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Thread: Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.

    I don't think it disproves it exactly although maybe nudges it a bit.

    Given the lowered sea levels I assume there was a lot of wetlands around both the Black and Caspian seas which could have led to large HG populations and a lot of contact across the water so initially the people living in those wetlands around the Black Sea (if that is correct) might have originally been one big population with the northern, steppe half developing into a separate PIE later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Yes, that is exactly what I mean. WHG in step 20 of the ADMIXTURE-run add a WHG component, possibly defined by Moto;a, Swedish HG's and la Brana: All of them are 100% grey. A Hungarian HG too. However, if you look at the ADMIXTURE run some more you'll find that Stuttgart has EHG and Caucasian, but hardly any WHG. And Loschbourg, which is found in between Sweden
    and Spain all of a sudden has an EHG component.

    This is strange, isn't it?
    reminds of the Thracian samples which some of them were 50% Caucasus Gedrosia like while some other 50% North European like.

    Since ANE and WHG have ultimately one source and are close relatives. What if these genes which appear in some Ks as Caucasus_Gedrosia (ANE) like and in some others WHG like is the proof that these genes are close to the source of both WHG and ANE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
    If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
    Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
    And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
    You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
    So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
    EDIT:
    I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
    Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
    Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.

    Very interesting.

    edit:

    I wonder if there was a sequence of source regions over time

    1st) regions that developed agriculture (or just pastoralism)

    2nd) regions that had copper deposits

    3rd) regions with arsenic-copper or copper & tin

    4th) regions with iron deposits

    so there was an ebb or flow as the source regions switched over time

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    @Alan

    According to your graph Benzingerode should have *no* WHG admixture. However, according to ADMIXTURE it should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

    The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

    Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

    Sample
    Y-haplogroup
    Mt-haplogroup
    Location
    I0370 R1b-Z2103 H13a1a1 Ishkinovka, Orenburg
    I0429 R1b-Z2103 T2c1a2 Lopatino, Samara
    I0438 R1b-Z2103 U5a1a1 Luzhki, Samara
    I0439 R1b-P297 U5a1a1 Lopatino, Samara
    I0443 R1b-L23 W3a1a Lopatino, Samara
    I0444 R1b-Z2103 H6a1b Kutuluk, Samara


    Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

    I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.
    whats you opinion then, that in the chart , karlsdorf is second only to corded ware for Yamnya ( and worst for early neolithic ) and yet this T1a ( with his H1 mtdna ) is part of this group
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    This thread is very interesting but what I do not understand is why R1B is at such high rates in British Isles and Western Europe ,while is at lower rates in South Italy,in Balkans,in Eastern Europe.
    And if you look,is clear that even Vikings were bearing R1B,if you take Scandinavia,South Sweden,South Norway,Denmark,Iceland all have a significant percentage of R1B,but as you move to Finland,the percentage of R1B suddenly decrease.
    And in the areas that Vikings raided,is hard to tell the R1B brought by them,since people bearing same R1B were already present,but that does not mean Vikings did not brought R1B also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    @Alan

    According to your graph Benzingerode should have *no* WHG admixture. However, according to ADMIXTURE it should.

    Thats why I said some of the WHG gets probably eaten up by Yamna. Most likely explanation is, that their WHG was brought to them via Yamna. I am also very convinced that 1/3of the ENF geats eaten up by Yamna. I correct my former figures of Yamna to 40/35/25 ENF/ANE/WHG.

    But something else. Hasn't anyone of you realized that the Neolithic T1a* sample is almost as much Yamna as CW is?
    What if this T1a guy was actually Indo European who arrived in mainland Europe earlier than the major Indo European migration?
    Last edited by Alan; 11-02-15 at 19:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    reminds of the Thracian samples which some of them were 50% Caucasus Gedrosia like while some other 50% North European like.

    Since ANE and WHG have ultimately one source and are close relatives. What if these genes which appear in some Ks as Caucasus_Gedrosia (ANE) like and in some others WHG like is the proof that these genes are close to the source of both WHG and ANE?
    I reckon too it's because of the close relatedness. Possibly the software doesn't handle it all that well. Any idea how ADMIXTURE tries to determine admixtures? Would it skew results if two of the admixtures are far closer related than all others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    And even more interesting that this T1a was allmost as much Yamna like as CW is.

    Makes me wonder if this was not a very early Yamna dude who has reached mainland Europe before the other.
    yes, the karlsdorf is the worst for early neolithic plus this T1a1 had very ancient H1 as his mtdna

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    I know that some Finns will get upset about this,but check this interesting theory about the name of Sami which could also be related to the name of Finland:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Etymologies
    ...
    "The first known historical mention of the Sami, naming them Fenni, was by Tacitus, about 98 A.D.[13] Variants of Finn or Fenni were in wide use in ancient times, judging from the names Fenni and Phinnoi in classical Roman and Greek works. Finn (or variants, such as skridfinn, "striding Finn") was the name originally used by Norse speakers (and their proto-Norse speaking ancestors) to refer to the Sami, as attested in the Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries). The etymology is somewhat uncertain, but the consensus seems to be that it is related to Old Norse finna, from proto-Germanic *finthanan ("to find"),[14] the logic being that the Sami, as hunter-gatherers "found" their food, rather than grew it. It has been suggested, however, that it may originally have been a more general term for "northern hunter gatherers", rather than referring exclusively to the Sami, which may explain why two Swedish runestones from the 11th century apparently refer to what is now southwestern Finland as Finland. Note that in Finnish, Finns (inhabitants of Finland) do not refer to themselves as Finns. As Old Norse gradually developed into the separate Scandinavian languages, Swedes apparently took to using Finn exclusively to refer to inhabitants of Finland, while Sami came to be called Lapps. In Norway, however, Sami were still called Finns at least until the modern era (reflected in toponyms like Finnmark, Finnsnes, Finnfjord and Finnøy) and some Northern Norwegians will still occasionally use Finn to refer to Sami people, although the Sami themselves now consider this to be a pejorative term."
    .....
    According to the history,Vikings were not only raiding,but they were raising animals (goats,pigs,etc) ,fishing and even practice agriculture.
    Think that Scandinavia is good example of how Indo-European speaking population interacted with native population,here we have Northern Germans (Vikings) interacting with native Fino-Ugric people,which included also Sami people.

    Here some archeological proof,that Vikings were practicing agriculture 1000 years ago,even in Greenland:
    http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Thats why I said some of the WHG gets probably eaten up by Yamna. Most likely explanation is, that their WHG was brought to them via Yamna. I am also very convinced that 1/3of the ENF geats eaten up by Yamna.

    But something else. Hasn't anyone of you realized that the Neolithic T1a* sample is almost as much Yamna as CW is?
    What if this T1a guy was actually Indo European who arrived in mainland Europe earlier than the major Indo European migration?
    semagyl the russian site, which uses only 67 markers or above , has TL-P326 only in the caucasus ( north and south ). and P326 is the SNP which pre-dates the T and L haplogroup split........

    maybe someone should seperate all the haplogroups from the paper into seperate groups by the chart represented also in the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    This thread is very interesting but what I do not understand is why R1B is at such high rates in British Isles and Western Europe ,while is at lower rates in South Italy,in Balkans,in Eastern Europe.
    If there was a relatively under populated gap to the west of LBK

    http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/...517_thumb1.jpg

    then if they had some advantage that made it possible for them to thrive in that gap they could have expanded rapidly to fill it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Caucaso-Gedrosian component among R1b (Yamnaya & Anatolian folks) is not from the Balkans, or is it? R1b-Z2103 is full of Caucaso-Gedrosian component, what means it's NATIVE to Anatolia!
    Don't misunderstand me. I have always said that R1b came from West Asia, and even domesticated cattle there before moving to the Pontic Steppe. But that was R1b-P297 or M269, not Z2103, which appeared in the steppe then migrated back to Anatolia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

    So, are we to believe that modern Norwegians have more Yamnaya and less WHG than modern Belarusians and Ukranians and that modern Tuscans have zero WHG? That doesn't make any sense to me. The more I see of these kinds of charts, the more I think they're often misleading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the R1b-P297 could be Z2103 as well, he tested L51-

    all 8 are 3300-2600 BC, long after the split of the Anatolian branch
    Then it means that the original Anatolian branch wasn't Z2103, but P297*, M269* or L23*. Perhaps it is the Cimmerians, the Sarmatians or even the European Scythians who brought Z2103 to the Balkans and Anatolia much later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    whats you opinion then, that in the chart , karlsdorf is second only to corded ware for Yamnya ( and worst for early neolithic ) and yet this T1a ( with his H1 mtdna ) is part of this group
    If you remember I mentioned that the Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't just R1a and R1b, but also carried minority lineages like G2a3b1, J2b2 and T1a. I am fairly confident that G2a3b1 and J2b2 came to the Steppe from the Balkans/Carpathians during the Chalcolithic (Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk, etc.). However I am still unsure regarding T1a, as it is far more common in northern Mesopotamia and the southeast Caucasus than in southeast Europe. My hypothesis has been that T1a came to the steppe as a minority lineage accompanying R1b from West Asia. If that is the case, then we could expect to find some distant similarities, like some West Asian (Caucaso-Gedrosian) admixture in both Neolithic European T1a and Yamna T1a as they originally hailed from the same region.

    The mtDNA H1 just shows that T1a men married Mesolithic European women.

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    Well Maciamo and how can you explain the distribution of R1B if it came from West Asia through Pontic Steppe,in Europe,compared with how R1B is in current day Europe?
    Romans,Germanics,Celts,all bearers of mainly R1B branches were all great warriors,why is no more R1B in Eastern Europe?
    If you look at the distribution of R1B,taking Germanic speaking countries it rather seems that they have came from Northern Europe and spread towards South East Europe,for example in Austria there still is a high percentage of R1B and in the same time the South Eastern border of Germanic speakers .
    I am not saying that R1B people did not came through Pontic Steppes into Europe,I am just finding hard to believe this,considering the current distribution of R1b in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So, are we to believe that modern Norwegians have more Yamnaya and less WHG than modern Belarusians and Ukranians and that modern Tuscans have zero WHG? That doesn't make any sense to me. The more I see of these kinds of charts, the more I think they're often misleading.
    I think is correct.
    I do not see Finns,in this graph,I think they have even more HG than Estonians.
    Would be even more interesting to see some genetic testing of ancient Norwegian vikings,how much Yamnaya they were having.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I know that some Finns will get upset about this,but check this interesting theory about the name of Sami which could also be related to the name of Finland:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Etymologies
    ...
    "The first known historical mention of the Sami, naming them Fenni, was by Tacitus, about 98 A.D.[13] Variants of Finn or Fenni were in wide use in ancient times, judging from the names Fenni and Phinnoi in classical Roman and Greek works. Finn (or variants, such as skridfinn, "striding Finn") was the name originally used by Norse speakers (and their proto-Norse speaking ancestors) to refer to the Sami, as attested in the Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries). The etymology is somewhat uncertain, but the consensus seems to be that it is related to Old Norse finna, from proto-Germanic *finthanan ("to find"),[14] the logic being that the Sami, as hunter-gatherers "found" their food, rather than grew it. It has been suggested, however, that it may originally have been a more general term for "northern hunter gatherers", rather than referring exclusively to the Sami, which may explain why two Swedish runestones from the 11th century apparently refer to what is now southwestern Finland as Finland. Note that in Finnish, Finns (inhabitants of Finland) do not refer to themselves as Finns. As Old Norse gradually developed into the separate Scandinavian languages, Swedes apparently took to using Finn exclusively to refer to inhabitants of Finland, while Sami came to be called Lapps. In Norway, however, Sami were still called Finns at least until the modern era (reflected in toponyms like Finnmark, Finnsnes, Finnfjord and Finnøy) and some Northern Norwegians will still occasionally use Finn to refer to Sami people, although the Sami themselves now consider this to be a pejorative term."
    .....
    According to the history,Vikings were not only raiding,but they were raising animals (goats,pigs,etc) ,fishing and even practice agriculture.
    Think that Scandinavia is good example of how Indo-European speaking population interacted with native population,here we have Northern Germans (Vikings) interacting with native Fino-Ugric people,which included also Sami people.

    Here some archeological proof,that Vikings were practicing agriculture 1000 years ago,even in Greenland:
    http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland

    I don't know why the Finns would be upset about that. It's well known that Finnish and Saami languages are closely related (Finno-Samic family) and the two peoples split from one another fairly recently (about 3000 years ago according to Honkola et al. 2013).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So, are we to believe that modern Norwegians have more Yamnaya and less WHG than modern Belarusians and Ukranians and that modern Tuscans have zero WHG? That doesn't make any sense to me. The more I see of these kinds of charts, the more I think they're often misleading.
    No it simply means large majorty of Tuscan WHG came via Yamna while most WHG in Belarusians and Ukrainians is of pre Yamna origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Then it means that the original Anatolian branch wasn't Z2103, but P297*, M269* or L23*. Perhaps it is the Cimmerians, the Sarmatians or even the European Scythians who brought Z2103 to the Balkans and Anatolia much later.
    Among the original West Asian R1b was certanly m343, m269 and l23* three which are at least found among Kurds there. l23 is very common among Assyrians and Armenians but they seem to lack m343 and m269.
    Last edited by Alan; 17-02-15 at 10:18.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So, are we to believe that modern Norwegians have more Yamnaya and less WHG than modern Belarusians and Ukranians and that modern Tuscans have zero WHG? That doesn't make any sense to me. The more I see of these kinds of charts, the more I think they're often misleading.
    Norwegians have a higher combined percentage of R1a + R1b than Belarussians and Ukrainians. Plenty of Central Asians invaded eastern Europe over the last 5000 years, almost completely eliminating R1b in the region. I explained 5 years ago that this was why R1b was so low today in its original homeland.

    The huge Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture didn't just vanish in thin air. They were gradually absorbed by PIE people (probably already since the Globular Amphora culture). Don't forget that Cucuteni-Trypillian towns were the largest in the world at the time. That explains the very significant percentage of both male and female Near Eastern lineages in western Ukraine and southern Belarus today.

    Additionally, Ukrainians also have partial Greek ancestry in the south (lots of J2a).

    It is especially northern Belarus and eastern Ukraine that are very high in R1a, and that is just a sign of higher recent Slavic ancestry, not a sign of more surviving Yamna ancestry. The Slavic branch descends from the Corded Ware and Abashevo cultures, not from Yamna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If you remember I mentioned that the Proto-Indo-Europeans weren't just R1a and R1b, but also carried minority lineages like G2a3b1, J2b2 and T1a. I am fairly confident that G2a3b1 and J2b2 came to the Steppe from the Balkans/Carpathians during the Chalcolithic (Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk, etc.). However I am still unsure regarding T1a, as it is far more common in northern Mesopotamia and the southeast Caucasus than in southeast Europe. My hypothesis has been that T1a came to the steppe as a minority lineage accompanying R1b from West Asia. If that is the case, then we could expect to find some distant similarities, like some West Asian (Caucaso-Gedrosian) admixture in both Neolithic European T1a and Yamna T1a as they originally hailed from the same region.

    The mtDNA H1 just shows that T1a men married Mesolithic European women.

    I would add to J2b, or replace it with J2a. Since J2a is actually the one Haplgroup found in Bronze Age Hungary sample which was French like and since we know French are among the groups with strong affinity to Yamna...

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    So is the theory, stating that the Bell Beakers originated in Portugal, now bunk? Or is there any doubt that the Beakers were R1B?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone View Post
    So is the theory, stating that the Bell Beakers originated in Portugal, now bunk? Or is there any doubt that the Beakers were R1B?
    Seems like Bell beakers originated in Central Europe?

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