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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
    The Hunter R1b1a in Samara region show that Yamna was Kurganized(Indo-Europeanized) culture,
    Leila-Tepe had Kurgans before the Yamna.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/G.M201/permalink/10152753616688813/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, they found R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, and R1b-Z2103 is native to Anatolia area (very common among Armenians and West Iranic people)
    No, R1b-Z2103 is found in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans today, but that doesn't mean it appeared there. Not anymore than R1b-L51 appeared in Western Europe.
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.
    It is possible that R1b-P297 was found all around the Caspian Sea in the Mesolithic/Neolithic, both north and south of the Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yes, great results. Never expected such a confirmation of my theories. No R1a in Yamnaya, so there's still no evidence that R1a-Z93 in Iranic folks is from Yamnaya or the Pontic-Caspian Steppes in general. I knew it, but didn't expect that they would find Anatolian (Armenian, West Iranic) R1b in Yamnaya. R1b in Yamnaya is Anatolia, which again is a great indication that Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov is right about his Armenian hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis . The latest results are victory for Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov & Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze! It's true that Indo-Europeans in Europe came from Yamnaya. But folks from NorthWest Asia (from Maykop) Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks in the Steppes. I was telling this all the time. Indo-Europeanization occured in stages. Best news for me is that R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And this fact is making my thoughts even stronger!
    R1a-Z93 arose in the Abashevo culture immediately north of Yamna, which spread east and evolved into the Sintashta culture, which in turn expanded to Central Asia with the Andronovo culture. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't solely descended from Yamna, but also from the R1a people of the forest-steppe (Corded Ware + Abashevo). Or are you denying that Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian people are Indo-Europeans ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    No, R1b-Z2103 is found in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans today, but that doesn't mean it appeared there. Not anymore than R1b-L51 appeared in Western Europe.
    Caucaso-Gedrosian component among R1b (Yamnaya & Anatolian folks) is not from the Balkans, or is it? R1b-Z2103 is full of Caucaso-Gedrosian component, what means it's NATIVE to Anatolia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is possible that R1b-P297 was found all around the Caspian Sea in the Mesolithic/Neolithic, both north and south of the Caucasus.
    But it is not really relevant here. If it's relevant that you folks are measuring with double standards. We can also say that the original R1a is from West Asia, since R1a-M420, oldest clades have been found in West Asia and even ancestral clades to R1a-M17 have been found in West Asia. Maciamo, you telling me all the time that only the RECENT sublaced of R1a* are relevant to Indo-European question. Same can be said about R1b*. We have even got an African R1b. What is relevant is the modern clades of R1b. And now we have found direct links and evidences between Anatolia (Maykop) and Yamnaya. There is an Anatolian R1b in Yamnaya, there's an Anatolian auDNA (Caucaso-Gedrosian) in Yamnaya. What do we have need more? Case solved!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1a-Z93 arose in the Abashevo culture immediately north of Yamna, which spread east and evolved into the Sintashta culture, which in turn expanded to Central Asia with the Andronovo culture. The Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't solely descended from Yamna, but also from the R1a people of the forest-steppe (Corded Ware + Abashevo). Or are you denying that Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian people are Indo-Europeans ?
    There's no evidence at ALL that R1a-Z93 arose in Abashevo. It can be from BMAC or the Iranian Plateau (area between Zagros and BMAC). Balto-Slavic people are NOT the same as Iranic people. True, that Balto-Slaic, Indic and Iranic languages are Satem, but there's no proof that they share direct common ancestors. 1) Iranic people belong to a very different R1a subclade which is absent in Europe. Balto-Slavic people are Z280, while Iranic people are Z93. People found acentral clades of Z93 in West Asia and NOT in Europe. 2) (West) Iranic people live not far from the Armenian people and also in a R1b-Z2103 rich region, maybe Iranic people picked up their language from R1b-Z2103 folks, ha ? Maybe R1b-Z2103 folks picked Indo-European language from R1a-S224 just south of the Caspian Sea.

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    Seems like most R1b is Z2103 after all. This is the Western Asian variant. But there was also a l25 (modern European variant).
    One R1a found in the forrest zone.
    But still thats not enough data to take any conclusions because it is said that all the R1b were from one single Samarra valley.


    One thing however is true. Maciamo was right with his theory aft all

    If we look at the Neolithic m343 in Spain, we can come to the conclusion that R1b reached Europe with a dual source.
    First from North Mesopotamia to Maykop and from Maykopt to the Steppes. A second one directly from Mesopotamia to Spain?
    This fits Maciamos theory that R1b was in the southern Steppe region of Yamna while R1a more in the Forrest Region.


    The paper says this is the proof that some of the Indo European languages reached Europe through Yamna. What makes me wonder if they are not able to explain the Indo European expansion as a whole with the Yamna expansion. Also it says the Anatolian Neolithic expansion lost strongly on weight ( I was never a fan of this theory anyways) but the possibility of the pastrolasit origin from North Mesopotamia/North West Iran and South Caucasus has risen once again.

    So the question isn't if Yamna was Indo European (They were without a doubt), but if it's linguistic forefather came with their pastoralist ancestors or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I always wondered why ....If R1a and R1b are the same age , why is western european heavily R1b and eastern europe R1a .........clearly R1b was settling europe and r1a was lollying around in the steppe.

    what about T1a in Karsdorf...........now that a turnup

    And even more interesting that this T1a was allmost as much Yamna like as CW is.

    Makes me wonder if this was not a very early Yamna dude who has reached mainland Europe before the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The ADMIXTURE graph is very odd. Maybe I don't understand well how ADMIXTURE works but at K=20 all WHG seems to disappear from current day European population and looks like being replaced by Yamnaya/EHG ancestry. That, we can proof is wrong. You see, all LN cultures that followed Corded Ware, in other words that followed the Yamnaya invasion, had substantial amount of the WHG (it's the grey part, which make up 100% of Swedish HG and also La Brana). So how could part not pop up in current day Europeans?

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/013433-1.pdf


    EDIT: Furthermore, Stuttgart is very odd in K=20. She has mostly EHG/Yamnaya admixture and a tad Caucasian.

    Wait what? When I look at the graphs. groups such as the Lithuanians with ~50% have suddenly only ~25% WHG while the rest gets eaten up by Yamna.

    Doesn't seem to me so odd at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Caucaso-Gedrosian component among R1b (Yamnaya & Anatolian folks) is not from the Balkans, or is it? R1b-Z2103 is full of Caucaso-Gedrosian component, what means it's NATIVE to Anatolia!
    Goga R1b Z2103 has different branches CTS 7822 some not found around Kurdish region unlike L584 and L277 and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
    http://www.nature.com/news/americas-...-roots-1.14213

    [IMG][/QUOTE][/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Goga R1b Z2103 has different branches CTS 7822 some not found around Kurdish region unlike L584 and L277 and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
    http://www.nature.com/news/americas-...-roots-1.14213

    I think it is from Azerbaijan (NorthWest Iran) where Leyla-Tepe is located. R1b-Z2103 could enter the Balkans through Greece from Western Turkey. My friend, I never said that R1b-Z2103 is from Kurdish region, I think it's from south of the Caspian Sea, Iranian Azerbaijan region...

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    From the data we have it appears like Yamna was

    closest to

    1. Mordovians
    2. Lezgins

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    and also remember earliest sample of basal R** is Malta somewhere in North are ancestors come from R1a R1b
    Yeah, R* has somewhere from the same region where also Q* is evolved, homeland of Y-DNA hg. P. But this happened a long, long time ago..

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    Goga there was a R1a among the Yamna in the forrest zone.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    From the data we have it appears like Yamna was

    closest to

    1. Mordovians
    2. Lezgins/Russians
    Lezgins are not ethnic Russians. Lezgians are North Caucasian people and live close to Azerbaijan (Caspian Sea), they are related to Adygea, Chechens, Dagestanians, Circassians etc. Capital of the Republic of Adygea is called Maykop !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Goga there was a R1a among the Yamna in the forrest zone.
    Yes, why not? But the question is, was it ancestral to R1a-Z93? There are many different R1a, like there're many different R1b. Before Makop/Yamnaya forest zone was NEVER Indo-European...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, Yamnaya is indeed R1b and R1a is probably forest steppe. No wonder they waffled and said that Corded Ware was 75% of a population "related" to Yamnaya. Not only that, but Yamnaya is R1b M-269. The Samara hunter gatherer is earlier R1b. That's more of a surprise.

    What's really interesting is that at the same time they have found an R1b1 among early Neolithic samples from Spain. If M-269 is on the steppe then is "modern" European R1b Yamnaya derived and the R1b1 from Spain was a dead end?

    Did R1b really have that big a range, or did the earliest clades just straddle the whole Caucasus area, and so some of it got picked up in the Neolithic migrations?

    A related question is what's the source of the "Near Eastern" ancestry?

    I better get back to reading. Just wanted to give everybody a head's up, although Motzart beat me to it.
    I think part of the R1b story is related to copper miners / smiths so they may have had a much larger range as minority artisans along trade routes than they had as full populations.

    In which case if there was any dramatic demographic impact along the Atlantic coast it may have been due to that region's relative under population at the time.

    (Just one of my theories but personally I wonder if part of what we think of as "near eastern" actually comes from central Asia i.e. I wonder if there was a metal age demographic transition there as well.)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Wait what? When I look at the graphs. groups such as the Lithuanians with ~50% have suddenly only ~25% WHG while the rest gets eaten up by Yamna.

    Doesn't seem to me so odd at all.
    But it doesn't seem to be eaten up by Yamna. It is clearly visible in Bell Beaker and other post Corded Ware cultures. Hell, it is even visible in Yamna itself!

    And the 25% you see there at the Lithuanians is EEF, which is orange, not WHG, which is grey.

    EDIT: To be fair, if you zoom in, there is a tiny bit among two Lithuanians and one Ukranian and quite some in one single Unkranian sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    But it doesn't seem to be eaten up by Yamna. It is clearly visible in Bell Beaker and other post Corded Ware cultures. Hell, it is even visible in Yamna itself!

    And the 25% you see there at the Lithuanians is EEF, which is orange, not WHG, which is grey.

    I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
    If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
    Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
    And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
    You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
    So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
    EDIT:
    I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
    Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
    Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.

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    Acoording to the table on page 26, Yamnaya are closest to:

    1-Mordovian 0.018
    2-Lezgian/Russian 0.019
    3- Czech/Belarusian/Estonian/Hungarian/Icelandic 0.020
    4-Norwegian/English 0.021
    5-Croatian/French/Lithuanian/Orcadian 0.022
    6- Bulgarian 0.023
    7- Greek/Turkish 0.026
    8-Spanish 0.027
    9- Sindhi/Bergamo 0.028
    10- Armenian/Sicilian 0.030
    11- Basque 0.034

    Unfortunately no other North Caucasians on the list for comparison. Some one wrote this somewhere else.
    Based on the data we have from West Eurasia K8, I think it would be fair to say that Iranians and Kurds would be placed between Lezgians and Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
    If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
    Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
    And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
    You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
    So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
    EDIT:
    I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
    Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
    Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.
    Keep in mind the samples are very regional.(actually from the same valley) We can be sure to find allot of different Haplogroups in other regions and with rising numbers of samples R1a might even take the lead.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

    Yes, that is exactly what I mean. WHG in step 20 of the ADMIXTURE-run add a WHG component, possibly defined by Moto;a, Swedish HG's and la Brana: All of them are 100% grey. A Hungarian HG too. However, if you look at the ADMIXTURE run some more you'll find that Stuttgart has EHG and Caucasian, but hardly any WHG. And Loschbourg, which is found in between Sweden
    and Spain all of a sudden has an EHG component.

    This is strange, isn't it?

    EDIT: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/013433-1.pdf
    Last edited by epoch; 11-02-15 at 18:21. Reason: add link to admixture card

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

    The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

    Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

    Sample
    Y-haplogroup
    Mt-haplogroup
    Location
    I0370 R1b-Z2103 H13a1a1 Ishkinovka, Orenburg
    I0429 R1b-Z2103 T2c1a2 Lopatino, Samara
    I0438 R1b-Z2103 U5a1a1 Luzhki, Samara
    I0439 R1b-P297 U5a1a1 Lopatino, Samara
    I0443 R1b-L23 W3a1a Lopatino, Samara
    I0444 R1b-Z2103 H6a1b Kutuluk, Samara


    Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

    I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.
    the R1b-P297 could be Z2103 as well, he tested L51-

    all 8 are 3300-2600 BC, long after the split of the Anatolian branch

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