Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

very unreliable reconstitutions!
to Alan:
no, dolichocrane euryprosope (broad low faces) are not 'mediterranean' - they evocate the 'cro-magnon' phylum when jaws are broad too, very ancient, and which features could be found today among populations of same far origin but having evolved towards disfferent modern populations, concerning other autosomes (because thiese traits depend on autosomes, spite some profans remarks) - the typical 'mediterraneans', short or high statured, don't have broad faces, and these broad faces are today a relatively rare to very rare % in pooulations, except some little populated isolats - they did not fade completely out and can be found at low rate in individuals, curiously enough in rugby world among Welshes, Irishmen and French Basques or southwest by instance, or in some parts of Scandinavia, but evolved very early in some parts or were mixed in others -
these faces can be found at higher level in North-East an Central Europe, but then associated to brachycephaly (Borreby touch)- very rare around Mediterranea or Near East all the way -



Yamna is said by all authors to have been broader faced meso_Dolichocephalic.
CM is extremly broad faced Brachycephalic.

Borreby seems to be round faced brachycephalic and light eyed, haired.

Yamna was not brachycephalic. Yamna was pred. Dark haired and eyed. Yamna was meso-Dolichocephalic

In the eastern Mediterranean, North Caucasus and Western Asia there are still allot of this broader faced Mediterranean type.

Reconstruction of Yamna. They don't look CM or Borreby to me.

yamnaya1z3r2ubptdc.jpg
Yamna_cultdure.jpg


The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90).


When I say "broader" faces I don't mean CM like square faces. I am trying to describe a robust mediterranean face which exist allot. To differentiate it from the narrow faced type you are reffering to.

Some more robust CM types did exist,also some more narrow faced Mediterraneans. But the majority was robust faced meso_dolichocephalic.
 
its not centered on this thread, but it concerns it asn other threads linked to history and I-Eans and diverse hypothesis and autosome approximatios:
present in Eurogenes and Dienekes blogs, thanks them - it is somwhat partly discussed by Eurogenes - but it could change our insight about populations moves (for a long time I thought, based upon old anthropology, that Armenians were not a so homgenous group -

Geneticevidence for an origin of the Armenians from Bronze Age mixing ofmultiple populations

MarcHaber et al.

TheArmenians are a culturally isolated population who historicallyinhabited a region in the Near East bounded by the Mediterranean andBlack seas and the Caucasus, but remain underrepresented in geneticstudies and have a complex history including a major geographicdisplacement during World War One. Here, we analyse genome-widevariation in 173 Armenians and compare them to 78 other worldwidepopulations. We find that Armenians form a distinctive clusterlinking the Near East, Europe, and the Caucasus. We show thatArmenian diversity can be explained by several mixtures of Eurasianpopulations that occurred between ~3,000 and ~2,000 BCE, a periodcharacterized by major population migrations after the domesticationof the horse, appearance of chariots, and the rise of advancedcivilizations in the Near East. However, genetic signals ofpopulation mixture cease after ~1,200 BCE when Bronze Agecivilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean world suddenly andviolently collapsed. Armenians have since remained isolated andgenetic structure within the population developed ~500 years ago whenArmenia was divided between the Ottomans and the Safavid Empire inIran. Finally, we show that Armenians have higher genetic affinity toNeolithic Europeans than other present-day Near Easterners, and that29% of the Armenian ancestry may originate from an ancestralpopulation best represented by Neolithic Europeans.



Doesn't matter because the European like portion of the Armenians is pred. EEF like which totally lacks among Yamna.

And as me and Angela and even Dienekes have been pointing out and people haven't yet red. Armenians ar enot even the best proxy for the Near Eastern like DNA in Yamna.

If you replace Armenian with iraqi Jew you get even higher similarity (52%) which again shows us that the similarity to Yamna has absolutely nothing to do with the European origin of Armenians.

Additional to that we have a comment from Dienekes which sums it up
The authors present a table of Fst values which confirms the homogenizing influence of migrations from the Near East. The WHG group has an Fst=0.086 with Armenians, but the LBK farmers have only 0.023. The EHG group has an Fst=0.067 with Armenians, but the Yamnaya steppe people have only 0.030. Someone might argue that it is the Armenians that are receiving genes from Europe, but the same pattern holds even for the Bedouins, for which admixture with Europeans seems far-fetched: 0.106 to 0.043 and 0.093 to 0.060. It is now clear that the "glue" that did not allow West Eurasian populations to drift very far apart were migrations from the Near East.

Obviously that is West Asian admixture reaching Europe and not European genes reaching Armenians.
 
Drax said:
No, sorry I think he look like European, I have talked about France because I live in this country and I know a guy with the same face.

Now when I think of it. The fact that he has a very Kurdish face to me and yet you say he could also pass as "French", speaks actually for my claim that he looks very Yamna.

If you know what I mean.
 
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Our speculation seem to have been roughly correct. it seems Yamna was 25-30% WHG, 30% ANE and the rest must be ENF part of Caucasus_Gedrosia.
t.
Were Caucasian and Gedrosia found in early neolithic farmers?
 
Now when I think of it. The fact that he has a very Kurdish face and yet you say he could also pass as "French", speaks actually for my claim that he looks very Yamna.

If you know what I mean.

No, not really, that just mean Yamna look like European or "Caucasian", nothing more; that just your opinion he have "a kurdish face" and that not a "fact"; for example one of the Yamna have been compared to Magnus Carlsen in Eupedia forum; and that the same thing in various boards (the comparaison with Europeans and not "west asians").

for the face analysis about "mediterranean" (a term very vague) face, I'm 100% agree with Moesan, so again agree to disagree with you.
 
Were Caucasian and Gedrosia found in early neolithic farmers?

Caucasus_Gedrosia is not all ANE. contrary Caucasus_Gedrosia is 2/3 farmer like DNA which was diluted by 1/3 ANE admixture coming from the east very early. We had already a debate about this one few pages ago.
 
No, not really, that just mean Yamna look like European or "Caucasian", nothing more; that just your opinion he have "a kurdish face" and that not a "fact"; for example one of the Yamna have been compared to Magnus Carlsen in Eupedia forum; and that the same thing in various boards (the comparaison with Europeans and not "west asians").

for the face analysis about "mediterranean" (a term very vague) face, I'm 100% agree with Moesan, so again agree to disagree with you.

Are you serious? It is ok to accept your "opinion" that he looks European even though he is not, because you are familiar with French but it is not ok to accept my opinion that he has a Kurdish face and even though he IS KURD (in the case you missed that one).

Could you show me a French guy who looks similar to him for comparison?


And no in this case he is unfortunately not right, when we talk about a population which had less light gene alleles than any modern West Eurasian, similar amount of light eyes as West Asians.

So how would you classify a pred. dark haired, dark eyed, olive skinned, meso_dolichocephalic people, if not Mediterranean? I think you missed that part. most reliable scientists point that out.

Obviously not rounder faced, flashy nosed, lighter featured, brachycephalic borreby.

Eurocentrism is what speaks out of you without doubt. Not even a single reliable scientist would come to the idea to claim they look European the way what you consider European looking (North European).
 
@Alan

Look, I don't understand your opinion; Yamna is kurd is a fact now ? I should have missed something or there are a misunderstanding somewhere.

Now I have never said you can't say what you want; and never say you should accept my opinion (please quote me if you have seen the opposite); I just disagree with you; nothing more nothing less.

And to accuse someone to be "eurocentrism" (I'm not European) like it was an insult; like I have already said, I find that weird and funny, from someone who claim to be a kurdish nationalist and kurdish-centrism in your previous message and to be proud of it...specially in the board of "Eupedia".

First Reich and his team are "eurocentrism", now that me; okay if you want.

Also when you say about yamna: "smiliar amount of light eyes as west asians"; you are completly wrong; the Yamna and Catacomb (who were not sure to be indo-europeans, but could have been Siberians or Eurasians); have 16% of blue eyes (probably more with the "gray eyes") I quote Maciamo in the other thread: "The frequency of the two other genes, HERC2 and TYR, came as an even bigger surprise, as a mere 16% and 4% of Bronze Age Steppe people possessed them."; that make them way more light eyed than "west asians"; and something close to south Europeans or North Caucasians.

Also these samples teste don't have Y dna, so we are not really sure of their identity, we will see for the Reich samples if that the same thing about their pigmentations.
 
@Alan

Look, I don't understand your opinion; Yamna is kurd is a fact now ? I should have missed something or there are a misunderstanding somewhere.

Now I have never said you can't say what you want; and never say you should accept my opinion (please quote me if you have seen the opposite); I just disagree with you; nothing more nothing less.

And to accuse someone to be "eurocentrism" (I'm not European) like it was an insult; like I have already said, I find that weird and funny, from someone who claim to be a kurdish nationalist and kurdish-centrism in your previous message...specially in the board of "Eupedia".

When you say: smiliar amount of light eyes as west asians"; you are completly wrong; the Yamna and Catacomb (who were not sure to be indo-europeans, but could have been Siberians or Eurasians); have 16% of blue eyes (probably more with the "gray eyes) "The frequency of the two other genes, HERC2 and TYR, came as an even bigger surprise, as a mere 16% and 4% of Bronze Age Steppe people possessed them."; that make them way more light eyed than "west asians"; and something close to south Europeans or North Caucasians.

Also these samples teste don't have Y dna, so we are not really sure of their identity, we will see for the Reich samples if that the same thing.

You don't only not understand my opinion you do not "understand" any of the scientific facts I have given. Where did I wrote Yamna is a Kurd?
I wrote this guy looks like a Yamna individual and he is Kurd. Does that mean all Kurds look Yamna, or vica versa? I even mentioned that there are most likely also individuals from other nations who can fit as Yamna type, just that I as a Kurd am more familiar with my people, therefore used Kurdish samples as example. If you have French examples for comparison you can post them nothing wrong about that.

What are you even trying to say with "also these sample tests have no Y dna". Do you think Y dna determines hair, eye and skin color?
Just because the Forums name is called "Eupedia" doesn't mean it is ok to claim something wrong, as long as it is European nonsense. There is no difference between Afrocentrism, Eurocentrism or West Asian centrism or whatever centrism. If it obviously doesn't make sense.

Again anyone with a some understanding of genetics would know what "Yamna had less frequency of the light skin genes than any West Eurasians" means.

And the light eyes frequency of Yamna was akine to northern West Asians. Nothing to debate there.

I think I am totally wasting my time.

Have a nice day.
 
You don't only not understand my opinion you don't "understand" any scientific facts which have not a good taste for you. Where did I wrote Yamna is a Kurd?
I wrote this guy looks like a Yamna individual and he is Kurd. Does that mean all Kurds look Yamna, or vica versa?

Yes, I understand the problem, my comparaison with the french were from the Yamna construction; this:

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/yamnaya1z3r2ubptdc.jpg

I don't have talked about the kurd picture so I don't know why you have quoted me....; for "scientific facts"; I don't have seen lot in your posts.

What are you even trying to say with "also these sample tests have no Y dna". Do you think Y dna determines hair, eye and skin color?
Just because the Forums name is called "Eupedia" doesn't mean you can claim nonsense as long as it is European nonsense.

Never say that, but if the Catacomb have an Y typical of Siberian, if the autosomal dna don't have been tested; how to know that these peoples in Yamna are the same than the others ? Just because they have the same mtdna (WHG and Corded have also the same mtdna) or because they are more or less in the same place ? I don't think so.

For the European "nonsense"; well that your point of view, I'm for the freedom of speech; and I have read lot of west asian or kurdish nonsense from you and other...but I'm okay with that; and I think you don't understand something; I just have said I have found funny that you use "eurocentism" like an insult from you a kurdish-centrist in Eupedia....you have also insulted Reich and his team to be "eurocentism"; I guess that mean for you their works are not "scientifics" too.

Again anyone with a slight percentage of knowledge would understand what "Yamna had less frequency of the light skin genes than any West Eurasians" means.

And the light eyes frequency of Yamna was akine to northern West Asians. Nothing to debate there.

16% of light eyes is very far more that any place in west asian (kurdish, iranian; Syria etc...), nothing to debate here and if you can't understand that I can't help you; now if you count the North Caucasus like "norther West Asian"; that could be a different story; but for me Caucasus are closer to Europe; in my previous message I don't have talked about "skin" (and apparently everybody were supposed "tan skinned" during this time so...).

I think I am totally wasting my time. Now have a nice day.

I'm agree; you waste your time.
 
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For example slightly darker, this French man looks Yamna like too.

frenchman.jpg
 
ok, but he look like European, not kurdish (he seem to have gray or hazel eyes).
 
16% of light eyes is very far more that any place in west asian (kurdish, iranian; Syria etc...), nothing to debate here and if you can't understand that I can't help you; now if you count the North Caucasus like "norther West Asian"; that could be a different story; but for me Caucasus are closer to Europe; in my previous message I don't have talked about "skin" (and apparently every were supposed "tan skinned" during this time so...).

For the last time pleace don't use arguments without evidence/source.

the 16% "Light eyes" in this particular example refer to the AG mutation of the genes. AG is a chance of ~55% Green eyes, ~30% brown eyes and ~15% blue eyes.

It is not light as in typically blue". It is everything from pred. Green to Amber often AG even results in Brown eyes. So it is not clear if all these 16% AG are really light eyes, the chances are simply high. But it is even very likely that not all of these 16% AG are really light eyed!
I myself am AG, chances were higher that I have green eyes but ended up with brown

Than we only have additional 4% of GG for Blue eyes. That is low even for North Iberian, Central_North Italian, North Caucasian and Balkan Slav standards as I have written.

And 7-25% light eyes (amber, green, blue) are typical for northern West Asia (Iran, Syria, Iraq have probably ~7-9% since they border territories with 10-25%).

Europe except Greece, South_Central Spain and South Italy have more of it. But than Greeks, South_Central Spaniards and South Italians have far higher percentage of light skin alleles. So northern West Asian pigmentation does come closer to Yamna than any Europeans.

europe-eyes-general--lig.png
 
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ok, but he look like European, not kurdish (he seem to have gray or hazel eyes).

I didn't said he does :useless:

He looks French. But Gray or Hazel eyes are not the reason for him looking French. I don't know where you have been living if you think HAZEL or grey eyes disqualify him for possibly looking non European (Please don't misunderstand that again, he looks European).
 
Okay sorry for the mistake, I have read HERC2 so for me it was like "strongly associated to "blue eyes" ( don't worry, I know already all the info you have posted about this gene); "Fire haired" seemed to separate them and the "gray eyes" in his message...so I have made a fake conclusion in this context; I don't have read the rest of the info in the article (the updates); okay, but that don't change the fact this map, and your "7-25% of light eyes among west asians and west asians are comparable to South Europeans/Yamna" are just a joke.

I don't know where you have found this map, but to have South European to have in the same level of light eyes than north africa and west asians (both should be in the last dark area), or to have France with the same level with East Europe countries (when they should have close to North Italia; and there are no such a big difference between North and South in France), that have absolutely no sense.

See these statisctics, I don't trust them specially more, but that contradict your maps:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4659289/1/

for example Algeria and Morrocco 5% and Tunisia 6% (that sound too much but closer to the true, and I'm sure Algeria have more light eyes in Maghreb so...); see the difference with your maps, but these statistics have big problems too; Iran 8%; Irak 6% (I see them with less); Chechens 18% (so unlike what you have said, not more than Yamna) but the same for Turkey...lol ? Greece have less light eyes than Turkey....lol ? Syria; Lebanon with 15 and 16% (lol); so more than Israel (lol) ? That I have absolutely no sense.

My point is that these kind of statistics, maps etc... found in internet are in general very mediocre, without real studies, and contradict to each others, so try again with your so-called "scientific arguments".
 
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I didn't said he does :useless:

He looks French. But Gray or Hazel eyes are not the reason for him looking French. I don't know where you have been living if you think HAZEL or grey eyes disqualify him for possibly looking non European (Please don't misunderstand that again, he looks European).

I have never said that his eyes colors qualify him to be more french or Europeans, I have just noticed that his eyes colors, nothing more, don't be parano and don't try to read more in my words.
 
First of all

West Asian pastoralist highlands =/= Anatolian farmer hypothesis.

Yeah I never said this. Nice try.

Although the only real difference between the two is that one is extremely unlikely and one is impossible.


If you made some effort into reading the arguments of the other users, instead of randomly throwing a statement into the room which doese not refute the other arguments, you would have probably known that.

If you did the same you wouldn't be confused as to what I actually posted, and what I did not.

It actually does refute the "West Asian pastoralist highlands" theory.

1. You say the Yamna people simply took wives from the Maykop culture not even showing slight interest into the whole debate going on about this since several pages now, and in which this argument has been refuted and shown how ridiculous nonsense it is.

Reasons are
Yamna does not only have ~50% West Asian highland pastoralist ancestry. Yamna does not only have the pastoralist lifestyle, Also Yamna has the same burying rituals of Maykop and even many more.

I never said this either.

Yamna is basically a clone of Maykop fact. Now instead of simply accpeting the most logical explanation, that there was a migration from the West Asian highlands, via Maykop into the Steppes. We could also argue that it might be possible that Yamna took systematically for over a millennia Maykop brides, and than might have forced these brides to teach them pastoralism and might even asked them to teach them how to burry their deads in Kurgan style. The oldest Kurgans are found in Leila Tepe, NW Iran/North Mesopotamia.

I think till here it should get obvious to everyone how ridiculous this theory sounds. This theory needs so many possibilities to add up at each other to even function properly, It is like tossing a coin 3-4 times and expecting that it turns always right. This is a prime example of how far humans are ready to go just to satisfy their own egos.

Maykop is not a clone of Yamna. I don't necessarily disagree with most of your points here, except that the Leila Tepe comparison to the steppe is a huge reach for many of the same reasons that I would rule out Anatolia, or "West Asian pastoralist highlands" as a PIE homeland/language source or whatever people are trying to place there.

Even Reich himself speaks only about two possibilities.

Either PIE is the product of pastoralists meeting EHG in Yamna (therefore not a bride exchange but real mixing of cultures). Or that PIE was already spoken in the West Asian highlands by a pastoralist population.

Reich completely rules out that EHG could have spoken a PIE language. So no chance there.

I've actually emphasized the likely hood of his first possibility several times on these forums, however the resulting language is not consistent with one that would have arisen in the neolithic Near East, so I disagree with notion that the "proto-proto-language" (or whatever we're even talking about here) somehow originated among these "West Asian highland pastoralist".


sitenote: Mitanni =/= Indic. Someone who had been really interest in this would know it and not let himself be confused by the classification of Indo_Aryan some linguists made.

It is not clear wether Mitanni spoke an archaic and yet undivided(IranoAryan vs Indo Aryan) form of Indo_Iranian or it was part of the Indo_Aryan group which one part went into indian subcontinent while the other into Mesopotamia.

However from what I have been reading it looks much more like Mitanni was a very archaic form of Indo_Iranian(the reason some linguists however classify it as Indo_Aryan is because overall Indo_Aryan is more archaic and akine to proto Indo Iranian than Iranic is) just like Hittite was of PIE. Another reason for me to wonder if the PIE homeland was not too far away.

OK you're just writing about languages for no reason here. No one's impressed.

I addressed the Hittite question. Interesting theory, but inconsistent with the rest of the universe.

Someone who had been really interest in this would know it and not let himself be confused by the classification of Indo_Aryan some linguists made.

And what is this little bit? I think you're the one who's confused. I'm well aware of the origin of Indo-Iranian languages and none of the useless prating you just posted has any bearing on my use of the Mitanni example.
 
Yeah I never said this. Nice try.

Nice try what?
Didn't you put Anatolian/West Asian highland together in one sentence as if there is no difference?
Either you have not much idea or you are just playing around.

This is the traditional definition of Anatolia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

The West Asian highlands theory which is rather connected to the region between the Zagros and Taurus mountains has nothing to do with this.

The Anatolian hypothesis believes in a early farmer origin, the West Asian pastoralist theory not. There are some thousand years in between.

Although the only real difference between the two is that one is extremely unlikely and one is impossible.

Thats what you claim, contrary to scientists and as usual you don't give any arguments to dismis it but keep claiming it is impossible without any reasoning.




If you did the same you wouldn't be confused as to what I actually posted, and what I did not.

It actually does refute the "West Asian pastoralist highlands" theory.

Nope you didn't give a single reasonable argument. But nice try.


I never said this either.

But you claim the pastoralist lifestyle came to Yamna via "cattle stealing". So how else do you explain the 50% West Asian ancestry of Yamna? And the obvious cultural influx.

Did they stole their genes and everything else too? The most logical explanation is a migration nothing less.



Maykop is not a clone of Yamna. I don't necessarily disagree with most of your points here, except that the Leila Tepe comparison to the steppe is a huge reach for many of the same reasons that I would rule out Anatolia, or "West Asian pastoralist highlands" as a PIE homeland/language source or whatever people are trying to place there.

I wrote Yamna is a clone of Maykop, and for a large part it is. If you actually took a look at papers which appeared the last few years, you would know that Maykop has been partly build on cultural elements coming directly from NW Iran and Mesopotamia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2013/06/the-maikop-singularity.html

I've actually emphasized the likely hood of his first possibility several times on these forums, however the resulting language is not consistent with one that would have arisen in the neolithic Near East, so I disagree with notion that the "proto-proto-language" (or whatever we're even talking about here) somehow originated among these "West Asian highland pastoralist".


The point is you are making the mistake that you think horse domestication in PIE is the ultimate proof that it emerged on the Steppes which is simply wrong, because by that time horse domestication was widespred and even known to ancient Sumerians by 3000 BC.

I doubt to that time there was any Steppe migration into Mesopotamia to explain this occurence. Even the first Chariots (Yes it doesn't matter if two or four wheeled because at the end of the day 2 wheels are just a modified version) occur in Western Asia.

http://sumerianshakespeare.com/media/9e52fba4c8055a72ffff80bfffffe415.jpg


OK you're just writing about languages for no reason here. No one's impressed.

Thats why I wrote on a sidenote. :LOL:
I addressed the Hittite question. Interesting theory, but inconsistent with the rest of the universe.

Thats your opinion.



And what is this little bit? I think you're the one who's confused. I'm well aware of the origin of Indo-Iranian languages and none of the useless prating you just posted has any bearing on my use of the Mitanni example.

My friend you called the language of the Mitanni Elite "Indic" simply out of the fact that you thought Indic is equivalent to Indo_Aryan. But there are Indo_Aryan tongues outside India. The only thing I get out from this, is you are using phrases you have catched up without actually background knowledge.
 
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Yamna is said by all authors to have been broader faced meso_Dolichocephalic.
CM is extremly broad faced Brachycephalic.

I have not the time to answer about the whole question here, I'll try to do it after - and I want not to seem focalizing only about metrics anthropology -
BUT 'Cro-Magnon' WAS NOT BRACHYCEPHALIC / he was DOLICHO-MESOCEPHALIC!!! I would be glad to can post you some pictures but I can no more post pictures on this forum for an unkown reason (I had a lot of pictures to illustrate some of my posts...) - AND bORREBY IS NEVER ROUND FACED: the true ones are SQUARE FACED showing some links with Cro-Magnon...
 
I meant that pre IE Norwegians had ~25% WHG. And the rest of their WHG was added with the incoming Yamna. Sometimes more sometimes less depending on the populations.
Western Norway has a different population structure than Sweden, quite a bit of R1a, so it should be seen as an abnormality.

Is anything known about when R1a and R1b populations diverged based on autosomal DNA? The maps I've seen so far suggest R1b reached Western Europe through North Africa. This however poorly explains the common root of IE languages which suggests a recent common origin of R1a and R1b.
 

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