Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

[Aberdeen]

you missed oetzi on your map...........exactly same time frame as the G2a in germany ( on your map )

He also missed the four Corded Ware samples from Poland (Neolithic looking) and Germany (R1a) and the three Bell Beaker R1b samples from Germany. Including those samples might have complicated things - the two oldest and most easterly CW samples weren't R1a.

 

[Tomenable]

No, Z93 is from R1a-S224

Entire S224 (including Z93) is from M417:

 

[Aberdeen]

I considered adding Oetzi as well. But Corded Ware is too late for that map.

Anyway - you can find this data here (they also already added these new samples from Haak 2015):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

They have aDNA divided into chronological categories, for example:

Mesolithic aDNA
European Neolithic aDNA
Copper-Bronze Age aDNA

Oetzi and Corded Ware are included in "Copper-Bronze Age aDNA".

I added to my map only those from Neolithic and Mesolithic aDNA.

Should I add also Oetzi to the map ???

Sorry - I wasn't thinking about the dates and categories of the finds when I made that comment - call it a mental glitch. And now that I am thinking about Neolithic versus Copper Age, I think Oetzi's copper axe justifies putting him in the Copper Age category, rather than the Neolithic.

 

[Tomenable]

Native people of Europe were not Indo-European.

This is true for Northern and Central Europe. But in Eastern Europe we now have Mesolithic people with Indo-European haplogroups.

Adjust your views to these new findings. Take a look at my map of Stone Age haplogroups in Europe again:

No IE haplogroups in Western and Central Europe. But in Eastern Europe we have them, among native hunters of that area.

Saami in Northern Europe are native people of that region

According to most recent studies Saami are a mix of locals with immigrants from North-East Asia. So not entirely native.

 

[Fire Haired14]

This is true for Northern and Central Europe. But in Eastern Europe we now have Mesolithic people with Indo-European haplogroups.

Adjust your views to these new findings. Take a look at my map of Stone Age haplogroups in Europe again:

No IE haplogroups in Western and Central Europe. But in Eastern Europe we have them, among native hunters of that area.



According to most recent studies Saami are a mix of locals with immigrants from North-East Asia. So not entirely native.

Where did you hear the Mesolithic R1b from Samara was R1b1a-P297+. It didn't say that in the paper. If it does that's huge news because it makes it ancestral to M73 and M269.

 

[LeBrok]

More like 30/30/40 ANE/WHG/EEF

According to the paper the Karelians were 60% WHG and 40% ANE. The Near Eastern portion of Yamna was also ANE rich.

If we now half the 60% WHG we get 30. And since we know the Near Eastern portion was also ANE rich, and they called them "Armenian like" (who have 15% ANE), we can assume 30% WHG also. And the rest was most likely ENF.

Otherwise they couldn't be closest to Moravians and Lezgins who both have significant percentage of ENF (Lezgins more and Mordovians less).

I still don't get why you give them such ingh EEF admixture. According to Figuer 2 they so much autosomally closer to Mal'ta boy MM1 and pure ANE than to Neolithic Farmers of Europe. Yamnaya guys are very close and alike the two EHG samples. Some of Yamnaya are very close to ANE source, and some stretched towards EEF, but not far enough. Note that the grey dots from the background are the location of modern population on the chart. Even Corded Ware individuals don't touch the first grey dots, which represent modern Russians and Finns having almost 30% of EEF. From this chart I would guess that Corded Ware were about 20% EEF and Yamnaya at 10%, EEF some of them much less (the sampled region of Yamnaya).




I'm still yet to read most of the paper. Could you post numbers for pages you are taking your numbers from, please.

 

[LeBrok]

I finally found the explanation for the colours in the runs.

"The Early/Middle Neolithic European populations belong almost entirely to the “orange” ancestral
population from K=2 to K=8, while hunter-gatherers show a relationship to eastern non-Africans from
K=3 to K=8, consistent with sharing more genetic drift with these populations due to their lack of
“Basal Eurasian” ancestry2. From K=4 to K=6, the hunter-gatherers and late Neolithic/Bronze Age
(LN/BA) groups possess some of the “pink” component that is dominant in Native Americans; this
may reflect either the presence of west Eurasian-related “Ancient North Eurasian” ancestry in Native
Americans5 or of the same type of ancestry in European hunter-gatherers. An interesting pattern
occurs at K=8, with all the late LN/BA groups from central Europe and the Yamnaya having some of
the “light green” component that is lacking in earlier European farmers and hunter-gatherers; this
component is found at high frequencies in South Asian populations and its co-occurrence in late
Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans (but not earlier ones) and South Asians might reflect a degree of
common ancestry associated with late Neolithic migratory movements (e.g., the ~5,800-year old
TMRCA of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a-M417 suggests some gene flow affecting both Europe
and South Asia in this time frame11, although this date is subject to uncertainty due to poor estimates
of the human mutation rate.)
At K=9 a European hunter-gatherer ancestral population (“dark blue”) appears; this was not present in
an earlier analysis of the Human Origins modern populations and a much smaller number of ancient
individuals2. The inclusion of a large number of ancient hunter-gatherers has probably caused such an
ancestral population to appear in this analysis. European farmers now appear to be mixture of a Near
Eastern (orange) and European hunter-gatherer (dark blue) ancestral populations, with an increase in
the hunter-gatherer ancestry during the Middle Neolithic (reflecting the “resurgence” of such ancestry
shown in PCA, Fig. 2a) and also during the Late Neolithic. Note, also, the persistent presence of the
“light green” component that ties LN/EBA groups to South Asia between K=9 and K=15.
A similar
(darker green) component also distinguishes LN/EBA groups from earlier ones at K=16; this
component appears to be highly represented in groups from South Asia, the Near East, and the
Caucasus. The existence of this component may correspond to the evidence for “dilution” of EHG
ancestry in the Yamnaya (SI7), showing them to have evenly split ancestry between the “dark blue”
hunter-gatherer and “dark green” component; the analysis of SI9 also suggests an even split between
an EHG and a Near Eastern component in the ancestry of the Yamnaya. The “dark green” component
seems to have been carried from a Yamnaya-related population to the Corded Ware and other Late
Neolithic and Bronze Age populations of central Europe. A useful topic for future work is to study the
relationship of LN/BA populations to contemporary South Asians, Caucasian and Near Eastern
populations and to see if this affinity (in contrast to earlier Europeans) may be related to the dispersal
of Indo-European languages."

So orange colour is Early Neolithic EEF, almost like from Lazaridis runs. Blue is not WHG, but European Hunter Gatherer, which is sort of amalgamation of of WHG and ANE. Dark Green is something unusual. It persists in modern Caucasus and South Asians, and in 50% of Yamnaya. It was almost completely missing from Samara HG. It is shows also in LN/EBA sites all over Europe.

 

[Tomenable]

OK, I can see that our discussion got split into another thread - here it is:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30889-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-extended-discussion

 

[LeBrok]

View attachment 7077
So orange colour is Early Neolithic EEF, almost like from Lazaridis runs. Blue is not WHG, but European Hunter Gatherer, which is sort of amalgamation of of WHG and ANE. Dark Green is something unusual. It persists in modern Caucasus and South Asians, and in 50% of Yamnaya. It was almost completely missing from Samara HG. It is shows also in LN/EBA sites all over Europe.

Actually the dark green component was present in Samara HG at about 15% level (if my eyes are not deceiving me looking at this small column in the chart) and then grew to 50% in Yamnaya. I would guess that it was present not to far away feeding Yamnaya with time going by. Influence of population from Caucasus, like Maykop culture?

 

[Sile]

View attachment 7077
I finally found the explanation for the colours in the runs.

"The Early/Middle Neolithic European populations belong almost entirely to the “orange” ancestral
population from K=2 to K=8, while hunter-gatherers show a relationship to eastern non-Africans from
K=3 to K=8, consistent with sharing more genetic drift with these populations due to their lack of
“Basal Eurasian” ancestry2. From K=4 to K=6, the hunter-gatherers and late Neolithic/Bronze Age
(LN/BA) groups possess some of the “pink” component that is dominant in Native Americans; this
may reflect either the presence of west Eurasian-related “Ancient North Eurasian” ancestry in Native
Americans5 or of the same type of ancestry in European hunter-gatherers. An interesting pattern
occurs at K=8, with all the late LN/BA groups from central Europe and the Yamnaya having some of
the “light green” component that is lacking in earlier European farmers and hunter-gatherers; this
component is found at high frequencies in South Asian populations and its co-occurrence in late
Neolithic/Bronze Age Europeans (but not earlier ones) and South Asians might reflect a degree of
common ancestry associated with late Neolithic migratory movements (e.g., the ~5,800-year old
TMRCA of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a-M417 suggests some gene flow affecting both Europe
and South Asia in this time frame11, although this date is subject to uncertainty due to poor estimates
of the human mutation rate.)
At K=9 a European hunter-gatherer ancestral population (“dark blue”) appears; this was not present in
an earlier analysis of the Human Origins modern populations and a much smaller number of ancient
individuals2. The inclusion of a large number of ancient hunter-gatherers has probably caused such an
ancestral population to appear in this analysis. European farmers now appear to be mixture of a Near
Eastern (orange) and European hunter-gatherer (dark blue) ancestral populations, with an increase in
the hunter-gatherer ancestry during the Middle Neolithic (reflecting the “resurgence” of such ancestry
shown in PCA, Fig. 2a) and also during the Late Neolithic. Note, also, the persistent presence of the
“light green” component that ties LN/EBA groups to South Asia between K=9 and K=15.
A similar
(darker green) component also distinguishes LN/EBA groups from earlier ones at K=16; this
component appears to be highly represented in groups from South Asia, the Near East, and the
Caucasus. The existence of this component may correspond to the evidence for “dilution” of EHG
ancestry in the Yamnaya (SI7), showing them to have evenly split ancestry between the “dark blue”
hunter-gatherer and “dark green” component; the analysis of SI9 also suggests an even split between
an EHG and a Near Eastern component in the ancestry of the Yamnaya. The “dark green” component
seems to have been carried from a Yamnaya-related population to the Corded Ware and other Late
Neolithic and Bronze Age populations of central Europe. A useful topic for future work is to study the
relationship of LN/BA populations to contemporary South Asians, Caucasian and Near Eastern
populations and to see if this affinity (in contrast to earlier Europeans) may be related to the dispersal
of Indo-European languages."

So orange colour is Early Neolithic EEF, almost like from Lazaridis runs. Blue is not WHG, but European Hunter Gatherer, which is sort of amalgamation of of WHG and ANE. Dark Green is something unusual. It persists in modern Caucasus and South Asians, and in 50% of Yamnaya. It was almost completely missing from Samara HG. It is shows also in LN/EBA sites all over Europe.

Thanks

but the orange arrived in central europe before the EHG according to page 25 of the paper, did the blue and green populace mix in yamnya and then follow orange a thousand plus years later?

 

[Sile]

according to Manco, the plus 5000 year old T1a in central germany has mtdna H1bz, the only other H1bz in central Germany was found in 2013 ( brotherton ), speculating that T1a man was born in germany.
My theory is that the 2013 Hibz is the same one that the T1a has and that T1a brought this mtdna in central europe from yamnya

I have only found one other h1bz , who is from Norway

 

[Angela]

Actually the dark green component was present in Samara HG at about 15% level (if my eyes are not deceiving me looking at this small column in the chart) and then grew to 50% in Yamnaya. I would guess that it was present not to far away feeding Yamnaya with time going by. Influence of population from Caucasus, like Maykop culture?

That's the question...who brought it and when? Is it from farmers/pastoralists who entered the eastern part of the steppe 6000BC (some posters claim there is some archaeological evidence of such a movement, although I haven't seen a link to a paper), or did it arrive from over the Caucasus later on?

It's clear there's a lot of Near Eastern mtDna in Yamnaya, but how did it get there? Given the time period, women wouldn't have come over the Caucasus on their own...no Amazons, I'm afraid. So, either farmers/pastoralists of unknown yDna brought them, or steppe men went to get them, or there was some sort of asymmetrical bride exchange at the interface between two cultures.

The result is, as I posted above, that the authors can fit Yamnaya as:
52% Iraqui Jews + 48% Karelia
47% Armenian + 53% Karelia

What has to be kept in mind is that the non-ANE portion of these "Near Eastern" people would have been roughly the same as the non-WHG portion of the EEF European farmers.

 

[Angela]

Thanks

but the orange arrived in central europe before the EHG according to page 25 of the paper, did the blue and green populace mix in yamnya and then follow orange a thousand plus years later?

The "blue" component already existed in the first European farmers,as you can see in the chart and which we've known about since the Lazaridis paper.

 

[Sile]

The "blue" component already existed in the first European farmers,as you can see in the chart and which we've known about since the Lazaridis paper.

figure 3 ancient chart works with page 25

the orange is only LBK_EN ...these are all over 5000 years old

the blue is MN which is 3500 to 3900 years old

the LN is the mostly green with years 2200 to 2600 years old

the groups of this figure 3 ancients matches the page 25 under the title "pop label for analysis" or some use the title under group , it makes little difference


the motala is not used in that chart

 

[holderlin]

Mycenea also fell when the trojans fell.......they too can be sea peoples , even more so since identical burial mounds have been found in istria which are same as pellopenne mycenea.
As some state....are myceneans really greek or something else, is the Greek we know today only originate from dorians a NW greek people?

yes I believe R1b was hittitie and also hurrians ( NE of hittities ) with J2 and I

The BAC seems to be an upheaval of all power centers in the Aegean and Levant, super interesting. Most of what's been found in the ash layers of the Levantine cities seems to be Mycenaean Greek and/or European in origin. What's really interesting is that in some of these layers you also see what is believed to be among the first really effective slashing weapons (legit sword), which are central European in origin.

And yes we call the Mycenaeans the first "Greeks"

 

[Sile]

The BAC seems to be an upheaval of all power centers in the Aegean and Levant, super interesting. Most of what's been found in the ash layers of the Levantine cities seems to be Mycenaean Greek and/or European in origin. What's really interesting is that in some of these layers you also see what is believed to be among the first really effective slashing weapons (legit sword), which are central European in origin.

And yes we call the Mycenaeans the first "Greeks"

The myceneans are the same level of greek as the minoans:shy_scared:

 

[Fire Haired14]

I think you guys are putting to much emphasis on ADMIXTURE. F-statistics are the bread and butter of Haak 2015.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Actually the dark green component was present in Samara HG at about 15% level (if my eyes are not deceiving me looking at this small column in the chart) and then grew to 50% in Yamnaya. I would guess that it was present not to far away feeding Yamnaya with time going by. Influence of population from Caucasus, like Maykop culture?

maybe Maykop or some other Caucasus people
my first interpretation was different :
Maybe the 2 EHG samples crossed the caucasus much earlier (8000 years ago or earlier)
while the Yamnaya crossed the Caucasus later (maybe 6000 years ago) , and they catched the green 'Armenian-like' admixture south of the Caucasus

 

[Tomenable]

Please check my posts on pages 4 and 3 of the "extended discussion" thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ion-from-the-steppe-extended-discussion/page4

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ded-discussion?p=449880&viewfull=1#post449880

And CHECK ALSO this:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

R1 populations spread genes for light skin, blond hair and red hair

There is now strong evidence that both R1a and R1b people contributed to the diffusion of the A111T mutation of the SLC24A5, which explains apporximately 35% of skin tone difference between Europeans and Africans, and most variations within South Asia. The distribution pattern of the A111T allele (rs1426654) of matches almost perfectly the spread of Indo-European R1a and R1b lineages around Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. The mutation was probably passed on in the Early neolithic to other Near Eastern populations, which explains why Neolithic farmers in Europe already carried the A111T allele (e.g. Keller 2012 p.4, Lazaridis 2014 suppl. 7), although at lower frequency than modern Europeans and southern Central Asians.

The light skin allele is also found at a range of 15 to 30% in in various ethnic groups in northern sub-Saharan Africa, mostly in the Sahel and savannah zones inhabited by tribes of R1b-V88 cattle herders like the Fulani and the Hausa. This would presuppose that the A111T allele was already present among all R1b people before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic split between V88 and P297. R1a populations have an equally high incidence of this allele as R1b populations. On the other hand, the A111T mutation was absent from the 24,000-year-old R* sample from Siberia, and is absent from most modern R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia. Consequently, it can be safely assumed that the mutation arose among the R1* lineage during the late Upper Paleolithic, probably some time between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago.

Fair hair was another physical trait associated with the Indo-Europeans. In contrast, the genes for blue eyes were already present among Mesolithic Europeans belonging to Y-haplogroup I. The genes for blond hair are more strongly correlated with the distribution of haplogroup R1a, but those for red hair have not been found in Europe before the Bronze Age, and appear to have been spread primarily by R1b people (=> see The origins of red hair).

AND THIS:

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/08/indo-europeans-preceded-finno-ugrians.html

Indo-Europeans preceded Finno-Ugrians in Finland and Estonia

An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age.

So our Karelian R1a1 hunter-gatherer from 5500 - 5000 BCE most likely spoke an archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language.

This, in addition to what I wrote already before (quote below), perfectly fits the big picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE). Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BC), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

 

[Tomenable]

When it comes to the Armenian Hypothesis:

The problem with it is that Indo-European R1b (P297) and R1a (M417) were already present to the north of Caucasus 7500 years ago, among hunters:

And now let's see what is the Armenian Hypothesis about:

The Armenian hypothesis of the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat, based on the Glottalic theory suggests that the Proto-Indo-European language was spoken during the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE] in the Armenian Highland.

Why should PIE be spoken in the Armenian Highland in 4000 BCE, if genetically Indo-European people lived in Russia already in 5500 BCE ???

So a more probable hypothesis is that PIE Urheimat was in the forest-steppe zone of Eastern Europe - this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2014/08/indo-europeans-preceded-finno-ugrians.html

The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC [4000 - 3000 BCE]. Mainstream scholarship places them in the forest-steppe zone immediately to the north of the western end of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe. Some archaeologists would extend the time depth of PIE to the middle Neolithic (5500 to 4500 BCE) or even the early Neolithic (7500 to 5500 BC), and suggest alternative location hypotheses.

Indo-Europeans preceded Finno-Ugrians in Finland and Estonia

An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age.

So Eastern European hunters who spoke archaic PIE, switched to pastoralism and settled the steppe.

Maybe they also mixed with people south of them (but what hg-s did those people have? because R1a and R1b had already been present in Russia before).