Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

From the data we have it appears like Yamna was

closest to

1. Mordovians
2. Lezgins/Russians
Lezgins are not ethnic Russians. Lezgians are North Caucasian people and live close to Azerbaijan (Caspian Sea), they are related to Adygea, Chechens, Dagestanians, Circassians etc. Capital of the Republic of Adygea is called Maykop !!!
 
Goga there was a R1a among the Yamna in the forrest zone.
Yes, why not? But the question is, was it ancestral to R1a-Z93? There are many different R1a, like there're many different R1b. Before Makop/Yamnaya forest zone was NEVER Indo-European...
 
So, Yamnaya is indeed R1b and R1a is probably forest steppe. No wonder they waffled and said that Corded Ware was 75% of a population "related" to Yamnaya. Not only that, but Yamnaya is R1b M-269. The Samara hunter gatherer is earlier R1b. That's more of a surprise.

What's really interesting is that at the same time they have found an R1b1 among early Neolithic samples from Spain. If M-269 is on the steppe then is "modern" European R1b Yamnaya derived and the R1b1 from Spain was a dead end?

Did R1b really have that big a range, or did the earliest clades just straddle the whole Caucasus area, and so some of it got picked up in the Neolithic migrations?

A related question is what's the source of the "Near Eastern" ancestry?

I better get back to reading. Just wanted to give everybody a head's up, although Motzart beat me to it.

I think part of the R1b story is related to copper miners / smiths so they may have had a much larger range as minority artisans along trade routes than they had as full populations.

In which case if there was any dramatic demographic impact along the Atlantic coast it may have been due to that region's relative under population at the time.

(Just one of my theories but personally I wonder if part of what we think of as "near eastern" actually comes from central Asia i.e. I wonder if there was a metal age demographic transition there as well.)
 
Wait what? When I look at the graphs. groups such as the Lithuanians with ~50% have suddenly only ~25% WHG while the rest gets eaten up by Yamna.

Doesn't seem to me so odd at all.

But it doesn't seem to be eaten up by Yamna. It is clearly visible in Bell Beaker and other post Corded Ware cultures. Hell, it is even visible in Yamna itself!

And the 25% you see there at the Lithuanians is EEF, which is orange, not WHG, which is grey.

EDIT: To be fair, if you zoom in, there is a tiny bit among two Lithuanians and one Ukranian and quite some in one single Unkranian sample.
 
But it doesn't seem to be eaten up by Yamna. It is clearly visible in Bell Beaker and other post Corded Ware cultures. Hell, it is even visible in Yamna itself!

And the 25% you see there at the Lithuanians is EEF, which is orange, not WHG, which is grey.


I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg
 
A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
EDIT:
I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.
 
Acoording to the table on page 26, Yamnaya are closest to:

1-Mordovian 0.018
2-Lezgian/Russian 0.019
3- Czech/Belarusian/Estonian/Hungarian/Icelandic 0.020
4-Norwegian/English 0.021
5-Croatian/French/Lithuanian/Orcadian 0.022
6- Bulgarian 0.023
7- Greek/Turkish 0.026
8-Spanish 0.027
9- Sindhi/Bergamo 0.028
10- Armenian/Sicilian 0.030
11- Basque 0.034

Unfortunately no other North Caucasians on the list for comparison. Some one wrote this somewhere else.
Based on the data we have from West Eurasia K8, I think it would be fair to say that Iranians and Kurds would be placed between Lezgians and Turks.
 
A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
EDIT:
I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.

Keep in mind the samples are very regional.(actually from the same valley) We can be sure to find allot of different Haplogroups in other regions and with rising numbers of samples R1a might even take the lead.
 
I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. WHG in step 20 of the ADMIXTURE-run add a WHG component, possibly defined by Moto;a, Swedish HG's and la Brana: All of them are 100% grey. A Hungarian HG too. However, if you look at the ADMIXTURE run some more you'll find that Stuttgart has EHG and Caucasian, but hardly any WHG. And Loschbourg, which is found in between Sweden
and Spain all of a sudden has an EHG component.

This is strange, isn't it?

EDIT: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf
 
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I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

Sample
Y-haplogroup
Mt-haplogroup
Location
I0370R1b-Z2103H13a1a1Ishkinovka, Orenburg
I0429R1b-Z2103T2c1a2Lopatino, Samara
I0438R1b-Z2103U5a1a1Luzhki, Samara
I0439R1b-P297U5a1a1Lopatino, Samara
I0443R1b-L23W3a1aLopatino, Samara
I0444R1b-Z2103H6a1bKutuluk, Samara


Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.

the R1b-P297 could be Z2103 as well, he tested L51-

all 8 are 3300-2600 BC, long after the split of the Anatolian branch
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't R1B in the Mesolithic Samara HG disprove the theory of an Armenian homeland for IE? The Yamnaya have the Ydna of hunter gatherers and it seems they invaded the Armenian highlands and not the other way around? I don't profess to know anything. Just asking questions.


I don't think it disproves it exactly although maybe nudges it a bit.

Given the lowered sea levels I assume there was a lot of wetlands around both the Black and Caspian seas which could have led to large HG populations and a lot of contact across the water so initially the people living in those wetlands around the Black Sea (if that is correct) might have originally been one big population with the northern, steppe half developing into a separate PIE later.
 
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. WHG in step 20 of the ADMIXTURE-run add a WHG component, possibly defined by Moto;a, Swedish HG's and la Brana: All of them are 100% grey. A Hungarian HG too. However, if you look at the ADMIXTURE run some more you'll find that Stuttgart has EHG and Caucasian, but hardly any WHG. And Loschbourg, which is found in between Sweden
and Spain all of a sudden has an EHG component.

This is strange, isn't it?

reminds of the Thracian samples which some of them were 50% Caucasus Gedrosia like while some other 50% North European like.

Since ANE and WHG have ultimately one source and are close relatives. What if these genes which appear in some Ks as Caucasus_Gedrosia (ANE) like and in some others WHG like is the proof that these genes are close to the source of both WHG and ANE?
 
A very interesting folk belief in Romania is that the blacksmiths were mostly red-haired people.
If I do remember right,R1B was associated with bringing the metal working in Europe and is pretty likely they also brought red hair genes in Europe.
Maybe there were more waves of migrations from the steppes and R1B bearers,which came later than R1A brought a more advanced technology,like metal working.
And they conquered whole West Europe,including Italy.
You see a very strange thing in Italy, Italy has R1B as dominant paternal line,but in Sardinia,some I2 branch is the dominant branch.
So that place,being a more isolated place,kept from old I2 lines.
EDIT:
I doubt R1B people were carrying hunter gatherer admixture.
Their very advanced technical skills gave them much better possibilities to earn their living,than gathering or hunting.
Think they were making trade,raising cattle,practicing agriculture,raiding other people to earn their living.


Very interesting.

edit:

I wonder if there was a sequence of source regions over time

1st) regions that developed agriculture (or just pastoralism)

2nd) regions that had copper deposits

3rd) regions with arsenic-copper or copper & tin

4th) regions with iron deposits

so there was an ebb or flow as the source regions switched over time
 
@Alan

According to your graph Benzingerode should have *no* WHG admixture. However, according to ADMIXTURE it should.
 
I had a quick look at the paper and I am glad to see that a T1a individual was found in the LBK culture, confirming what I had said for years : the Near Eastern Neolithic farmers were predominantly G2a but with J1 and T1a minorities (+ R1b-V88 in North Africa and Iberia).

The biggest surprise so far is that 4 out of 6 Yamna men tested belonged to the Balkano-Anatolian R1b-Z2103 (the other two were P297 and L23). This may simply be because they are all from the Volga-Ural region. They would therefore have been among the last to move to the Balkans. In contrast, western Yamna people from southern Ukraine would have been the first to move out of the steppe, and that should in theory be where the ancestors of modern Western Europeans came from.

Here is a table showing the mtDNA of the six R1b Yamna men.

Sample
Y-haplogroup
Mt-haplogroup
Location
I0370R1b-Z2103H13a1a1Ishkinovka, Orenburg
I0429R1b-Z2103T2c1a2Lopatino, Samara
I0438R1b-Z2103U5a1a1Luzhki, Samara
I0439R1b-P297U5a1a1Lopatino, Samara
I0443R1b-L23W3a1aLopatino, Samara
I0444R1b-Z2103H6a1bKutuluk, Samara


Female Yamna samples belonged to H2b, K1b2a, U4a1 and W6c.

I had specifically associated H6, U4a1, U5a1a1, W3 and W6 as being of Indo-European origin.

whats you opinion then, that in the chart , karlsdorf is second only to corded ware for Yamnya ( and worst for early neolithic ) and yet this T1a ( with his H1 mtdna ) is part of this group
 
This thread is very interesting but what I do not understand is why R1B is at such high rates in British Isles and Western Europe ,while is at lower rates in South Italy,in Balkans,in Eastern Europe.
And if you look,is clear that even Vikings were bearing R1B,if you take Scandinavia,South Sweden,South Norway,Denmark,Iceland all have a significant percentage of R1B,but as you move to Finland,the percentage of R1B suddenly decrease.
And in the areas that Vikings raided,is hard to tell the R1B brought by them,since people bearing same R1B were already present,but that does not mean Vikings did not brought R1B also.
 
@Alan

According to your graph Benzingerode should have *no* WHG admixture. However, according to ADMIXTURE it should.


Thats why I said some of the WHG gets probably eaten up by Yamna. Most likely explanation is, that their WHG was brought to them via Yamna. I am also very convinced that 1/3of the ENF geats eaten up by Yamna. I correct my former figures of Yamna to 40/35/25 ENF/ANE/WHG.

But something else. Hasn't anyone of you realized that the Neolithic T1a* sample is almost as much Yamna as CW is?
What if this T1a guy was actually Indo European who arrived in mainland Europe earlier than the major Indo European migration?
 
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reminds of the Thracian samples which some of them were 50% Caucasus Gedrosia like while some other 50% North European like.

Since ANE and WHG have ultimately one source and are close relatives. What if these genes which appear in some Ks as Caucasus_Gedrosia (ANE) like and in some others WHG like is the proof that these genes are close to the source of both WHG and ANE?

I reckon too it's because of the close relatedness. Possibly the software doesn't handle it all that well. Any idea how ADMIXTURE tries to determine admixtures? Would it skew results if two of the admixtures are far closer related than all others?
 
And even more interesting that this T1a was allmost as much Yamna like as CW is.

Makes me wonder if this was not a very early Yamna dude who has reached mainland Europe before the other.

yes, the karlsdorf is the worst for early neolithic plus this T1a1 had very ancient H1 as his mtdna
 
I know that some Finns will get upset about this,but check this interesting theory about the name of Sami which could also be related to the name of Finland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Etymologies
...
"The first known historical mention of the Sami, naming them Fenni, was by Tacitus, about 98 A.D.[13] Variants of Finn or Fenni were in wide use in ancient times, judging from the names Fenni and Phinnoi in classical Roman and Greek works. Finn (or variants, such as skridfinn, "striding Finn") was the name originally used by Norse speakers (and their proto-Norse speaking ancestors) to refer to the Sami, as attested in the Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries). The etymology is somewhat uncertain, but the consensus seems to be that it is related to Old Norse finna, from proto-Germanic *finthanan ("to find"),[14] the logic being that the Sami, as hunter-gatherers "found" their food, rather than grew it. It has been suggested, however, that it may originally have been a more general term for "northern hunter gatherers", rather than referring exclusively to the Sami, which may explain why two Swedish runestones from the 11th century apparently refer to what is now southwestern Finland as Finland. Note that in Finnish, Finns (inhabitants of Finland) do not refer to themselves as Finns. As Old Norse gradually developed into the separate Scandinavian languages, Swedes apparently took to using Finn exclusively to refer to inhabitants of Finland, while Sami came to be called Lapps. In Norway, however, Sami were still called Finns at least until the modern era (reflected in toponyms like Finnmark, Finnsnes, Finnfjord and Finnøy) and some Northern Norwegians will still occasionally use Finn to refer to Sami people, although the Sami themselves now consider this to be a pejorative term."
.....
According to the history,Vikings were not only raiding,but they were raising animals (goats,pigs,etc) ,fishing and even practice agriculture.
Think that Scandinavia is good example of how Indo-European speaking population interacted with native population,here we have Northern Germans (Vikings) interacting with native Fino-Ugric people,which included also Sami people.

Here some archeological proof,that Vikings were practicing agriculture 1000 years ago,even in Greenland:
http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland
 

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