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Thread: Professor Reich on Yamnaya and Population Turnover in Europe

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Professor Reich on Yamnaya and Population Turnover in Europe

    Jean Manco attended his speech at Oxford and is posting about it at Anthrogenica. I'm not comfortable just lifting her posts.

    You can find them at this thread. Kudos to Jean.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...8025#post68025


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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Jean Manco attended his speech at Oxford and is posting about it at Anthrogenica. I'm not comfortable just lifting her posts.

    You can find them at this thread. Kudos to Jean.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...8025#post68025
    Professor Reich maintains that the "Near Eastern" half of Yamnaya is not through Europe, and "could be from the Caucasus". So, is it most likely it came over the Caucasus (perhaps through the eastern corridor along the Caspian), or is there an alternate route? Is the ultimate source the highlands of Anatolia or northern Iran or both? Other questions are when, and was it a folk movement, just males, or just females in some way. Also, did it bring new subsistence strategies with it? How, given that the change in mtDna began in 4000 BC, does it relate to the later Maykop culture?

    Well, we also know that both R1a and R1b are connected with ANE.

    It's also interesting what massive figures they're giving for replacement:
    1. The first farmers, who represent 60% - 100% replacement.
    2. 2500 BC steppe pastoralists, who represent 60% - 80% replacement.
    In both cases there was a subsequent resurgence of previous ancestry.

    I would assume the 100% replacement is in some places in southern Europe. I hope that 60-80% replacement is only for northern Europe.

    As to the "resurgence" in WHG ancestry, Jean Manco says that, "The resurgence of WHG he had dated 5000-3000 BC in one slide. He said that it is not clear whether this reflects some population movement or greater mixing with local hunter-gatherers in the Late Neolithic than had happened in the Early Neolithic, which was possible in Northern Germany, as the hunter-gatherer lifestyle survived to the north in Scandinavia."

    I had speculated here that it might have been a result of a movement south of HGs from Scandinavia caused by climate change. Perhaps that accounts for the slight shift north in Gok type people that shows up in PCA's? There might have been other places that were inhospitalbe in terms of climate where they might have survived and mixed late. Perhaps there were also some marginalized hunter gatherers who had fled to refuges in the mountains who were incorporated as time went on?

    I don't understand the resurgence of the EEF (with some minor uptick in WHG) people, however. What were the dynamics, that the people in northern Europe go from 75% to 50% Yamnaya like?
    What refuges would they have had?

    Can we say that the Paschou et al paper pointing to one general source area for EEF in Europe is vindicated by this? "Early farmer samples are remarkably similar across Europe, whether from Cardial Ware or LBK. (I expect that includes his Hungarian samples, though not specifically mentioned.)"

    Also, maybe the hunter-gatherers in eastern Europe weren't very different from those in the West after all: "Mesolithic samples are similar across Europe. (He means those of which he has samples, which does not include Greece it seems.)" So, did the SHG die out?

    The ANE is higher in Scandinavia than in the Ukraine, so perhaps they didn't die out?
    Norway
    Lithuania
    Estonia
    Iceland
    Scotland
    Czech Rep.
    Belarus
    Hungary
    Ukraine
    England
    Croatia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Professor Reich maintains that the "Near Eastern" half of Yamnaya is not through Europe, and "could be from the Caucasus". So, is it most likely it came over the Caucasus (perhaps through the eastern corridor along the Caspian), or is there an alternate route? Is the ultimate source the highlands of Anatolia or northern Iran or both? Other questions are when, and was it a folk movement, just males, or just females in some way. Also, did it bring new subsistence strategies with it? How, given that the change in mtDna began in 4000 BC, does it relate to the later Maykop culture?
    Thank you very much for the link! According to her Professor Reich said that R1b in Europe came with the Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya. And R1b was not really native to Yamnaya. I'm sure that the 'Near Eastern' half in Yamnaya was brought into the Yamnaya by R1b, J2a and maybe even R1a (, oldest clades of R1a* are West Asian too,) folks from the Iranian Plateau. This is what I did always believe, that R1b was part of the Indo-Europeans that migrated into Europe. R1a is so OVERRATED, although I'm R1a* myself. But the most important info is that R1b in Europe was brought by Indo-European folks from Yamnaya! I LOVE science of genetics!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Professor Reich maintains that the "Near Eastern" half of Yamnaya is not through Europe, and "could be from the Caucasus". So, is it most likely it came over the Caucasus (perhaps through the eastern corridor along the Caspian), or is there an alternate route? Is the ultimate source the highlands of Anatolia or northern Iran or both? Other questions are when, and was it a folk movement, just males, or just females in some way. Also, did it bring new subsistence strategies with it? How, given that the change in mtDna began in 4000 BC, does it relate to the later Maykop culture?

    Well, we also know that both R1a and R1b are connected with ANE.

    It's also interesting what massive figures they're giving for replacement:
    1. The first farmers, who represent 60% - 100% replacement.
    2. 2500 BC steppe pastoralists, who represent 60% - 80% replacement.
    In both cases there was a subsequent resurgence of previous ancestry.

    I would assume the 100% replacement is in some places in southern Europe. I hope that 60-80% replacement is only for northern Europe.

    As to the "resurgence" in WHG ancestry, Jean Manco says that, "The resurgence of WHG he had dated 5000-3000 BC in one slide. He said that it is not clear whether this reflects some population movement or greater mixing with local hunter-gatherers in the Late Neolithic than had happened in the Early Neolithic, which was possible in Northern Germany, as the hunter-gatherer lifestyle survived to the north in Scandinavia."

    I had speculated here that it might have been a result of a movement south of HGs from Scandinavia caused by climate change. Perhaps that accounts for the slight shift north in Gok type people that shows up in PCA's? There might have been other places that were inhospitalbe in terms of climate where they might have survived and mixed late. Perhaps there were also some marginalized hunter gatherers who had fled to refuges in the mountains who were incorporated as time went on?

    I don't understand the resurgence of the EEF (with some minor uptick in WHG) people, however. What were the dynamics, that the people in northern Europe go from 75% to 50% Yamnaya like?
    What refuges would they have had?

    Can we say that the Paschou et al paper pointing to one general source area for EEF in Europe is vindicated by this? "Early farmer samples are remarkably similar across Europe, whether from Cardial Ware or LBK. (I expect that includes his Hungarian samples, though not specifically mentioned.)"

    Also, maybe the hunter-gatherers in eastern Europe weren't very different from those in the West after all: "Mesolithic samples are similar across Europe. (He means those of which he has samples, which does not include Greece it seems.)" So, did the SHG die out?

    The ANE is higher in Scandinavia than in the Ukraine, so perhaps they didn't die out?
    Norway
    Lithuania
    Estonia
    Iceland
    Scotland
    Czech Rep.
    Belarus
    Hungary
    Ukraine
    England
    Croatia
    Just guesses...

    On the farmer resurgence my guess would be selection in place somehow e.g. farmer descended females incorporated into the IE had more surviving kids than IE descended females for some reason or other.

    On the ANE thing my guess would be brains vs brawn i.e. 100% ANE had a lot of brawn but were out competed on brains and so got pushed back to the mountains but mixed populations, say 15-20% ANE got an effective dose of both.

    .

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maciamo and others need recongnition for suggesting R1b in west Europe is IE-derived, so many years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you very much for the link! According to her Professor Reich said that R1b in Europe came with the Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya. And R1b was not really native to Yamnaya. I'm sure that the 'Near Eastern' half in Yamnaya was brought into the Yamnaya by R1b, J2a and maybe even R1a (, oldest clades of R1a* are West Asian too,) folks from the Iranian Plateau. This is what I did always believe, that R1b was part of the Indo-Europeans that migrated into Europe. R1a is so OVERRATED, although I'm R1a* myself. But the most important info is that R1b in Europe was brought by Indo-European folks from Yamnaya! I LOVE science of genetics!
    Yes, I see where she reports that...
    "*Added: I have found my note. He said in the question session that Yamnaya had brought R1a and R1b to Europe."

    There's nothing in what she reported to indicate that R1b was not native to Yamnaya. We'll have to wait and see what yDna they have, from where, and from what time period.

    I will agree that the advent of ancient DNA testing and advanced statistical models are certainly giving us a lot more clarity concerning the population history of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Just guesses...

    On the farmer resurgence my guess would be selection in place somehow e.g. farmer descended females incorporated into the IE had more surviving kids than IE descended females for some reason or other.

    On the ANE thing my guess would be brains vs brawn i.e. 100% ANE had a lot of brawn but were out competed on brains and so got pushed back to the mountains but mixed populations, say 15-20% ANE got an effective dose of both.

    .
    I don't know if that would explain all of it, but it may explain some of it. Different mtDna lineages do have different fitness indices, and perhaps some combinations of mtDna and yDna have more fertility than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Maciamo and others need recongnition for suggesting R1b in west Europe is IE-derived, so many years ago.
    Indeed, he does, and Jean Manco as well. I have thought it rather shabby that those who disagreed with her have so often been disrespectful. It continues even today as she is being cross examined and found wanting apparently for not having a photographic memory. Totally boorish and uncivilized behavior...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, I see where she reports that...
    "*Added: I have found my note. He said in the question session that Yamnaya had brought R1a and R1b to Europe."

    There's nothing in what she reported to indicate that R1b was not native to Yamnaya. We'll have to wait and see what yDna they have, from where, and from what time period.

    I will agree that the advent of ancient DNA testing and advanced statistical models are certainly giving us a lot more clarity concerning the population history of Europe.
    True, but I was assuming it because R1b clades in West Asia, like in Armenian population, are older than the European R1b clades. And there is a lot of so called 'Gedrosia' component in the areas in Europe where R1b is high. R1b places in Europe are more 'Gedrosia' heavy than other places in Europe! Also, there was a migration from Maykop to Yamnaya; kurgans in Maykop are older than Kurgans in Yamnaya...



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, he does, and Jean Manco as well. I have thought it rather shabby that those who disagreed with her have so often been disrespectful. It continues even today as she is being cross examined and found wanting apparently for not having a photographic memory. Totally boorish and uncivilized behavior...
    A good deed never goes unpunished.

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    Okay, Jean Manco reports that David Reich said R1a and R1b are both connected to ANE (not news) and that Bell Beaker had less ANE than Corded Ware. But where did Manco indicate Reich said that Yamnaya had R1b? What I got out of her comments was the idea that Bell Beaker R1b had less ANE than Corded Ware and IE R1a, as one would expect. Or did I miss something?

    Clarification: I do think it's possible that some R1b could be connected to Yamnaya but not necessarily and certainly not all of it. So if there was Yamnaya R1b, I want subclade information. I still think most European R1b arrived by sea from Anatolia during the late Neolithic. But hopefully the upcoming paper will finally shed some light.
    Last edited by Aberdeen; 10-02-15 at 05:02. Reason: clarification to state the obvious

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    Reich said in his presentation R1a and R1b in Europe are from Yamna. He also said they're connected to ANE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Manco
    Yamnaya are a mixture of ANE and a population of Near Eastern origin which arrived in Europe via a different route than the early farmers. In fact he said they did not come via Europe. I assume that he means they were not simply EEF, but he did not give any details or mention that they were ANE-rich. He speculated that they could have come from the Caucasus.

    As we already knew, Reich's team has found a discontinuity between the TRB and Corded Ware. As previously reported, he said that CW samples were 75% Yamnaya, which he qualified as descended from a Yamnaya-like population. ANE linked to R1a and R1b. ANE in Bell Beaker samples at a lower level than in CW. The proportions of the three components (WHG, EEF and ANE) were different in the Iberian BB from that in Germany.
    This seems to confirms everything I have theorised over the last six years about the history of R1b.

    R1b came from the Near East, crossed the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe, then spread westward to the rest of Europe. The Bell Beaker period saw the progressive invasion of R1b people in what was originally a non-R1b culture, hence the higher ANE in German BB samples than in Iberian ones (proof that R1b came countercurrent to the original diffusion of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia to central Europe).
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This seems to confirms everything I have theorised over the last six years about the history of R1b.

    R1b came from the Near East, crossed the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe, then spread westward to the rest of Europe. The Bell Beaker period saw the progressive invasion of R1b people in what was originally a non-R1b culture, hence the higher ANE in German BB samples than in Iberian ones (proof that R1b came countercurrent to the original diffusion of the Bell Beaker culture from Iberia to central Europe).
    it's a pitty they don't say anything about Anatolians and Tochars
    David Anthony himself mentioned the part of his story about invasions in Gumelnita 6000 - 6200 years ago by IE recieves a lot of skepticism
    it seems to me Anatolians and Tochars split from R1b IE before they crossed the Caucasus where R1a joined the R1b IE
    IMO Anatolians and Tochars were R1b, not R1a

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    German BB was later than Iberian BB
    German BB would have originated in Hungary

    so there is a difference in ANE
    this does not necessarily mean there is a difference in R1b
    maybe Iberian BB took non-IE wives

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    Maciamo do you still believe in Unetice as the cradle for west-European R1b ?
    I think it might be the case
    BB was the first wave of R1b to Europe
    but R1b-P312 may have originated in Unetice

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Reich said in his presentation R1a and R1b in Europe are from Yamna. He also said they're connected to ANE.
    So were you present at the conference? Or did someone else who was present at the conference clearly state that? Because it definitely doesn't seem clear to me from what Jean Manco posted. I may be mistaken and R1b may in fact be from Yamnaya, but I don't think Manco's posts on the other forum make that clear at all. And in fact we do have two pre-IE Bell Beaker Rib samples. I wonder if Reich's sampling included Iberia Bell Beaker Y DNA samples. I would assume it must have, as otherwise any comments he made about Iberian BB Y DNA would have been made sans data. I had assumed that all the new DNA samples being looked at were from the Samara region.

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    Goga may be right after all : maybe Leyla Tepe were the first IE
    but apart from wikipedia I don't find any info about Leyla Tepe
    anybody else?

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    Now a clarification is needed if R1b was the Old Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Maciamo do you still believe in Unetice as the cradle for west-European R1b ?
    I think it might be the case
    BB was the first wave of R1b to Europe
    but R1b-P312 may have originated in Unetice
    Depends what you mean by cradle. As you can see on my migrations maps, I showed red dots (R1b) advancing in the blue Bell Beaker/Megalithic cultures. So R1b already spread across most of western Europe during the late Bell Beaker period, but these early R1b skirmishers were culturally absorbed by the native populations. Unetice represents the first true steppe-like culture founded by R1b people in central Europe. Corded Ware was the slightly earlier R1a variant. The two overlapped, explaining the dual R1a-R1b nature of modern Germans and Czechs (whose R1a is apparently descended primarily from the Corded Ware and not from later Slavic migrations).


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    BB was the first wave
    but the main R1b in Europe are U106 and P312
    IMO this was the 2nd wave and P312 may have originated in Unetice

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's a pitty they don't say anything about Anatolians and Tochars
    David Anthony himself mentioned the part of his story about invasions in Gumelnita 6000 - 6200 years ago by IE recieves a lot of skepticism
    it seems to me Anatolians and Tochars split from R1b IE before they crossed the Caucasus where R1a joined the R1b IE
    IMO Anatolians and Tochars were R1b, not R1a
    I doubt that the Anatolian and Tocharian branches split before R1b IE crossed the Caucasus. The linguistic distance points at a separation just before IE languages coalesced in the Yamna period. How else would Anatolian and Tocharian languages have vocabulary for steppe-related terms, chariots, and even Uralic borrowings ? In this regard I completely agree with David Anthony's new paper.

    The scenario that makes the most sense is that the Anatolian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people who invaded the eastern Balkans (Gumelniţa–Karanovo), while the Tocharian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people (Repin culture ?) who migrated to the Altai and founded the Afanasevo culture.

    I am not as sure as you that Anatolian and Tocharian branches lacked R1a. There is enough old R1a in both Anatolia and the Altai to suppose that they were both R1a and R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I doubt that the Anatolian and Tocharian branches split before R1b IE crossed the Caucasus. The linguistic distance points at a separation just before IE languages coalesced in the Yamna period. How else would Anatolian and Tocharian languages have vocabulary for steppe-related terms, chariots, and even Uralic borrowings ? In this regard I completely agree with David Anthony's new paper.

    The scenario that makes the most sense is that the Anatolian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people who invaded the eastern Balkans (Gumelniţa–Karanovo), while the Tocharian branch descended from the pre-Yamna steppe people (Repin culture ?) who migrated to the Altai and founded the Afanasevo culture.

    I am not as sure as you that Anatolian and Tocharian branches lacked R1a. There is enough old R1a in both Anatolia and the Altai to suppose that they were both R1a and R1b.
    isn't almost all R1a in the Altai Z-93 ?
    I don't know about Anatolian ..
    IMO hte R1b east of Ural are Tochars, who were ousted by the later Indo-Iranians
    do you know more about Uyghur R1b ? are they M73 or M269 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The ANE is higher in Scandinavia than in the Ukraine, so perhaps they didn't die out?
    Norway
    Lithuania
    Estonia
    Iceland
    Scotland
    Czech Rep.
    Belarus
    Hungary
    Ukraine
    England
    Croatia
    There may have been multiple sources for European ANE, not only IE R1a and R1b, but also Uralic N1c1 and even Q in Scandinavia or more recent Hunnic Q and C2.
    Or the N1a Iron age Hungarian or Turkic or Mongolian ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    isn't almost all R1a in the Altai Z-93 ?
    I don't know about Anatolian ..
    IMO hte R1b east of Ural are Tochars, who were ousted by the later Indo-Iranians
    do you know more about Uyghur R1b ? are they M73 or M269 ?
    I don't have much data on the deep R1a subclades of Altaians or Uyghurs. But the nearby Bashkirs, who have a lot of R1b like the Uyghurs, have a mixture of R1a-Z280 (including the Central European CTS3402), R1a-Z93 (mostly the Andronovo Z2123), R1b-L23 (with some L150) and a bit of Central Asian R1b-M73 and Celtic R1b-L2.

    The Tocharians almost certainly belonged to R1b-L23 and R1a-Z280. I'd say in a proportion 2:1.

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