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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    hmmm?

    what do you think this sentence means from page 3 of the haak paper

    the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a
    population of Near Eastern ancestry.
    We don't have Ancient Near Eastern DNA to conclude that. It might be vice versa, the 50% dark green admixture in Yamnaya could have spread from Caucasus to Near East and the rest came with IE to Near East with invasion.
    A similar (darker green) component also distinguishes LN/EBA groups from earlier ones at K=16; this
    component appears to be highly represented in groups from South Asia, the Near East, and the
    Caucasus. The existence of this component may correspond to the evidence for “dilution” of EHG
    ancestry in the Yamnaya (SI7), showing them to have evenly split ancestry between the “dark blue”
    hunter-gatherer and “dark green” component; the analysis of SI9 also suggests an even split between
    an EHG and a Near Eastern component in the ancestry of the Yamnaya. The “dark green” component
    seems to have been carried from a Yamnaya-related population to the Corded Ware and other Late
    Neolithic and Bronze Age populations of central Europe. A useful topic for future work is to study the
    relationship of LN/BA populations to contemporary South Asians, Caucasian and Near Eastern
    populations and to see if this affinity (in contrast to earlier Europeans) may be related to the dispersal
    of Indo-European languages.
    For my logic the dark green came from Caucasus. If it was truly old Near Eastern it would have spread to Europe with EEF, but it didn't. It was stuck in Caucasus till copper/bronze age.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Thanks

    but the orange arrived in central europe before the EHG according to page 25 of the paper, did the blue and green populace mix in Yamnaya and then follow orange a thousand plus years later?
    Actually orange/farmer guys inserted themselves into population of blue and green hunter gatherer in Yamnaya first. Only after mixing with farmers/orange in Yamnaya the population of Yamnaya stopped being HG, grew in numbers as new farmers (West Yamnaya), and expanded into central europe as farming community of Corded Ware. East Yamnaya stayed as HG/horseback herders/ and a bit of farmers and expanded into East Steppe as Andronovo Indo-Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    modern greek numbers match dorian numbers and not minoan or mycenean that good

    do you have any mycenean numbers that match Greek?

    Modern Greek doesn't really mean anything to me. I'm thinking of pre-Greek greece (non-Greek speaking) vs. Greek Greece (Greek speaking). Two completely different cultures when they meet. The change is obvious in the archaeological and what little historical record they have. Although it sounds like the two peoples may have homogenized very quickly, which is consistent with the data you cite. But the arrival of the Mycenaean signals a very distinct indoeuropean newcomer. I believe much of the Pantheon is maintained through the flourish of the Dorians, which is hard to reconcile given the seeming obliteration of Mycenaean hegemony, which is further compounded by the fog of the BAC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    For my logic the dark green came from Caucasus. If it was truly old Near Eastern it would have spread to Europe with EEF, but it didn't. It was stuck in Caucasus till copper/bronze age.
    EEF - G2a2 came from coastal southwest Anatolia

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...uropean-farmer

    there were many different ethnicities in other areas of SW Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Did you predict that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians ? It makes sense since the Mordovians have one of the highest incidence of red hair and I always sustained that genes of red hair were brought by R1b people (and blond hair by R1a people).

    Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. That's the supposed geographic route followed by R1b Yamna tribes from Ukraine to central Europe.
    All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

    looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    EEF - G2a2 came from coastal southwest Anatolia

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...uropean-farmer

    there were many different ethnicities in other areas of SW Asia
    I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.





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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Actually orange/farmer guys inserted themselves into population of blue and green hunter gatherer in Yamnaya first. Only after mixing with farmers/orange in Yamnaya the population of Yamnaya stopped being HG, grew in numbers as new farmers (West Yamnaya), and expanded into central europe as farming community of Corded Ware. East Yamnaya stayed as HG/horseback herders/ and a bit of farmers and expanded into East Steppe as Andronovo Indo-Iranians.
    Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

    I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

    looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)
    You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

    Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

    If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

    Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I do not know for sure, but I think they made a mistake. Karelian you can also find 6000+/- year R1b-Z2103 in15%+/- (Arkhangelsk region and amongst the Komi at 16%the same for Iraqi Jews they also have 15 -20% R1b-Z2103 so they are sampling all R1b-Z2103 and using R1b-Z2103 population regions in their models. Of course the oldest to date now is in the center of these two poles of R1b-Z2103 5-6.4K+/- the Yamnaya R1b1 sample at 7.6 K +/-
    Why would this necessarily mean that the authors were "wrong"? As you know, there is no necessarily direct connection between a specific yDna lineage and autosomal signature.

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    Alan:What if this single R1b in the EHG was actually from a pastoralist who impregnated some EHG lady!.
    It would have had to have been going on for quite a long while for this sample to be almost 100% EHG.

    Alan:
    I say this because I honestly doubt that an all female migration was able to impose their pastoralist lifestyle on the EHG.
    I actually wouldn't find it at all surprising if the "farmers" were matrilineal in terms of descent. That might go some way toward explaining the incorporation of hunter-gatherer men in Europe. We also have the example of the American Indians. Men took on the cultural identity of their mothers.

    However, in Europe the "Near Eastern" yDna lineages are also present. That isn't to say that we won't find some "G" and "J2" on the steppe, but we don't have them yet.

    Also, it seems that these intrusive "Near Eastern" lineages were pastoralist, and pastoralist societies today are almost always patrilineal and patrilocal, yes?
    Alan:how many times in History did it actually happen that there was an all female migration?
    Never to my knowledge, although there are some mostly male migrations.

    Alan: So I honestly doubt the bride hypothesis
    I tend to doubt it as well. I mean, I'm very familiar with the Rape of the Sabines and all of that, but the scale in this case would have had to have been huge, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.
    and yet, the difference between the Yamnaya samples and the 2 EHG samples is the 'Armenian-like' admixture
    this 'Armenian-like' admixture is different fom EEF
    or do you think the origin of this 'Armenian-like' is not SW Asian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

    Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

    If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

    Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.
    I predicted at Eurogenes. Mordovians and other Volga-people might be mostly descended of Yamna-types who admixed with newcomers from Siberia. The single Saami sample Eurogenes has is from Finland and clusters with Volga-pops, so Yamna might also be similar to them. Also an Iron Age "Cimmerian" from Hungary appears to have been similar to Yamna.

    Because there are so many different mutations associated with red hair and some have very obvious geographic trends it really matters which one if any of the ancient samples carry. So, if any of the R1b-Yamna or Bell beaker carry R160W which is most popular cause for red hair in the North sea, that would be evidence they carried it to northwest Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sure there were other yDna lineages. I'm not sure they were all that different autosomally. The oldest evidence of neolithic settlement in Cyprus is dated to 8800–8600 BC. By that time wouldn't the population of the Near East have been pretty admixed? I think that was the implication of Paschou et al. Therefore, I would think these island hopping farmers brought the genes as well as the animals from the Zagros with them at least.



    The haak paper is about steppe/yamnya movement into central europe, not about anatolian

    Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years
    ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their
    ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of
    Europe from its eastern periphery.
    This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least

    ~3,000 years ago,and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans.

    IMO, there was no J found because J seems to have origins in the fertile crescent and the zargos mountains "prevented" a massive movement north into south caucasus to follow these EN "south caucasus people " into yamnya lands
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    All wrong. The Unetice samples were all (3/3) I2 y dna and had less Yamnaya admixture than the Bell Beakers who were all (3/3) R1b y dna. All of the Yamnaya samples tested so far have had dark hair and dark eyes. The oldest evidence of blonde hair comes from a 5000 BC individual in hungary with an EEF autosomal makeup and I2 y dna.

    looks like you were right the yamnaya but wrong about beakers, unetice, and pigmentation (1/4)
    Blondism is probably a lot more complex than that. My maternal grandmother had blond hair and my other three grandparents had black hair but my father and I were both born with blonde hair that got darker as we got older. And one of my sisters is a blond and the other two have always had dark hair. So it's complicated. And there were R1a types with light hair and light eyes in the Andronov sites that are about 4000 years old. And there seems to be some overlap between those modern populations that have a lot of R1b and those modern populations that have a lot of people with the red hair and blue eyes (e.g. Ireland and Scotland). So we certainly can't conclude at this point that Yamnaya people were all dark haired and dark eyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    and yet, the difference between the Yamnaya samples and the 2 EHG samples is the 'Armenian-like' admixture
    this 'Armenian-like' admixture is different fom EEF
    or do you think the origin of this 'Armenian-like' is not SW Asian?
    I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I do think that this "Armenian like" component is from southwest Asia if that definition includes not only the Levant but also adjacent areas involved in the genesis of the "Neolithic" package, ie. the domestication of animals as well as plants, and is distinguished from the more specialized "Southwest Asian" of, for example, the Dodecad calculators.
    See:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    What I meant is that as the Neolithic farmers moved into areas like the Caucasus and/or Iran, they probably did admix with another group, as the ones who moved into Europe at some point mixed with WHG or a related population. Somehow a South Asian signal was incorporated which may be ANE related in addition to ANE from perhaps another source? The whole relationship of ANE to South Asian populations requires a lot more clarification.

    See this Dienekes post:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    Also, as to the existence of a specific Caucasus group separate from the farmers in Anatolia (and ultimately EEF), I think we need to incorporate the data on Kostenki, who after all lived not so far away. According to
    Eske Willerslev he was Basal Eurasian, which of course is a major component of ENF and EEF .
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/11...leolithic.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Blondism is probably a lot more complex than that. My maternal grandmother had blond hair and my other three grandparents had black hair but my father and I were both born with blonde hair that got darker as we got older. And one of my sisters is a blond and the other two have always had dark hair. So it's complicated. And there were R1a types with light hair and light eyes in the Andronov sites that are about 4000 years old. And there seems to be some overlap between those modern populations that have a lot of R1b and those modern populations that have a lot of people with the red hair and blue eyes (e.g. Ireland and Scotland). So we certainly can't conclude at this point that Yamnaya people were all dark haired and dark eyed.
    We have over 50 Eneolithic-bronze age Pontic steppe samples from many different sites with calls in key pigmentation SNPs. 90% most defiantly had brown eyes(or maybe some grey). Other calls suggest they had pigmentation most similar to modern west Asians. In terms of skin-pigmentation the same is true for EEF, but EEF had more light eyes because of alot of WHG ancestry. We have a pretty good idea what-type of pigmentation both had.

    I don't think we can associate the change in pigmentation in Europe in the last 6,000 years with one genetic group(like Yamna-types) but that it was more of a gradual change that involved many different and related people.

    If anyone though it can be associated with the Yamna-types and later CWC and BB-types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    We have over 50 Eneolithic-bronze age Pontic steppe samples from many different sites with calls in key pigmentation SNPs. 90% most defiantly had brown eyes(or maybe some grey). Other calls suggest they had pigmentation most similar to modern west Asians. In terms of skin-pigmentation the same is true for EEF, but EEF had more light eyes because of alot of WHG ancestry. We have a pretty good idea what-type of pigmentation both had.

    I don't think we can associate the change in pigmentation in Europe in the last 6,000 years with one genetic group(like Yamna-types) but that it was more of a gradual change that involved many different and related people.

    If anyone though it can be associated with the Yamna-types and later CWC and BB-types.
    I agree with most of that; certainly they seem to have been dark eyed and mostly dark haired. However, in terms of skin pigmentation I'm not sure they would have been modern "West Asian" like, which is in any case a subjective judgment. There are fairer and darker West Asians. It would be more clear if they had tested for SLC24A5 as well as SLC45A2, and other snps as well, since pigmentation is polygenic. For other readers, see Sandra Wilde et al 2014
    http://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832

    In the first figure of the supplement there is a list of the specific sites from which the samples were taken, their mtDna information, and the pigmentation snp results.
    www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2014/03/05/1316513111.DCSupplemental/pnas.201316513SI.pdfhttp://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832

    Yamnaya and Catacomb Culture pigmentation snps.JPG

    Ed. Sorry, it's not legible. People will have to go to the link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with most of that; certainly they seem to have been dark eyed, and mostly dark haired. However, in terms of skin pigmentation I'm not sure they would have been modern "West Asian" like, which is in any case a subjective judgment. There are fairer and darker West Asians. It would be more clear if they had tested for SLC24A5 as well as SLC45A2 and other snps as well, since pigmentation is polygenic. For other readers, see Sandra Wilde et al 2014
    http://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/111/13/4832
    Yes, we may never know exactly what they looked like but it can't be random most both EEF and Yamna samples lack mutations associated with light skin in modern Europe. Remember even the 4,000YBP Pole had "dark complexion", something's going on. Looking at it from a world or west Eurasian view it is very strange that so many north Euros have yellow hair, and it makes sense this is a recent phenomenon. 5,000YBP most of the ancestors of north Euros(mostly Yamna and EEF) probably had similar pigmentation as west Asians and or south Europeans.

    rs16891982 and rs1042602 are the two skin-color related SNPs in Hirisplex that Euros and west Asians differ the most in. Looking at ancient DNA Yamna and EEF are just like west Asians in terms of those two SNPs. Whatever diversity in skin color west Asians have Yamna and EEF may have also had it. Bronze age Euro samples are more similar to modern Euros in terms of those SNPs. I suspect those two SNPs are key to understanding why west Asians and Europeans have different skin color. Sardinians have the lowest amount of derived alleles in rs16891982 in Europe and could easily pass as west Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

    I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.
    I think the difference between West and East Yamnaya is shown in Corded Ware people. Corded Ware being descendents of West Yamnaya. West Yamnaya being a mixture of Yamnaya + Cucuteni. The orange in Corded Ware is from Cucuteni farmers. The mixing of Yamnaya and Cucuteni is attested by archeology, therefore it is safe to conclude that early neolithic farming admixture/orange came from Cucuteni farmers from Balkans. I believe they got some more farming genetic package from Armenian side admixture, the dark green. So they were more of farmers that 20% of orange could represent.

    The East Yamnaya folks with less farming genes and more hunter gatherer/herders admixture,and a lot of R2013, fit better the horse back herders, Indo Iranian scenario, migrating to the East, then around caspian sea into the Middle East, and later some of them trickling down into the Balkans.

    The 50% Armenian admixture, which I called Ancient Caucasian Admixture, muches the best of distribution of known Caucasian admixture, maybe with some West Asian in it. It took part in spreading farming, being part of EEF package. But it also has a strong presence in East Europe, matching ruffly Yamnaya/Corded Ware spread.




    This Ancient Caucasus/Kostenki14/half Armenian signal can't be Gedrosia. We know that it was very strong in Yamnaya and Corded, and it would took a lot of explaining why isn't it present now in Eastern Europe, even at noise level.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You can't know anything about pigmentation from a handful of samples. Even within a same family eye and hair colour can very tremendously.

    Unetice samples obviously had less Yamna admixture than the Corded Ware or Bell Beaker since Unetice is more recent, and therefore more admixed with indigenous populations (such as I2).

    If you think that three I2 samples mean that all Unetice people were I2, you shouldn't be writing on this forum (or anywhere for that matter) as you don't understand the first thing about population genetics.

    Anyway, I don't understand your reply. I didn't say that I predicted that Yamna and Corded Ware would cluster closest to the Mordovians or that Unetice clusters especially well with Ukrainians, Hungarians and Czechs. I was asking Fire Haired14 if he had predicted that on Eurogenes, as he was claiming that the Yamna, Corded ware, Bell Beaker, and Unetice are clustering on PCAs exactly as he predicted.
    Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.

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    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    yo guys,

    I heard william Parkinson finished his research in Diros project,
    I know DNA tests have been done,
    does anyone found a summary or a result?
    I am searching 2 weeks now
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #297
    Regular Member Aberdeen's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

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    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.
    If you intend to continue being so childish and so rude to our host, could you at least conceal your national identity? You're an embarrassment to our country.

  23. #298
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I guess I didn't explain myself very well. I do think that this "Armenian like" component is from southwest Asia if that definition includes not only the Levant but also adjacent areas involved in the genesis of the "Neolithic" package, ie. the domestication of animals as well as plants, and is distinguished from the more specialized "Southwest Asian" of, for example, the Dodecad calculators.
    See:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    What I meant is that as the Neolithic farmers moved into areas like the Caucasus and/or Iran, they probably did admix with another group, as the ones who moved into Europe at some point mixed with WHG or a related population. Somehow a South Asian signal was incorporated which may be ANE related in addition to ANE from perhaps another source? The whole relationship of ANE to South Asian populations requires a lot more clarification.

    See this Dienekes post:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    Also, as to the existence of a specific Caucasus group separate from the farmers in Anatolia (and ultimately EEF), I think we need to incorporate the data on Kostenki, who after all lived not so far away. According to
    Eske Willerslev he was Basal Eurasian, which of course is a major component of ENF and EEF .
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/11...leolithic.html
    I mentioned SW Asia in the first place and not just the Fertile Crescent
    Acording to the book 'First Migrants' by Peter Bellwood, farming started 11500 years ago, but expansion beyond the fertile crescent started only 9000 years ago
    West to Europe, east till Pakistan (Indus Valley)
    He says 8500 years ago there was an expansion till western Armenia, but not beyond, so not to Transcaucasia
    So there was space room lest for other tribes south of the Caucasus
    As we now know expansion to Europe was mainly G2a2, but they also picked up other tribes along the way.
    IMO the frist farmers in the Fertile Crescent were not G2a2, I would guess J2a, and these people also expanded eastwarts, probably just like G2a2 picking up other tribes on the way
    Maykop seems to be associated with the Uruk expansion 6-5000 years ago.
    Question is where Maykop R1b-M269 and R1b-M73 crossing the Caucasus or where these tribes allready on the steppe before that and did they get admixed with Maykop people north of the Caucasus before the 1st expansion of IE. (In the 2nd case, who were the Maykop people then?)

  24. #299
    Elite member holderlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Nice to see that your counter argument is anecdotal and an ad hominem. Perfect example of the childish attitude and willful ignorance that is your answer to the mountain of data that directly contradicts all of your batshit crazy theories. Also exemplary of why I never bother to put antany effort into anything I post here if I even bother at all. Good luck with trying to spin your Indo European ubermensch yarn, its only going to get more difficult as the data grows.
    Damn
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wait...So are you saying that when the authors of the Haak et al paper say that the "Yamnaya" people were half "Armenian like", they're only ta;king about the people of the eastern steppe who then became the Indo-Iranians? Z2103 is also present in the Balkans, southern Italy, Anatolia, etc.

    I ask because I thought you were proposing that the Yamnaya people didn't have a big chunk of the orange component.
    I think that the early Kurgan people(Leila-Tepe Maykop and Kurganized Yamna) had Satem languages
    Albanians + Armenians have many Z2103 and Albanians + Armenians are Satem.
    Kurgan people invaded the Europe but didn't change the Languages.
    Like the Satem, Sarmatians Alanians and European Huns(with Leto-Slavic or Iranian words "Med" "Strava" etc)
    also invaded the Europe but didn't change the Languages


    But Satem languages existed before the Kurgan people.
    The ancestor cultures to Kurgan cultures are Gawra Ubaid Samarra(not to be confused to Samara) and Halaf, all four cultures were in Mesopotamia-Syria.
    There is Euphratian substratum in Sumerian.
    Euphratian languages possibly were IE, and possibly were ancestors of Satem languages.
    Luvian languages were Satem according to some scholars, while the Hittite "newcomer" from Europe was Kentum.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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