 BC, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U4b1

    Motala1(Female), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a1

    Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

    Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

    Motala4(Female) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a2d

    Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

    Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

    Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

    Neolithic Swedish hunter gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture

    Ajv52A(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=V

    Ajv59(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U

    Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

    Ajv13(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv52b(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv66(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ajv54(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

    Ajv36(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

    Ajv5(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

    Ajv29a(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

    Fir15(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

    Fir22(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

    Fir4(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5

    Fir27(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5a

    Ire6b(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=T2b

    Ire9(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

    Ire3(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4



    Neolithic Swedish Farmers of the TRB culture, Frälsegården, Gokhem Sweden


    Gökhem4(Male), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H

    Gökhem2(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H1c

    Gökhem7(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H24

    Gökhem5(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=K1e

    Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=T2b

    Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=J

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...*-I2-and-I2a1b*

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Mario Alinei has also argued that Europeans are primarily descended from hunter gatherers who arrived in Europe during the Paleolithic Era and that Indo-European languages originated in Europe during the Paleolithic. One of the "authorities" cited by Alinei is Bryan Sykes, so I wouldn't take Alinei's ideas too seriously.

    The Finns are over 60% N1c, with the only other major Finnish Y haplotype being I1, a fairly recent subclade of I. The three most common haplotypes among Hungarians are R1a, R1b and I2a, with I2a having been present in Hungary since early days. But the Hungarians seem to be just about the only Uralic speaking people without significant amounts of N1c. I suspect they got their language from a predominantly R1a group that learned Uralic near the Urals before migrating west to conquer Hungary.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    156
    Points
    4,932
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,932, Level: 20
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    However, it seems that N1c was more frequent among the ancient Hungarians compared to modern Hungarians.
    (http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/fokozato...ol_CsanyiB.pdf)
    ”These data raise the question of whether the ancient Hungarians who settled in the Carpathian Basin at the end of the 9th century and spoke a Uralic language, possessed this polymorphism or not. To answer this question we attempted to screen for the Tat polymorphism in ancient DNA from skeletal remains from the (IX)-X th century. The 7 ancient samples were derived from 6 different well-documented archaeological excavations from the Carpathian Basi n, dating from the (IX)-X th century. The fact that two of seven ancient samples possessed the Tat C allele, is more than intriguing, considering that from the 197 modern Hungarian-speaking males only one had this polymorphism.

    Ancient Hungarians 2/7, c. 29%
    Modern Hungarians 1/197, c. 0.5%

    I think that the language was transmitted by only a small number of conquerors.

    In the recent paper ”Y‑SNP L1034: limited genetic link between Mansi and Hungarian‑speaking populations”, 2014, they detected a higher frequency of N1c in Seklers:
    ”Nevertheless, results proved that there is at least one Hungarian ethnic group, the Seklers with a non-negligible frequency of hg N-Tat (6.52 %) in Eastern Central Europe. Seklers (Hung.‘Székely’), one of the largest Hungarian-speaking populations in Transylvania with approximately 600,000 people, are settled mainly in Mures, Harghita, and Covasna counties in Central Romania. Seklers were considered the finest warriors of medieval Transylvania.”

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-01-14
    Posts
    156
    Points
    4,932
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,932, Level: 20
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    I5a

    Ethnic group
    Finnish
    Country: Finland



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think that, originally, the Volga Hungarians had a considerable amount of yDNA N, but during their trip from Volga to the Carpathian basin they mixed heavily with Oghur Turks who probably had a lot of R1a1.

    According to Wikipedia:
    ”The name of Hungary could be a result of regular sound changes of Ungrian/Ugrian, and the fact that the Eastern Slavs referred to Hungarians as Ǫgry/Ǫgrove (sg. Ǫgrinŭ) seemed to confirm that. Current literature favors the hypothesis that it comes from the name of the Turkic tribe Onogur (which means "ten arrows" or "ten tribes").

    The Onogurs (and Bulgars) later had a great influence on the language, especially between the 5th-9th centuries. This layer of Turkic loans is large and varied (e.g. szó ‘word’, from Turkic, daru ‘crane’, from the related Permic languages), and includes words borrowed from Oghur Turkic, e.g. borjú ‘calf’ (cf. Chuvash pǝ̂ru vs. Turkish buzağı), dél ‘noon; south’ (cf. Chuvash těl vs. Turkish dial. düš). Many words related to agriculture, to state administration or even to family relations have such backgrounds.”

    The Oghur, or Bulgar languages are a branch of the Turkic language family. It was historically spoken in the Hunnic Empire, Old Great Bulgaria (Magna Bulgaria/Onoguria), and later in Danube Bulgar Khanate (Danube Bulgaria) and Volga Bulgaria. Its only extant member is the Chuvash language. The modern Volga Ural Chuvash yDNA is the following:
    R1a 31.6%, N1c 17.7%, N1b 10.1%, I1 11.4%, R1b 3.8%, C 1.3%, Q 0%
    (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707618928)

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I think that the language was transmitted by only a small number of conquerors.”
    I also support that one.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I think that, originally, the Volga Hungarians had a considerable amount of yDNA N, but during their trip from Volga to the Carpathian basin they mixed heavily with Oghur Turks who probably had a lot of R1a1.

    According to Wikipedia:
    ”The name of Hungary could be a result of regular sound changes of Ungrian/Ugrian, and the fact that the Eastern Slavs referred to Hungarians as Ǫgry/Ǫgrove (sg. Ǫgrinŭ) seemed to confirm that. Current literature favors the hypothesis that it comes from the name of the Turkic tribe Onogur (which means "ten arrows" or "ten tribes").

    The Onogurs (and Bulgars) later had a great influence on the language, especially between the 5th-9th centuries. This layer of Turkic loans is large and varied (e.g. szó ‘word’, from Turkic, daru ‘crane’, from the related Permic languages), and includes words borrowed from Oghur Turkic, e.g. borjú ‘calf’ (cf. Chuvash pǝ̂ru vs. Turkish buzağı), dél ‘noon; south’ (cf. Chuvash těl vs. Turkish dial. düš). Many words related to agriculture, to state administration or even to family relations have such backgrounds.”

    The Oghur, or Bulgar languages are a branch of the Turkic language family. It was historically spoken in the Hunnic Empire, Old Great Bulgaria (Magna Bulgaria/Onoguria), and later in Danube Bulgar Khanate (Danube Bulgaria) and Volga Bulgaria. Its only extant member is the Chuvash language. The modern Volga Ural Chuvash yDNA is the following:
    R1a 31.6%, N1c 17.7%, N1b 10.1%, I1 11.4%, R1b 3.8%, C 1.3%, Q 0%
    (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707618928)
    I think it's quite possible that the people who introduced Hungarian to Hungary were people from the southern Urals who were predominantly R1a but ruled by an N1c elite that got thinned out by subsequent political events, including the Ottoman expansion into Hungary. And I think some of the Turkish loan words in Hungarian could be as recent as the Ottoman period, particularly those relating to state administration.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,987
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,987, Level: 22
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 63
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Sweden



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Lithuanians have 40% N1c1.Are they finno-ugric?!
    The theoriy N1c1 equal finno-ugric is a pseudoscientific absurdity.

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html

  18. #18
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    User with most referrers

    Join Date
    28-04-14
    Location
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Posts
    468
    Points
    5,044
    Level
    20
    Points: 5,044, Level: 20
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 6
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (S21) - Nordic
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H (H1) - Atlantid

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic (70% Cajun French - 30% English)
    Country: USA - Louisiana



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Lithuanians have 40% N1c1.Are they finno-ugric?!
    The theoriy N1c1 equal finno-ugric is a pseudoscientific absurdity.

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html
    They could have been originally Uralic speakers that were brought to an Indo-European dialect.

  19. #19
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    They could have been originally Uralic speakers that were brought to an Indo-European dialect.
    In this case we should be able to recognize Uralic language substratum, pronunciations, shifts, perhaps even complete words. I'm not a linguist, I can't answer it, but perhaps others are more familiar with Lithuanian and Latvian language structure.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-06-14
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland, Ireland
    Posts
    88
    Points
    4,481
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,481, Level: 19
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Ireland



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    They spoke many languages belonging to several different language groups each lined to a particular tribal group each linked to a certain male genetic group...Mixing of these tribal languages produced what we today call Indoeuropean languages...This is at least what I think...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Lithuanians have 40% N1c1.Are they finno-ugric?!
    The theoriy N1c1 equal finno-ugric is a pseudoscientific absurdity.

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html
    Lithuanians have almost as much R1a as N1c, so it could have been a situation where two groups mixed, with the members of one group being IE speakers and the members of the other group being Uralic speakers and by whatever chance of fate the IE speakers were able to impose their language. Estonians are also a fairly equal mixture of R1a and N1c but speak a Uralic language, so I guess in their case the Uralic faction became dominant for whatever reason.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-13
    Posts
    761
    Points
    5,987
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,987, Level: 22
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 63
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Sweden



    1.There is no evidnce that Ualic languages originated in W. Siberia.

    2.There is no evidence today that N1c1 brought Uralic languages to Europe.

    3. It has been proposed that the area where Proto-Finno-Ugric was spoken reached between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains.

    Abdeen:

    "Lithuanians have almost as much R1a as N1c..."

    Hugarians have aprox. the same amount of R1a but they are not slavic speaking.
    Last edited by gyms; 09-02-15 at 10:16.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-06-14
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland, Ireland
    Posts
    88
    Points
    4,481
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,481, Level: 19
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Ireland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    gyms, Hungarians were majority Slavic speaking until the 17th century when the forced Magiarization started. There are documents in which Magiar nobles are complaing that no one speaks Magiar language. There are actually no old documents written in Magiar, only in Slavic, German and Latin. Even the coronation cap of the St Stephen of Hungary has text embroidered in Church Slavonic. Why?

    Hungarians are not an example of how language and genes are not related. They are an example of how a powerful minority can force a language on a majority....Another example is forcing of the English language on the Irish...

    R1a population is directly linked to Indo Arian languages...

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-06-14
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland, Ireland
    Posts
    88
    Points
    4,481
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,481, Level: 19
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Ireland



    Here is the picture of the St Stephen's coronation cap. It is currently kept in Habsburg museum in Viena:

    451b.jpg

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-06-14
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland, Ireland
    Posts
    88
    Points
    4,481
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,481, Level: 19
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Ireland



    St Stephen's original name was Vojk, meaning Soldier in Slavic languages....Why would a Magiar king have Slavic name?

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •